[Closed] the equality of sacrifice

How very timely!

Fantastic, very poignant.

Hmmm, not sure that this has anything to do with equality. I pay tens of thousands of pounds in tax every year. I've never claimed dole in my life (and I hope I never will).

The government has recently announced that they're taking my tax free allowance away so I will be worse off and pay more tax.

Why - so some sponger can have a DVD player and an XBox.

I don't have much sympathy with the picture. Too many people in this country live off the state - and live well.

Or it could be understood this way (and I'm a lot closer to the bottom of that ladder than the top): -

Our Tax System Explained: Bar Stool Economics
Credit for this explanation goes to David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.,
Professor of Economics, University of Georgia.

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do.

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20." Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?'

They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28% savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20 declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, "but he got $10!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I!"

"That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, ladies and gentlemen, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.

Why - so some sponger can have a DVD player and an XBox.

crazy - I'm pretty sure you can play DVDs on an Xbox

BTW - I don't have much sympathy with you having to pay more tax or being "worse off". You sound like you deserve it

DrRS**** - Member

Living up top your name or trolling?

Living on benefits is not living well. Its a pittance and amongst the lowest in Europe.

YOu pay less tax that you would in most of Europe.

These cuts are going to affect the poorest disproportionately

Grievoustim - sorry if I've rattled your cage. But I come from a working class background, studied hard, and worked hard to get a decent job.

I work stupid hours doing something stressful.

And now the government want me to finance the poor becuase they (the government) have made a mess of it.

My salary (and subsequent tax bill) do little for me in the UK. I get no increased voting rights for instance.

The post above from Onzadog kind of sums up how I feel. People are always whining about the rich. The have nots will always criticise the haves - but they need the haves to keep paying the taxes that fund their fags and scratch cards.

These cuts are going to affect the poorest disproportionately

Swallowing the IFS spin TJ?

http://blog.iea.org.uk/?p=4945

A DVD player costs £20. Anyone who can afford one is clearly milking the system

No - I'm not trolling. I just get ****ed off with the amount of tax I pay for no great return.

I get no benefits. I'm even on Bupa with work so I don't trouble the NHS.

I've been paying more than the average household income in tax for years now. I'm not bragging. But I get peeved when the spongers start complaining that I should somehow pay more.

I work hard and I get paid well for that work.

I understand the government needs to tax and I support things like the higher tax brackets. I just get enough of people suggesting I should live on the breadline and donate all my salary in tax so they can live better.

No-one "likes" to pay tax. And I'm no exception. A 1p increase in the basic tax level though has a large effect on me.

And I appreciate that the poor are being hit too - everyones the same. Why tax me more so that they can maintain the living they were used to?

Sorry for the length of response.

I've started to notice some changes already - my next-door takeaway's portions have got smaller. The work local boutique cafe are using cheaper cuts of meat. One of the clients has made 6 redundant from an office staff of eight...

And now the government want me to finance the poor becuase they (the government) have made a mess of it.

Huh? Taxes have always been used to redistribute money. Thre is no change here. The poor are losing a far greater amount than you are with a small amount of extra taxation ( unless you are one of the richest few % in which case you will pay a bit more tax)

Personally, I've always kinda liked Sam Seaborn's take on taxing the rich; as delivered on The West Wing:

... every time your boss got on the stump and said, "It's time for the rich to pay their fair share", I hid under a couch and changed my name. I left my last job making $400,000 a year, which means I paid twenty-seven times the national average in income tax. I paid my fair share, and the fair share of twenty-six other people.

And I'm happy to because that's the only way it's gonna work, and it's in my best interest that everybody be able to go to schools and drive on roads, but I don't get twenty-seven votes on Election Day. The fire department doesn't come to my house twenty-seven times faster and the water doesn't come out of my taps twenty-seven times hotter. The top one percent of wage earners pay for twenty-two percent of this country...

Let's not call them names while they're doing it, is all I'm saying.

TJ - No, you're wrong.

If someone earning say, £50k, and is struggling to pay their mortgage, but is managing, is suddenly hit by an additional £3k in taxation (which is roughly what might happen). Then they might lose their home. Is that fair? No.

Tax hurts everyone.

However even a basic grasp of maths would mean that a 1p rise in tax for someone earning £20k is going to be LESS than a 1p rise in tax for someone paying £30k......

Zulu-Eleven,

well quoted....

DrRS**** - Member

No - I'm not trolling. I just get ****ed off with the amount of tax I pay for no great return.

Right - you don't use the roads? Teh police and judicial services don't keep you safer that you would be without them? etc etc. You actually don't pay much tax compared to to other countries.

I get no benefits. I'm even on Bupa with work so I don't trouble the NHS.

Bupa does not replace the NHS. have an accident biking your Bupa does you no good.

I've been paying more than the average household income in tax for years now. I'm not bragging. But I get peeved when the spongers start complaining that I should somehow pay more.

You are one of the very wealthy in our society then. You can easily afford it

I work hard and I get paid well for that work.

I understand the government needs to tax and I support things like the higher tax brackets. I just get enough of people suggesting I should live on the breadline and donate all my salary in tax so they can live better.

No one is suggesting you should be on the breadline and these cuts are going to be hardest on the poorest people. You are getting off very lightly indeed.

No-one "likes" to pay tax. And I'm no exception. A 1p increase in the basic tax level though has a large effect on me.

And I appreciate that the poor are being hit too - everyones the same. Why tax me more so that they can maintain the living they were used to?

those on benefits are going to have real cuts in their standard of living and are going to struggle even more. Basics like food and heating will become even harder to fund.

You need a large dose of reality.

I just get enough of people suggesting I should live on the breadline and donate all my salary in tax so they can live better.

That is really unfair. Who's suggesting that?

£50 000 and struggling? You make me want to puke. try living on benefits for a while.

1p on income tax - its nothing to you compared to teh cuts that are going to affect teh poor.

I just get ****ed off with the amount of tax I pay for no great return.

I get no benefits. I'm even on Bupa with work so I don't trouble the NHS.

its not about what you should be getting out of it - you get plenty out of this country already thanks to the education it gave you, and the opportunities it gave you (and no doubt your hard work)

Oh and enjoy your BUPA care when you get knocked off your bike and have multiple head injuries, or need a coronary bypass or something - that BUPA care of your is going to come in really handy then isn't it?

Hmmmm,

I do use roads (I pay road tax) and I do use the police. I don't get more service / better service / or any other privelege for paying more though.

TJ - if you can't work out that someone on 20k suffers less from a 1p increase in tax than someone on 30k, than that's probably why you've not got a very good job and don't earn much (an assumption I know, but one based on your rhetoric).

If I lived in Switzerland (which is an option) I'd get a proportional say in how my local Canton was run, so I could choose how my tax francs were spent. That wouldn't be so bad.

But here - I get berated for getting an education and working hard.

I pay tens of thousands of pounds in tax every year

Give up your job, get a job for Minimum Wage, then you'll pay far less in tax, and get a 'better' deal! Simple, innit? 😀

Or you could stop moaning, get on with your life and be thankful that you don't do a [i]really[/i] hard job, like Nursing or something.... 🙄

Actually, out of interest, just what is it that you do?

Er, tim, Bupa would do a coronary bypass......

You should go and visit J'burg if you want to see what your Taxes do buy you - somewhere safe to live where Rape and Murder are not a very real possibility for your family and you still feel scared living behind an electric fence.

Redistribution of wealth = happier society for all

Elfin - if I did that I'd be beaten up by the bowl holders for not donating to their existence anymore.

Dr RS**** experiences "self interest".

Wooh.

You could always **** off to Switzerland I suppose? Oh no UK is actually better after all 🙄

rs**** - if you cannot work out that the more you earn the more disposable income you have therefore the less a tax increase affects you.

And the cuts are a huge % of some peoples income.

If someone earning say, [b]£50k, and is struggling to pay their mortgage[/b], but is managing, is suddenly hit by an additional £3k in taxation (which is roughly what might happen). Then they might lose their home. Is that fair? No.

Maybe they shouldn't try living beyond their means....

But I come from a working class background, studied hard, and worked hard to get a decent job.

That's what they all say.

If someone earns 50k a year and is struggling to pay their mortgage then they are a ****ing idiot.

Yep - anyone over £30k who would be in dire straights with a single digit % loss in income / benefits / tax thresholds has chosen to live beyond their means with no margin for risk.

Ahhhh, disposable income.....

I see now TJ where you're coming from.

If I've disposed of it all on a mortgage and car then there's none left to tax.

It's a bit like a poor person spending their income on fags and lottery tickets - if they get taxed they have to do without.

I'm not getting at people who earn a little - at least they're working. And perhaps there is a fairer system of taxation that protects those that work on lower salaries.

It's the benefit brigade that bug me. Why should they enjoy a nice house, with nice furniture and nice belongings when they've not worked for them?

Someone on £20k would suffer by about £20 a month in tax raises. OK, that makes a difference to some people.

The recent announcements (on top of the one earlier this year cancelling my tax free allowance) costs me about £350 per month. That's slightly harder to swallow when I've got a large mortgage.

Flat landers moan about taxes because they wish to live up north I assume ?

It's the benefit brigade that bug me. Why should they enjoy a nice house, with nice furniture and nice belongings when they've not worked for them?

😆

How many people do you know, are on Benefits?

Boo hoo I'm not happy because I've got slightly less money than before I know I'll blame someone else!

Maybe if you worked even harder, you'd get a promotion, and then more money and you wouldn't have this problem?

Ergo; you obviously can't be working hard enough, if you're not getting a promotion and a pay rise....

Slacker! 😀

That's slightly harder to swallow when I've got a large mortgage.

Move to a smaller house?

Why should they enjoy a nice house, with nice furniture and nice belongings when they've not worked for them?

Sounds like someone has been reading the Daily Mail.

YOu need a large does of reality. Your idea of what living on benefits entails is a long way from the reality and those on benefits are going to be having % cuts in income that are much larger than yours

How much would a family of 4 have to live on on benefits do you think?

So you mortgaged yourself to the hilt without considering what could go wrong - you've only yourself to blame for your 'over optimistic' outlook on your financial situation. Don't blame the unemployed. If they got nothing and you got 5% more, you'd still be in the same situation, just with a 5% bigger mortgage.

DrRS**** - Do you drive an Audi?

I'd guess he drives whatever the neighbours drive, only a slightly newer model bought on HP and crippling himself with more debt.

Ars**** can rant all he likes. All we have to do is absorb it here, and he'll continue to pay his taxes for the benefit of society.

[i]From each according to his ability, to each according to his need[/i] - said by someone cleverer than me...

To be honest, with a name like that he must be a troll?

Onzadog, trouble with using beer as an analogy is that people can do without beer. And the guy that was paying $59 dollars for the beer probably owned the pub....

Er, I've not mentioned my mortgage. I manage my finances very carefully thank you very much. My mortgage is large, but not unmanageable 🙂

No, I don't drive an audi - I have a lovely Ford Mondeo (diesel too to be extra frugal).

Yes, yes I do know people on benefits. I have many friends who live in council houses for instance. They're quite fond of reminding me what a mug I am for paying a mortgage and how well they manage making the council fit ****ing solar panels to their houses.

I hope I'll always earn plenty and be able to provide for myself - it's just a shame others don't follow that example

They're quite fond of reminding me what a mug I am for paying a mortgage and how well they manage making the council fit ****ing solar panels to their houses.

So why not just go on Benefits and get a council house then?

I'm struggling to see what your point is, here...

My point dear boy?

It's been made more clearly by others on this thread. That the rich get bitched at for not paying enough to support the spongers.

I don't want to live in a council flat. I enjoy owning my own place.

so you admit it, you are better off than the people at the bottom?