[Closed] The disUnited Kingdom

It seems that one the whole, Brexiters are not too concerned about breaking up the UK - a bunch of Little Englanders with false memories of Empire, basically.

/grossgeneralisation mode

I have thought for a little while it is the Untied Kingdom and we've been living with an historic typo (quillo?) for hundreds of years.

Interesting interview with Billy Connelly in some of today's papers in this regard.

Was Brexit actually England’s independence referendum?

If they had an ounce of decency it would have been after the results were in.

Who exactly are "they"?

I wonder how that writer would handle if Scotland was ignored in the way he ignores the Welsh?

The final couple of paragraphs are interesting. I do wonder how that certain kind of Scottish nationalist who rants and raves about not having disproportionate power in the UK will handle being a far small fish in the EU.

The problem with going off to read news articles online is sometimes you accidentally read the comments

T<span class="comment-text">his is the "Parkinsons" talking I take it.

****ing prick

Anyway, in response to the OP. Yes probably.

Written as if the opinion of the English is uniformly and united. The thing that

I do think that Brexit will result in the split up of the UK. Not sure on what the final split will be though.

I do wonder how that certain kind of Scottish nationalist who rants and raves about not having disproportionate power in the UK will handle being a far small fish in the EU.

"Don't they know how unimportant they are?!"

> sigh <

“Don’t they know how unimportant they are?!”

> sigh <

Do you need me to use smaller words so you dont need to create strawmen?

dissonance

...I do wonder how that certain kind of Scottish nationalist who rants and raves about not having disproportionate power in the UK will handle being a far small fish in the EU.

Well if we didn't like it, we could leave within a couple of years without asking their permission and having to have uprising after uprising for 300 years.... 🙂

Basically, the people who make the most noises about patriotism and how special the UK is, seem not to give very much of a shit about the UK- almost as if it's just a convenient dogwhistle eh. David Cameron said he was pro-union then post-referendum said that Scottish people shouldn't be allowed power in parliament, but that now seems mild compared to the brexit ultras. It's really weird- kind of like how modern right wing "patriots" are always bashing their own country, they're really recreants rather than patriots.

The biggest loser if the UK breaks up will clearly be Wales.

David Cameron said he was pro-union then post-referendum said that Scottish people shouldn’t be allowed power in parliament

Dont suppose you have a direct quote do you?

dissonance

Dont suppose you have a direct quote do you?

I can't think of one, but his speech immediately after the Scottish referendum made it pretty clear with EVEL.

Nothing against that idea, long since necessary IMO, but it should be backed up with SVSL.

It's kind of obvious anyway. We're outnumbered in Westminster and over ruled over Scottish issues because we are outnumbered by English MPs voting against us.

However we're not here to discuss Scotland's efforts to disentangle itself from the UK, but the readiness of the Brexiteers to dismember the UK to get what the nations of England and Wales voted for, ie leave.

Are Brexiteers going to do the job Scottish independence supporters have been working towards for over 100 years?

I can’t think of one, but his speech immediately after the Scottish referendum made it pretty clear with EVEL.

No it really doesn't. The claim being made was "shouldn't be allowed power" which is rather different than the, admittedly, dogs dinner proposal around separating out English specific law making.

We’re outnumbered in Westminster and over ruled over Scottish issues because we are outnumbered by English MPs voting against us.

Which ones do you have in mind? Its not like the "English MPs" exactly vote in a block.

dissonance

...Which ones do you have in mind? Its not like the “English MPs” exactly vote in a block.

Who they are is irrelevant. They outnumber us whatever their party and they vote against our issues.

But I think you're trying to divert the thread.

Have you seen what the foreign press is saying about Brexit?

There was a good article about this i the Guardian last week.. Now Brexit really is threatening to tear the UK apart

I've always half-joked that what the UK really needs is independence for the South East, and then the rest of us could get on just fine. I wish we'd have had a ****ing referendum on that instead

Could happen. I reckon that if it wasn't for needing the DUP then the tories* would have put the trade border down the irish sea and not thought twice about it. How May must be ruing the silly election she called.

*yes I'm aware that their proper name is conservative and unionist party but it matters not to the likes of the Davis/Mogg/etc brigade, they only look out for themselves

If there is no deal, or even no customs union then SNP will be talking to the EU and will organise their own vote and they will be gone, imagine the switch to Km/H as you drive past Gretna... which would require Scotland either standing up their own currency (v.unlikely) or the Euro !

They outnumber us whatever their party and they vote against our issues.

So some examples? Frankly you are sounding like a certain variant of brexiteer who wants to blame everything on the other. Since the brexiteers cant really use the UK they go for the EU instead.

Have you seen what the foreign press is saying about Brexit?

That its a complete shambles? Not really unexpected is it? Leaving aside everything else a good enough reason to vote remain was my belief it would end up a complete mess. Although to give credit where credit due they have been far worse then I thought was possible.

I think you are the one diverting the thread. This seems to be about how bad the "English" are (ignoring the poor Welsh or all those English who arent in favour plus all those Scots who do want brexit)

I’ve always half-joked that what the UK really needs is independence for the South East, and then the rest of us could get on just fine. I wish we’d have had a ****ing referendum on that instead

Except that London is very strongly pro-remain.

This seems to be about how bad the “English” are…

…at taking into account the views and needs of those living in other countries in the "union" when making major decisions?

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Dont suppose you have a direct quote do you?

"We cannot allow these people to have power in our parliament". "These people" being the SNP, the elected representatives in almost every seat in Scotland.

And he didn't even say it as an attack on the SNP- he used it as an attack on Ed Miliband, as part of the whole demented "a coalition government is a terrible idea and ends up run by the minority party" that he somehow managed to run with while leader of a coalition government.

Now I appreciate that this was all just because David Cameron was a collosal ****, rather than it being an actial attack on the Scots, but that just proves the point even more nicely- he was happy to undermine the union purely to win a couple of votes in a single election that he was already pretty confident he was going to win. He doesn't hate the union, he just really doesn't give a shit about it.

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“These people” being the SNP, the elected representatives in almost every seat in Scotland.

I cant find that specific quote however assuming it is correct it is extremely different from your claim about "Scottish People". That is pretty much brexiteer levels of dishonesty. Given the current mess with the DUP I am not sure he is entirely wrong about the potential for coalitions to go pearshaped either.

at taking into account the views and needs of those living in other countries in the “union” when making major decisions?

and that makes them different from the others either? Are you trying to claim the Scottish were busy thinking hard about whether or not someone living in Doncaster would benefit or not before casting their vote for leave.

You don't think attacking the SNP who 50% of scots voted for in that way is not an attack on the scottish people?  Its clearly saying we don't care about you at all - we are going to ignore your elected representatives.  couple that with the EVEL nonsense and you can see how it looks - and I have never even voted SNP but I tiook that as an insult to alol scots.

Are you trying to claim the Scottish were busy thinking hard about whether or not someone living in Doncaster would benefit or not before casting their vote for leave.

Actually this was quite a common point and one I really struggled with - feeling if voting for independence I was leaving my brothers and sisters in the north of england in the shit.  International solidarity and all that.  This really was a not infrequent theme in the independence debate.

<p>the SNP who 50% of scots voted for</p>

<p>When? I'm pretty sure they have never had a majority share of the vote although I'll stand corrected if this isn't the case.</p>

2015 general election - the one after which Cameron made those statements

SNO  56 of 59 seats on 50% of the vote.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Scotland#2015

It's as if Wales never even existed on the "UK" political radar!

Oh wait ..

No it still doesn't.

<p>TJ - ta, couldn't find that. Must have been thinking of another election.</p>

dissonance

So some examples?...

Come off it. You have obviously been following the process so you know full well, you're just trying diversion, and that is a different discussion.

And it's not about the "bad English". Every nation is perfectly entitled to act on a democratic decision. England's is to leave the EU and there are obstacles in the way.

The media have woken up to Scotland and NI being very big flies in the ointment. (They don't seem to regard the Welsh in that light)

The press are speculating it would benefit the Tory Party to get rid of Scotland and NI because then there would be no obstacles to Brexit, and with just England & Wales to take into account they would be sitting on a majority in England & Wales for the foreseeable future.

(I believe the Irish Times also ran an article along those lines recently)

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I cant find that specific quote however assuming it is correct it is extremely different from your claim about “Scottish People”. That is pretty much brexiteer levels of dishonesty

Bugger off, II give you too much credit to believe you actually think that. It's not any different at all from what I said, as you know since it's for the exact reasons I've already said. He declared that the elected representatives for the overwhelming majority of scots shouldn't have a say in our parliament. Of course, when I say "our" parliament I mean the UK one whereas he obviously meant something very different.

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Now i can feel in my bones the response about "half of scots", so before you try that one, no. The SNP held almost every seat. Your MP is your representative regardless of who you personally voted for (possibly a strange idea to Cameron, but it's still true). So he wasn't just saying that the SNP should have no power despite their democratic mandate- which needless to remind you, was a lot stronger than his own- he was saying that scots in their seats who hadn't even voted for them should also have no power.

But it's not about the SNP or even about Cameron, it's just an example of how these people think. The union is like anything else,just a playing piece in the game that politics is for them.They claim patriotism and fellowship while proving they have none. Cameron was a "patriot" who chose to undermine the country, Farage is a "patriot" who'll happily trash our economy then run off to America when the going gets tough, to hang out with his mate Trump, a patriot who poisons rivers.

Northwind +1

Another +1 for Northwind.

I see the Chair of the Exeter Tories has publicly said NI should be dropped.

Irish perspective.

https://news.cgtn.com/news/3d3d674d3555544f7a457a6333566d54/share_p.html

He declared that the elected representatives for the overwhelming majority of scots shouldn’t have a say in our parliament.

Even this is inaccurate. It was that they shouldnt be part of the government. He was arguing that there was a risk that if they went into government with Labour there would be a risk that they would be able to push policies which would disproportionately benefit them at cost to others. There is a valid argument for this and is why some argue against proportional representation (using examples such as Israel where small parties end up with disproportionate power).

Indeed you can look at the current situation with the DUP and see some of the disadvantages. Personally I would disagree with this argument against PR but to try and portray it as him believing Scottish people not having a say is frankly dishonest.

The blame the English for Brexit whilst ignoring the Welsh entirely and also discounting the people who voted the other way in each country is a tad unpleasant and not dissimilar to the approach taken by some brexiteers.

 it’s just an example of how these people think

Although I disagree about the specific case I wouldnt disagree with your broader claims. However thats no reason to misrepresent Cameron.

dissonance

....The blame the English for Brexit whilst ignoring the Welsh entirely and also discounting the people who voted the other way in each country is a tad unpleasant and not dissimilar to the approach taken by some brexiteers.

Blame? England and Wales are two nations that made a democratic decision on whether they wanted to be in a Union with the nations of the EU. They have every right to do so, and their decision should be respected.

If there is criticism it is for the way it is being bungled. Moldova being a prime example.

On the other hand the nation of Scotland voted to preserve the Union with the EU and is going to fight tooth and nail to prevent a hard Brexit and to have its decision respected.

Then there is the problem of the British border on the island of Ireland. Eire is an EU member, and Brexit means this will suddenly become a hard border. However that flies in the face of the Good Friday Agreement, which is basically a ceasefire not an end to a war. Breaching the GFA is likely to have explosive consequences so a solution must be found. As long as the Tories need the DUP a re-united Ireland is not an option, but then neither is breaching the GFA. Rock & hard place.

The point is that people in the Tory party are seeing that they cannot deliver Brexit as intended because of those problems, but cutting the Gordian Knot would remove those problems.

They cannot just cast NI loose because they lose their govt majority, and then Scotland's MPs become a danger - at the moment they can be safely ignored and jeered at in parliament.

However by casting NI and Scotland adrift at the same time, suddenly there is a comfortable Tory majority in England and Wales and it is likely to stay that way for some time.

That we are seeing this being mentioned in various places in the media suggests that it is something that is being bruited around in Tory circles.

@dissonance Surely if Mr Cameron had meant he didn't want the SNP to have power in government he would have used that word and not parliament.

Blame? England and Wales are two nations that made a democratic decision on whether they wanted to be in a Union with the nations of the EU. They have every right to do so, and their decision should be respected.

No, the UK made a democratic decision. That's what being in a union means.

Of course, the Scottish Conservatives have fared much better in the Scottish government than they have in the Westminster government, and there's no reason to believe they would not continue to do so under the "nationalist extremism" of an independent Scotland!

Tories in Scotland hit a high point of what - 25% of the vote?  without the PR system of holyrood they would have been wiped out

Of course, the Scottish Conservatives have fared much better in the Scottish government than they have in the Westminster government, and there’s no reason to believe they would not continue to do so under the “nationalist extremism” of an independent Scotland!

They are only doing 'much better' because they placed themselves as the 'no independence under any circumstance' party and hoovered up the die hard unionist vote. Post independence it's possible they could better as if it was a close run victory, then in any post independence general election they could mop up a lot of protest votes. There are also a lot of conservatives in Scotland who don't vote tory. Under independence, given a name change/rebranding exercise they could do quite well if they accepted the fact the union was gone.

It's quite possible they could be the party in power for a term or two at least.

To many people in Scotland, within a mere 2 years, the 'Union' purchase ceased to resemble the sales pitch. Membership of The EU was a hard selling point in the indy ref. I never thought I would say this, but perhaps Scotland needs a 'Peoples Vote'

Anyone that knows me is aware that I was staunch in by belief that the people of the UK were pulling in the same broad direction of closer ties with our nearest European neighbours.

I was disheartened when the Brexit result came in, not just at the prospect of these reduced ties, but also that the UK as an entity was in jeopardy, with a sense of having defended it, I feel badly let down by the UK that I obviously did not know as well as I had assumed. I could take parliamentary  decisions I disagreed with, and Tory government after Tory government I did not vote for, however Brexit may be my line in the sand.

I don't see the result of any future indy ref as a reason to celebrate, I am just saddened to see that we are in this place. Believe me, if I am having doubts about the future of the UK, many others like me will also.

I know people who campaigned for no in the independence referendum who will now vote yes if and when we have another

England and Wales are two nations that made a democratic decision

As ransos points out it is the people of the UK who made that decision and plenty within England and Wales went against it. Just as plenty in Scotland and NI went for it.

After all if all of Scotland had voted Remain then we would have remained.

As you yourself seem to acknowledge part of the mess is down to those in NI who did want to leave and whose constituents probably voted majority leave and who definitely acted as a funnel for dubious foreign money to be spent in England for the leave campaign.

NI hasnt, until recently, directly impacted mainland politics in any

Surely if Mr Cameron had meant he didn’t want the SNP to have power in government he would have used that word and not parliament.

Could you provide the specific quote please?