I'm really torn over this:
Kenny Wayne Shepherd seems a pretty cool guy who has spent a very large part of his life touring with the black musicians who inspired him and as he said paved the way for him to have a career playing the music he loves.
Now because of his General Lee tribute car he is deselected from this years Blues Music Awards.
Whilst the NASCAR controversy left a bad taste in the mouth last year this seems a bit different he claims to have painted over the flag on the car quite a while back.
He seems genuine but equally the concerns of the black artists in the awards ceremony seem genuinely outraged by his behaviour.
I think its probably time to ban Primal Scream and burn copies of Give Out but Don't Give Up.
It’s a cool flag but even as a big DoH fan myself I’d think twice about having one on a replica General (which I hope to have one day 🤣). Standard USA flag would look just as good IMO.
Just a good 'ol boy, never meaning no harm. 🙂
He doesn't drive around in it, and painted over the flag some time ago, he says. Depends how long, I suppose. They were remaking the film, flag and all, not so far back.
Now because of his General Lee tribute car he is deselected from this years Blues Music Awards.
Yep. The Battle flag of the confederacy needs to be thrown in the bin. It should be met with equal distaste as the swastika. people with seemingly honest intent are going to be caught up in the blanket actions of organisations trying to distance themselves from it.
If he'd have had any integrity, perhaps he should have removed himself?
The Battle flag of the confederacy needs to be thrown in the bin.
Agreed, but there's a grey area between "remove all current imagery of it" (obviously) and "censored because you in the past had it but no longer do".
When I was a kid I didn't realise gollywog dolls were bad - didn't even realise until long afterwards why they became called "golly dolls". Obviously I can completely understand why they are a Bad Thing, but should my lack of education at the time be used to disqualify me from a current thing?
When I was a kid a mates Dad came back from serving in NI with this flag, which he gave me.
I had no idea what it was, thought it looked cool and put it up on my bedroom wall.
My Oirish Dad was seriously unpleased and had to give me a history lesson.
Perhaps the bloke in question had no idea of the history/meaning when he had it. I mean we all thought DoH was cool as ****, does that make us auto-racists?
People need to get a grip. This wiping people out because of their past mistakes/misdeeds will lead to furthering of the right wing and putting celebrity arseholes in power who speak in soundbites.
Oh..
They were remaking the film, flag and all, not so far back.
That was weird wasn't it - described as a film 'loosely based' on the old TV series .... they remained quite authentic to the original in that one respect.
to be pedantic, he didn't say that though. He said he "permanently covered" it, whatever that means. He also didn't address at all in his response the other things from the Blues Federation statement i.e. the use of the flag on his guitars and "elsewhere" (again, whatever that means!)and painted over the flag some time ago, he says.
It is cool though, as a DoH fan and country music fan I've had one on my bike jacket for years. I even have a flag face mask from cooters place in Tennessee.
Swatikas were hijacked in case you didn't know. Nazi flags is what you meant I think.
This just seems like another excuse to ostracise someone who likely doesn't deserve it.
He said he “permanently covered” it, whatever that means.
Probably a nice stick on brown vinyl roof like my mate's dad's Marina Estate.
Swatikas were hijacked in case you didn’t know
...and quite effectively, so much so that when most people see one on your t-shirt there's a chance they may think "Nazi".
Also: Godwin.
It is cool though, as a DoH fan and country music fan I’ve had one on my bike jacket for years. I even have a flag face mask from cooters place in Tennessee.
You kinda have to remember that post civil war things did get better for minorities in the south for a while during reconstruction. IIRC not long after was actually the high point for representation in government.
Then things went downhill. And the whole thing was whitewashed with films like Birth of a Nation, Gone with the wind etc. Where the south was portrayed as a utopia. It wasn't just some sort of begrudging continuation for a old boys, it was it's wholesale adoption by white racists.
Swatikas were hijacked in case you didn’t know. Nazi flags is what you meant I think.
TBH if you can't see why a swastika might be offensive outside the context of Hinduism, then trying to explain why a confederate flag is equally offensive outside of a history lesson is a waste of time.
Swatikas were hijacked in case you didn’t know.
Your logical fallacy is: Special Pleading.
This is true of course. But when the NF were spraying them on walls in the 70s I don't think anyone thought they were a bunch of nice young lads just celebrating their spirituality. It was because they didn't like brown people. You'd have to be either spectacularly naive, ignorant, or as I rather suspect is the case here employing Olympic-grade massaging of the truth to suggest otherwise. It's akin to me calling you something that would get caught in the swear filter and then protesting that it just means a lady's front bottom and if anything it should be taken as a compliment.
I doubt there is anyone on the planet who would see a swastika and not immediately associate it with Nazi Germany (and yes, I know it prevails innocently in predating art and sculpture today but that's not the same thing at all).
This just seems like another excuse to ostracise someone who likely doesn’t deserve it.
Potentially. It's only relatively recently - like, the last year or two - that I discovered that the flag was problematic. Would people in the US still display them today just because it represents 'the South' I wonder? I'll go ask some Americans.
When I was a kid I didn’t realise gollywog dolls were bad
The nice old lady next door collects them, apparently. She told me she has hundreds. I've not seen them but they must be worth a fortune these days.
She collects witches too, the front window is full of them. And something else. Pigs? Maybe.
Funny things, people.
if you can’t see why a swastika might be offensive outside the context of Hinduism
I'm kinda splitting hairs I know but, it was far more widespread than Hinduism. It crops up all over the shop.
Timing is more relevant, perhaps? Pre vs. post the last 100 years?
Yep. The Battle flag of the confederacy needs to be thrown in the bin. It should be met with equal distaste as the swastika. people with seemingly honest intent are going to be caught up in the blanket actions of organisations trying to distance themselves from it.
Union Jack as well ?. Many peoples around the world did at one time view that as a flag of oppression.
Cougar while I agree with your general sentiments I don't think this is right:
I doubt there is anyone on the planet who would see a swastika and not immediately associate it with Nazi Germany
You see swastikas (though usually the other way round) in lots of places in India and Nepal where I doubt they are really aware of Nazism and it's associated symbols at all, or at least not in any detail.
There are red bricks with swastikas embossed on them I've seen lying around the streets in Nepal. It's meant to be good luck. I'd doubt anyone wondered if that might seem a bit Nazi.
Fair, and I did kind of say that in the second half of the sentence. Probably could have been clearer.
Anyone in the West, then?
Union Jack as well ?
The St George Cross is going the same way. We really should reclaim that at some point. I see one flying I immediately assume they're either a football fan or a racist.
I'll leave the consideration of the Venn diagram here as an exercise for the reader.
Anyone in the West, then?
Yup I'd say so. Though my point is slightly negated by the fact that Mein Kampf is actually a best seller in India 🥺
It's not the same as the Union Jack. That is the representation of a country, and it still represents that for the good and bad things that people from that country have done.
The Confederate flag was created to represent a breakaway state and that state ONLY existed to preserve the keeping of slaves. If it had succeeded, and the country went on to emancipate and become progressive (not saying the UK is progressive anymore before someone jumps in) then it would still be relevant despite past transgressions. However that's not what happened - the Confederacy ended, and if you are pulling that flag out again you're doing it for one reason - to glorify the Confederacy. If you want to be proud of where you're from in the Southern US then your state will have a flag you can use.
You see swastikas (though usually the other way round) in lots of places in India and Nepal where I doubt they are really aware of Nazism and it’s associated symbols at all, or at least not in any detail.
Maybe not, or maybe. Remember that thousands of soldiers came from the Commonwealth to fight, as well as the Gurkhas. And the war wasn't that far away in Burma/Myanmar.
Union Jack as well ?. Many peoples around the world did at one time view that as a flag of oppression.
Context though, the Union Jack wasn't subsequently repurposed as a symbol for white supremacy (except by a small minority).
Context. That's at the heart of the answer but.... It takes consumption and analysis of a broad range of ideas (that takes time and intellect), and it may contradict the analyser's belief system. So for many it falls into the 'too hard' bucket and they go with a meme or emoji instead.
Someone please create a GCSE in critical thinking.
(except by a small minority).
But thats what white supremacists are 😉
And to be honest I have no idea why they think they're supreme 😕 Have you seen them ?, most don't look like they'd make the cut anywhere 😆
if you are pulling that flag out again you’re doing it for one reason – to glorify the Confederacy
I just looked it up. The Dukes of Hazard film was 2005 and there was a direct-to-TV film a couple of years later, both including the General Lee resplendent with its Dixie roof.
If it's universally unacceptable in the US outside of racist / white supremacy circles - and I'm trying to find out from actual Americans - then this is a relatively recent phenomenon. And cultural shifts usually take closer to a generation.
The Confederate flag was created to represent a breakaway state and that state ONLY existed to preserve the keeping of slaves.
It's not that simple though. Some of the people in the south believe it's about their unique shared heritage and culture and 'states rights'. It's mostly wrong and I'm sure plenty of people use the flag as racist dog-whistling but I'm not sure that everyone who flies the flag is a paid-up KKK bigot. That just allows a degree of plausible deniability I think. They're obviously on the wrong side of history though and they will probably look back and realise how stupid the whole thing is.
It's all part of the whole Republican "'Murica **** yeah, muh rights" entitled mantra which most of us can't really understand fully.
It’s all part of the whole Republican “‘Murica **** yeah, muh rights” entitled mantra which most of us can’t really understand fully.
Oh, we can.
Sovereignty? Democracy? We won you lost get over it? Send 'em all back where they came from? Etc etc. Ringing any bells from our own recent history?
Don't kid yourself. The only reason there's more see you next tuesdays in America than here is because it's bigger.
From an American friend now living in the UK:
>>
Got long and ranty: tldr they fly it to piss people off so they can say that the snowflakes are offended by everything by offending everyone with something literally offensive. There is literally no other reason to fly it and by now everyone knows its history, its taught on elementary school across the entire country.
Its beyond racist but southern states still use it because "~☆history☆~" ****ing pokemon has been around longer than the confederates were doing their thing. The confederacy lasted like 5 years - that's it. So its not like it was hundreds of years using it then getting stomped down by some oppression machine.
The people who use it are either ignorant or racist, almost always both. "The war was about more than slavery!", no Karen it was not, "its our history!!" The Starbucks on the corner has been around longer and made more of an impact.
It's currently a way for people to just piss off those in equality groups or "leftist special snowflakes that are offended by everything" to prove that indeed we are offended by this.
Thanks for coming to my rant on asshole Americans. My grandma's boyfriend thinks the confederate flag AND THE ****ING NAZI flag should be hung up if people want to because ~☆history☆~, and above all else he knows its offensive and gets off on it - sooo I see this a lot.
From a Canadian friend:
>>
Here in [British Columbia, 60 miles East of Vancouver] Canada we have a problem with them as well. A neighbour just up the street has one hanging off their balcony, and vandals recently stole a Canadian flag from a cemetery and ran up the Confederate flag in its place (which was promptly pulled down and burned by another person).
Seeing them here, in a country that had nothing to do with the Confederacy, and was actually the end point for many slaves escaping the south, it's really easy to say 100% that they are racist and trying to be provocative, or at the very least ignorant. A former friend of my brother started dating a white supremacist and he had one up in his house. Not much to be ambiguous about there.
I asked my American correspondent if it's fair to suggest that it may be a generational thing, that grandpa might be flying it innocently even if it's commonly known to be problematic by younger people:
>>
I mean, generational as in he is racist so totally fine with it, but everyone I've come across even in their 90s know the history and aren't innocently flying a pretty flag. They're racist and don't care who knows because it was acceptable in their day.
Maybe worth noting that this fine individual also threatened to shoot me and goes out of his way to be as racist as he possibly can be, in a state where "stand your ground" is very much a thing, so he isn't the smartest but does the whole confed thing to provoke as many people as he can then uses his age and being southern as a buy out when he gets in too deep.
Most cases are mildly racist, but these days it seems only the vicious racist still pull it, even the mild ones have gone "yeah no maybe not"
From an American friend now living in the UK:
Honestly that sounds like a perfect example of how hyper-polarised American politics is. Everyone thinks the *other side* is a moron/racist/snowflake (delete as appropriate) without any attempt to understand other viewpoints.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course, and of course I'm no expert on American politics. I only know what I know from various discussion boards / Twitter / Reddit. So I'm no authority on this. I just think that broad brush strokes against a large population (in this case, white deep southerners) has the potential to be... you know... bigoted.
As for flying the confederate flag in Canada. Well, yeah. I'm prepared to believe that's just racist.
It's not even the Confederate flag. The Dixie patriots flying it don't know much about the history they profess to love so much.
Very interesting (and enlightened) southern US take on it from "beau of the fifth". If you've not watched his stuff before, don't be fooled by the southern drawl and good ol' boy, redneck persona. It's a ruse to draw in an audience who wouldn't normally give him the time of day.
Flag meaning depends on the context.
Acceptable
Not acceptable
I watched the Dukes of Hazard film by the way and the issue was addressed.
Oh, we can.
Honestly, I don't think you can. I've spend a lot of time in the US and talked to Americans a lot (being married to one) and the chasm between the middle-class white British reality inhabited by the likes of us and the way that a great many Americans (even the nice ones) see the world.
To me the confederate flag represents the Dukes of Hazard, and in particular Daisy Duke. 😀
I’m kinda splitting hairs I know but, it was far more widespread than Hinduism. It crops up all over the shop.
Indeed, across Europe, it was found on early Christian stone crosses, there were inter-war savings stamps in the U.K. which I believe had swastikas in the middle, and it’s been found among Native American cave art and pictographs, it describes part of their creation myth/stories. It’s common in many Asian countries as a Buddhist symbol, the Third Thumprint of the Buddha, IIRC, and I’ve got a kimono-style dressing gown with a blue graphic pattern that includes small swastikas interlinked with a sort of grid-like pattern. It’s a Sun Cross, supposed to represent the cycle of life.
The Nazis adopted it because of the Aryan super race bullshit they built their ideology around, ignoring the salient fact that Aryans came from the Indian sub-Continent, if my memory serves.
I’m only typing all this because it’s taking my mind off a desperately unhappy situation I’ve found myself in, that I’m trying not to think about.😢
and if you are pulling that flag out again you’re doing it for one reason – to glorify the Confederacy.
Or you think it just looks cool?
Ban the banners!
Or you think it just looks cool?
It's associated with being a rebel, which is always going to be seen as cool by many people. It is quite a pleasing design also.
I don't see how anyone is losing out by just not using it though really - I can see it being pretty upsetting to people who's recent ancestors were segregated/lynched etc
Honestly that sounds like a perfect example of how hyper-polarised American politics is. Everyone thinks the *other side* is a moron/racist/snowflake (delete as appropriate) without any attempt to understand other viewpoints.
Not 100% in agreement there.
It's the same as this country. You've got a roughly 50/50 Right/Left split (with their left being more centrist by European standards). Then you've got the noisy fringe on the Right (UKIP, Britain First, The Tea Party, MAGA).
So it's more like 50% oppose it, 45% are inherently libertarian about it and the majority probably think the fringe is full of lunatics too. And the 5% walking down the street in MAGA hats with an AR-15 waving a confederate flag.
I find the Confederate flag issue an interesting, and slightly murky, one.
Before I say why, let me be clear: if African-Americans say it’s offensive and a hideous symbol of racism, then I accept that. I do not now, nor have I ever displayed such a flag. Finally, I completely understand it’s history, and why it is associated with the things it is.
Now that I have said so, though, I also want to say that I spent every Christmas driving from Winnipeg, Canada to Brownsville, Texas to spend time with my grandparents from the age of 7 to 21. In the course of those journeys, we passed through many of the southern states, and I saw countless Confederate flags. They were just part of the landscape, and to me, they were as harmless as the Dukes of Hazard.
Now, whereas it is clearly impossible to deploy the swastika without ill intent, I can’t help but think that, until the recent, clear indication of its racist overtones, it might have been possible to display the Confederate flag without meaning anything bad by it.
If, once told, you continued to do so, that would be different; but I am not sure that everyone I saw with one in their pickup truck window was being deliberately racist. Contributing to a racist landscape and culture, perhaps, but not individually, deliberately racist.
I hope that makes sense, but if I am wrong I will be happy to withdraw, because I do believe that wherever racism is pointed out it should be eradicated. I definitely DON’T want to apologise for racism and it’s symbols!
EDIT: Are you alright, @CountZero?
Now, whereas it is clearly impossible to deploy the swastika without ill intent, I can’t help but think that, until the recent, clear indication of its racist overtones, it might have been possible to display the Confederate flag without meaning anything bad by it.
I suspect that some people don't necessarily mean anything bad by it but you'd have to be pretty flippin ignorant to think it was all harmless. I mean, you don't fly a British flag in Northern Ireland do you without knowing you're making a statement.
And as discussed, it's not really a historical emblem of that part of the world. It was made to idenitfy the states wanting to own slaves, and it was resurrected later by racists as a clear racist move.
It’s the same as this country. You’ve got a roughly 50/50 Right/Left split
Not really. The split you mention is how we vote, because we're forced to vote for one of the two main parties in most cases, at least in England and Wales. But actual people aren't split down the middle. There are a lot of people who are left of centre in political terms - look at support for the NHS or animosity towards fat cats - and a lot of people who are very right in social terms - racism etc. It's all very mixed up. And the distribution of ideas in America is very different.
Flag of the Confederate States of America (The Confederate Flag)
Battle Flag of the Confederacy.
History. Learn some
In a similar kind of way, I am finding myself torn over my favourite Fred Perry polo.
It's the iconic black and yellow classic and I've owned it 10+ years
But it has now apparently become the uniform of the Proud Boys. This fact had gone completely under my radar until I read the article linked below. I'm now torn as to whether I should continue to wear it in public, or consign it to the back of a dusty drawer? I've only worn it the once since reading that article and did feel a little self-conscious. 🙁
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/28/fred-perry-withdraws-polo-shirt-adopted-by-far-right-proud-boys+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=u k">Fred Perry withdraws polo shirt adopted by far-right Proud Boys
History. Learn some
Pedantry. Learn some.
