MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
the mirage family are good looking paper aeroplane jet
had this as a 1/32 kit as a kid, couldn't believe it could get of the ground carrying that !
anyone remember the cheesy french tv show about two mirage pilots ?? or am i imagining it 😕
The stats prove the F15 to be the best fighter but for looks I'd have to go with the Hunter.
One memory that has always stayed with me was at an early 70's Farnborough air show (the very wet one when the Concorde prototype made an appearance), we were walking along the flight line when a Lightning came from behind us and he hit reheat and just pulled it vertical. Absolutely staggering at the time.
The thing with jets is when you sit in a Vampire or Hunter you realise that compared to the 40's piston aircraft they replaced the all round visibility is so much better - the pilots must have found it like night & day especially on the ground.
The thing with jets is when you sit in a Vampire or Hunter you realise that compared to the 40’s piston aircraft they replaced the all round visibility is so much better – the pilots must have found it like night & day especially on the ground.
And much quieter, practically silent by comparison to sitting right behind a 1500hp V12.
The performance of the Lightning was staggering for the time. It really wasn't until the F-15 that it was surpassed, amazing for an aircraft designed in the 1950's
Always loved these though:
The twin canted tail just made it look almost sci-fi.
Not quite an X-wing but close enough!
And much quieter, practically silent by comparison to sitting right behind a 1500hp V12.
And the vibration......I was very ill in a Dakota 🙁
It really wasn’t until the F-15 that it was surpassed, amazing for an aircraft designed in the 1950’s
Cold War aircraft were staggering, even now. Some (like the SR71 Blackbird) still hold aviation records today. The push for one-upmanship, technological breakthroughs, materials engineering really made massive leaps in such a short space of time.
And they were designed on paper, with pencils and drawing kits, not with the aid of supercomputers!
Landing at night, on a rocking ship in bad weather with a B43 strapped to your belly…pretty bloody terrifying…
Especially with John McCain around. This is one of the many Skyhawks he destoryed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_USS_Forrestal_fire#Unstable_ordnance_received
The ejector seats can be used from the ground.
I always thought it was a pity the F20 Tigershark never found a buyer.
Surprised not more love for the Tornado. Proper, long-standing workhorse and one of the last jets that could be fixed with a spanner and enthusiasm
need more boomage...
my dad did his national service as a vampire engine fitter.
Les Chevaliers du Ciel, Klunk:
The stats prove the F15 to be the best fighter
Only if you believe the American stats. I don't and give the prize to the MIG 15.
The F-20 was built specifically as an export aircraft. When it was was developed the US wanted a simpler fighter / multirole aircraft that they could sell to their allies without worrying about giving away their really high end tech.
So they designed the F-20, which was itself based on the F-5 to be a simpler aircraft without all the bells and whistle (mainly avionics) of other US fighters at that time.
Then US policy changed and it was decided that they would flog the F-16, F/A-18 and even the F-15 to pretty much any ally who had the cash.
The F-20 was left with no customers
On the subject of mirages...
(That's from some french film - if you watch that youtube video, you've seen all the good stuff in the film! None of it is CGI as well...)
Surprised not more love for the Tornado. Proper, long-standing workhorse and one of the last jets that could be fixed with a spanner and enthusiasm
I posted a pic on page 2!
It was the aircraft I grew up with really - my grandfather lived near Peterborough and there were (still are) loads of RAF bases round there so we used to get Harriers, Buccaneers, Jaguars, Lightnings, Phantoms all the time. But that was right at the end of their life, they were all being phased out and replaced with the Tornado so that was massively new and exciting. I mean, to me as a young kid they were all massively exciting to the extent that my very traditional grandparents gave me a right telling off when I leapt up from the dinner table and rushed to the window to watch planes go over. Didn't get any pudding for that. 🙁
But yeah, Tornado from then on really. Harriers lasted until late 2000's or so.
They just look right:
[img] 
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The Sea Vixen FAW2 looked mean, but as a fighter I'm not sure how good it was and the losses due to accidents were somewhat alarming.
While we're on the subject of memories, I remember a Harrier landing in front of me on a roof in Birmingham city centre, it must have been around 1970 but Google yields nothing.
This is a very old video and not the best quality but set to that music, it's very impressive. French Mirage fighters again.
The performance of the Lightning was staggering for the time.
There’s more to a fighter than straight line performance...the lightning wasn’t a turner. Nor was the Tornado F3. They were both essentially missile platforms-interceptors. A true fighter needs to turn.
Warthogs may be tough but I saw one crushed like a tin can by a crocodile the other night
One memory that has always stayed with me was at an early 70’s Farnborough air show (the very wet one when the Concorde prototype made an appearance), we were walking along the flight line when a Lightning came from behind us and he hit reheat and just pulled it vertical. Absolutely staggering at the time.
I was at that show with me Dad!
There’s more to a fighter than straight line performance…the lightning wasn’t a turner.
My dad (flew for the RAF in Hunters, Lightnings, Phantoms) said that of all three, the Lightnings was both the best and worst A2A, it had huge amounts of surplus energy that didn't need to be particularly "managed" so you could force people to fight on your terms, or get out of a fight relatively unscathed. but if you let things get low and slow, or were tempted to fight on other peoples terms, you were pretty much a sitting duck, or just no hope in that environment. The airplane he always hated fighting against was the Buccaneer, he maintains to this day that they defy the normal rules of physics that apply to everyone else.
Edit, d'oh forgot, The Lightning didn't have the tightest of turns, but it also didn't slip, and had enough energy on tap to just push it around, so as a opponent you've either got to turn inside it, and hope that you keep up, and within range and missile envelope. Otherwise the Lightning just ****s off into the distance.
I assume we're all desperate for the release of TopGun 2 then?
I assume we’re all desperate for the release of TopGun 2 then?
I feel the need...
There’s more to a fighter than straight line performance…the lightning wasn’t a turner.
Their job was Cold War stuff. Get up to height as fast as possible and shoot down the hoards of invading Soviet bombers that would be coming over the horizon. The "acceptable loss rates" were astronomical - indeed it was expected that many would simply run out of fuel and drop out the sky with the pilot being rescued from the North Sea.
They were literally not designed with anything else in mind. High and fast, shoot down bomber, bug out (if you still had fuel).
Protect the V Bomber bases.
If the Bombers needed 4 minutes to scramble I guess that the Fighters had to survive for 4 minutes and 1 second.
The Lightning was designed to be an interceptor rather than a fighter - hence why it's pretty much a case of strapping a pilot and weapons onto a couple of big jet engines.
Oh, and like of Fighter pilots of his generation, the airplane they all had nightmares about? The MiG-21. Fast, small, difficult to spot, good weapons, good turning, robust. My dad reckoned that in good hands the 21 could hold it's own against pretty much anything NATO could throw at it.
While we’re on the subject of memories, I remember a Harrier landing in front of me on a roof in Birmingham city centre, it must have been around 1970 but Google yields nothing.
One landed at Pebble Mill once, I think, but pretty sure it wasn't on the roof.
I assume we’re all desperate for the release of TopGun 2 then?
Yes! 🙂
Never knew too much about the Buccaneer, amazing to think it was used successfully in the first Gulf war something like 40 years in service.
Pilots seemed to like it.
Never knew too much about the Buccaneer, amazing to think it was used successfully in the first Gulf war something like 40 years in service.
Have a read of John Nichol's book, Team Tornado.
He was one of the guys shot down in Desert Storm and held captive but on release, he transferred from bomber to fighter (Tornado F3) and between him and his former pilot John Peters, they wrote a second book about general RAF life on their respective Tornado squadrons and it's got some amazing stories in there, including a chapter on Buccaneers.
Nothing like getting the wheels up early at 0:38!
Yeah you don't want to get them up TOO early though!
The Lightning was actually designed as a high speed research aircraft....adapted to be an interceptor. The Tornado F3 was originally a low level bomber, adapted to an interceptor role to fulfil our orders (we ordered way too many bombers).
The Typhoon was designed specifically to intercept the Bears over the North Sea; a friend wrote the spec for it. It’s been successful ful in other roles, however.
It's a terrible shame that the Bruntingthorpe site mentioned in the previous video has been purchased by a car storage business, who apparently are paid 50p per car per day to store thousands of car on the runways etc, very lucrative business, it seems. As a consequence all the aircraft preservation groups have been given notice to leave, inc the VC10 group and the LPGs, although hopefully the latter may be able to find a different area of the site. The fast taxi day last August was truly awesome (and ear-splitting!) but may have been the last one. C-19 has cast doubt on this years show and there certainly won't be another afterwards. Assuming it does go ahead this year I urge you all to go and see these Cold War beasts firing up in anger for their very last time.
Yeah you don’t want to get them up TOO early though!
Eeek! I think I read somewhere that that was caused by a failure of the 'weight off wheels' sensor.
hols2
MemberEspecially with John McCain around. This is one of the many Skyhawks he destroyed.
You know this is complete alt-right conspiracy theory horseshit, right?
Not a fighter, but this video! Skip to 1:20!
I’m not sure if this contravenes forum rules etc but this link gives a pdf version of an SR71 book that’s currently £400-odd on Amazon.
I have read that courtesy of a linked PDF on this very forum from several years ago, and it is mighty fine. 😉
Cheers creakingdoor, got in there before it's shut down. There's another plane book in the link that I've also downloaded.
I don't think it's going to affect the sales of Sled driver as I think he only sells a few each year at a high cost.
This is an interesting read - he seems to suggest the Lightning is better than you think in a turning fight.
https://www.xs420.com/lightning-memories-bill-beardsley.html
That SR71 book linked to above is fantastic. Well worth a read.
I'm surprised there has only been one mention each for the F22 and the Eurofighter Typhoon. The F15 might be a fine aircraft for its generation but in air to air combat against the most modern platforms it would probably not fair so well. This assumes that the tactics for each have been fully developed, there have been several examples in training, of older less sophisticated fighters besting the latest technologically more sophisticated jet fighters, however once the tactics have been developed the more modern fighter would win on the vast majority of occasions.
There is a reason that new fighter platforms are developed, if they were no better than their predecessors they wouldn't make it into full production. Of course cost is a factor, hence the F22 production facilities have largely been dismantled.
Surprised the Widowmaker has only had one mention. Looks like something Steve Zodiac would have designed and as for that spine tingling howl while taxiing.
They used to get maintenance work done at Prestwick in the early seventies and many are the weekends I spent dossing in the golf course bunkers just so I could drool.
Surprised the Widowmaker has only had one mention.
Are you referring to the F104? That thing looks like it shouldn't even get airborne!
I have always liked the Saab Gripen capable, low cost and developed by a relatively small nation.
I had the good fortune to be working at the Saab factory on the day of the Gripen E first flight, 2016?
Impressive to see and put my customers in a good mood to sign off my work. 😀
That thing looks like it shouldn’t even get airborne!
I thought that was the problem in German service?
The Starfighter was a handful, but I wouldn’t try this in anything else (or, for that matter, a Starfighter😮)
Video posting fail!
I thought that was the problem in German service?
Indeed, staying airborne also proving a challenge.
Hence the nickname.
Here's that Starfighter video from above.
You know this is complete alt-right conspiracy theory horseshit, right?
You know his father was stationed at this base when this happened, right? Just stating the facts, you draw your own conclusions.
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A much loved album. Played surprisingly frequently.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Lockheed_and_the_Starfighters
Tonkas hold a special place, but times change. 
JSF is such a huge leap forward in capability.
JSF is such a huge leap forward in capability.
Yeah, but every time I see a picture of one, I'm reminded of these.
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Talking of McCain have recently been reading about the fire on USS Forrestal (actual history though not conspiracy stuff 😉). Amazing that the yanks could get basic stuff like damage control and firefighting so badly wrong after all their experiences in the Pacific. And it was made very much worse by the explosion of very old and obsolete bombs, but they’d been given these due to the huge amounts of ordnance they were getting through on bombing raids..
Hence the nickname.
Didn’t they also call it the tent peg?
Didn’t they also call it the tent peg?
I believe so. Something to do with it being long, thin and straight, and driving into the ground quite well.
Bearing in mind it held all sorts of speed records back in the day it's interesting comparing the thrust from it's engine to the F35's powerplant. It's also an eye-opener looking at the wing area of each.
Having realised how sad that all sounds, I'll get my coat...
Didn’t they also call it the tent peg?
I believe so. Something to do with it being long, thin and straight, and driving into the ground quite well.
So nothing to do with the ejector seat firing downwards and driving the pilot into the ground then.
Are you referring to the F104? That thing looks like it shouldn’t even get airborne!
Unless you’ve actually been close enough to touch one, you cannot believe just how thin the wings are! They don’t have a normal aerofoil shape, they’re a stretched diamond section, and the leading and trailing edges are, quite literally, a knife edge.
The one I had a chance to walk round at Bruntingthorpe has plastic covers along the wings to prevent people slicing themselves open if they walked into the wings without paying attention. It didn’t have an engine, but plans are afoot to preserve the airframe, because the alloy used corrodes very easily, obtain an engine and do fast runs down the runway on open days, like they do with the three Lightnings they have there.
I remember watching a Luftwaffe display of two F-104’s at the RIAT at Fairford one very wet and cloudy weekend. They were doing fast passes at about 100’ with one aircraft upside down above the other as a mirror-image, which in those conditions was terrifying to watch, with their history!
So nothing to do with the ejector seat firing downwards and driving the pilot into the ground then.
Not by the G model which the Luftwaffe bought, and which had a conventional seat, no.
I imagine the lack of wing area made it ride quite well at 100ft.
And the vibration……I was very ill in a Dakota
Had a thirty-minute flight in one once, at an air display at Wroughton airfield where the Science Museum has an extension. Fantastic flight, loved it to bit, and watching the wingtips waving gently up and down was a never to be forgotten sight.
The airplane he always hated fighting against was the Buccaneer, he maintains to this day that they defy the normal rules of physics that apply to everyone else.
Incredible aircraft, I was at Farnborough with my dad once, I guess I was probably about eight or nine, so maybe’62-63? Anyway it was a damp day with low cloud, and the Navy did a low flypast with three groups of planes, first was three Supermarine Scimitars, followed by three Sea Vixens, then three Buccaneers; they were a bit behind the Sea Vixens, and were motoring, with grey compression clouds forming around them, then the third one came in behind, I’d watched the first two go by, and wasn’t expecting the third one, as I turned my head all I could see was a large fuzzy grey blob, with the plane’s nose poking out, it’s wingtips, the top of the tail and the airbrake cone sticking out the back, making a sort of humming, whistling sound. Until it had just passed, then there was this almost bang and a tremendous roar, I’d never heard a noise like it! It made quite an impression... 😁
I remember a little cartoon in the programme, it showed a Buccaneer with a submarine conning tower and periscope bolted to the top. 🤣
I’ve spent hours hunting for the footage I saw on the BBC news once of Buccaneers taking part in a Red Flag competition in the Nevada Desert, shot from an American gun-camera. All you could see was the desert floor with scrub, then first one, then the other Buccaneer would pop up into view, then disappear again, reappearing again a bit closer, banking at a level close enough to the ground the wingtips were raising vortices, and the exhaust was lifting a dust trail. All you could hear was the hyper-excited chatter of the crews on the gun-cameras about these jets coming in at zero feet. I can still remember it pretty clearly, and there are online references to it, but nobody can find it, sadly.
☹️
Especially with John McCain around. This is one of the many Skyhawks he destroyed.
Just reading the linked Wiki article would have proved that to be completely bogus! He was actually sat in an A4 Skyhawk that was hit by the missile! He was lucky to escape as he was strapped in ready to take off, managed to get out of his cockpit, slide down the nose and off the jet. The pilot next to him wasn’t so lucky.
The culprit was an F4 Phantom parked opposite.
Proves that it’s alway best to check these things by actually reading about it; I hadn’t read about the accident before, I only had some very vague recollection of a carrier fire.
@creakingdoor - I didn’t know that the car storage was taking over the whole site! That means the car and bike testing has finished there as well
I visited Bruntingthorpe on quite a few occasions to deliver cars, on one trip I found myself with nearly two hours to kill before being picked up because another member of my team had some sort of problem, so it was spent happily wandering around all the aircraft parked there, and the Lightning hangar, taking photos and getting to sit in the cockpit of a small jet that was being worked on. And being paid as well. Happy day, that was! 😁
The Super Guppy is really something close up!
@countzero
I think the simple economics of what is planned mean that most of the site will be non-aviation, but I'm not sure about the testing. It's all a bit up in the air I think, but there is hope that the Lightning preservation group will be able to relocate to another area that hasn't been purchased. Where they'll do the fast taxis though is another matter as there'll be thousands of Datsuns parked along all hard stuff. There's hope of relocating the LPG to another airfield but that's not really viable for the VC10, the Victor or the Guppy.
I did read on another forum (pprune) that maybe the Victor could fly out, bearing in mind relatively recent history! 😅
Agree about the Super Guppy, remarkable machine. All cables and winches, and huuuuge inside, with a tiny cockpit. The guys restoring it were fighting a losing battle against the elements, and were telling me about some kind of special paint that it needed that was a zillion £ per tin, so funding was also a big issue. As has been shown with the Vulcan for instance, restoring and keeping old aircraft running is a quick route to financial destitution!
Btw, all this talk of John McCain and I thought it was referring to the Die Hard potty-mouth! Is it just me?
Btw, all this talk of John McCain and I thought it was referring to the Die Hard potty-mouth! Is it just me?
You're getting your chips and toothpaste mixed up
He was actually sat in an A4 Skyhawk that was hit by the missile!
That's what he claims, but if you try to check with actual witnesses, you'll find they're all either dead or have been institutionalized. Convenient, don't you think?
All the best pilots liked the F104 because it was so fast but even the great Chuck Yeager almost came to grief in one. Mind you it was modified with rocket thrusters so it could get to the edge of space but when he got there despite attitide thrusters installed in the nose to compensate for the lack of aerodynamic force on the normal flight surfaces he still lost control and had to eject. His parachute caught fire and the molten nylon dripping down burnt his head quite badly but he walked away.
When the CIA wanted a spy plane in a hurry to fly over the Soviet Union Kelly Johnson's Lockheed Skunkworks took the F104 which Johnson had designed then stretched the fuselage and stuck a pair of glider wings to it and the U2 was born. Once you know that and compare pictures of the planes its quite obvious.
More on the F-104G: apparently the F-84 the Germans had before it had a worse accident record.
There's lots of reasons why the Luftwaffe had so many accidents with the F104. Not least it was the biggest single operator, (I think it had nearly 1000 planes, which was something like 30% of the total ever made) second, the pilots of the Luftwaffe at the time, were pretty inexperienced. The Luftwaffe had been disbanded from '45-56, so most of the pilots flying the 104 had little institutional experience of these sorts of really fast really complex jets just 10-15 years after they'd reformed. Thirdly, the weather and external issues (bird strikes, etc, they trained in sunny California, and then had to fly in rainy miserable norther Europe) played a big part, but still most were pilot errors. and Lastly it was designed (a lot like the Lightning) as a clear weather day interceptor, but the Germans had to use it for pretty much everything, including very low level bombing.
I imagine the lack of wing area made it ride quite well at 100ft.
One of things that made it hard to fly was it's threshold speed which was something mad like 200kts. My dad stationed at Gutersloh in Germany remembers a really bad day when there was a NATO exercise there, and as happened so many times flying was scrubbed as the weather turned bad. Well, some of the Italians were playing the "Red" air-force had taken off already (in not too bad weather) and were now having to recover back to Gutersloh in pretty skanky low cloud. I think at least 3 Italian 104's were lost either pilots ejecting as they were running out of fuel trying to land in pretty appalling conditions and I think one crashed. These were not bad pilots either, I think the Italians used some of their more experienced pilots given the German experience. My Dad also said that all the F104 pilots he knew were the smallest guys...The Lightning's cockpit was "a bit snug" but the 104 cockpit was apparently teeny.
Hmmm, there's a big difference between "best fighter ever" and "coolest fighter ever".
*pedant mode on*
I think people are confusing 'best' for 'cool'. A fighter needs massive thrust, huge amounts, and a good wing to be in with a chance of qualifying for the former. Other factors will be its actual turn rate, weapon systems etc.
The F104 is a contender for the latter category but lacks one of the essential ingredients to qualify for the former: decent wings. Same as the lightning.
The Buccaneer and Harrier had trick nozzles/wing blown lift, but those won't help you in a turning fight, which disqualified them from the list. They might have interesting slow speed antics, but they would be sitting ducks against many better and more powerful platforms.
The Jaguar lacked any thrust or wing, was an advanced trainer converted to light bomber, so can't be considered in the "best" and IMHO the "cool" category too.
The venerable Tornado F3, optimised for low level bombing, had neither the wings nor sufficient thrust at altitude to qualify for entry into the "best" category, but arguably does for the "cool" category.
Typhoon has the thrust and agility to qualify.
Ground attack types, such as the SU-25 aren't fighters and need to be included in other "best ever" contests.
*pedant mode off*
Anyway aren't they all lovely machines?! 🤣
and Lastly it was designed (a lot like the Lightning) as a clear weather day interceptor,
Oh come on. Not sure about the 104 but the Lightnings sole purpose in life was to intercept Soviet bombers..24/7 whatever the weather - which more often than not was crap. What good would that have been if its operations were limited due to weather....unless we had a pact with the Soviets that they wouldn't attack us during inclement weather. It was a full bore all weather interceptor. In that role it was a great aircraft...in any other role it was not so good.
The F104 was designed as an air to air fighter based on a spec that came from pilots out of the Korean War where their aircraft were out manoeuvred by the much faster Soviet Migs, so what they craved the most at that point was more speed. Unfortunately Lockheed over delivered on the Speed bit and under delivered on all the other attributes...just a poorly designed aircraft designed for an earlier theatre of combat. So not a great fighter whichever way you look at it. Just like the Tornado...great aircraft for what it was originally designed for - probably the best in the world...not so good at the roles it eventually found itself having to perform. Spoke to a GR1 pilot who was in Gulf war 1. With joint operations in the Gulf with US F16's the missions were high altitude bombing. Unfortunately since the Tornado was designed for low level bombing it could't get above 26k feet in the heat of the desert when fully loaded with external stores, whereas the F16's were up at 30k feet. Severely hampered the joint missions.
Agree with you Wobbliscott 👌🏼
And that is the problem with a lot of multi-role aircraft; jack of all trades... Every multi-role plane is a compromise that impacts its ability to do something else.
I would previously have voted for the A-10 (because it is freaking awesome at what it does) but the definition above counts it out (because what it does is close air support and tank killing). Maybe the F-16 then...
Oh come on
Aye fair enough, I should have said something along the lines of "It was pretty limited in it's role, just like a lot of Gen2 fighters that didn't have great technology to fly in anything other than clear weather, like the Lightning".
One of the v limiting factors of the Lightnings was the IA-23 which was a pretty bloody rubbish radar. it's range was something like 3 miles, (I think red top missles doubled that) and I think outside of a 40degs cone, it wouldn't see anything so in anything other than gin clear skies, and right up behind what you want to shoot down, it had trouble locking onto it. (I'm pretty sure my dad wasn't alone in thinking that the best thing about both firestreak and redtop was that they made the lightning nicer to fly ie, better handling and aerodynamics) This was true of pretty much a lot of this sort of technology back in the 60s and 70s. On paper/in theory it was great, in practice a lot of it was just rubbish that didn't work very well
I spent a load of time with the pilots that flew these jets in my younger years, and there's endless stories about how bits of kit wouldn't work as advertised.
And that is the problem with a lot of multi-role aircraft; jack of all trades…
I disagree....
The F15/16/18 whilst being multi role make great fighters due to their inherent design and the US tradition of huge engines. They also make great attack jets too. But remember the US have a separate, dedicated, bomber capability.
The Jag and Tornado were never considered to be multi role...they were types re-purposed to a completely different role to which they were originally designed (Trainer/Bomber repectively.
Harrier and Buccaneer all had foundations in the low level attack role; a role that has almost polar opposite requirements to those that that make a capable fighter.
Typhoon was an interceptor in concept, and was designed with high agility and had some decent engines. It only became multi role for semi-political/commercial reasons and that was a painful process but I believe it's now highly capable.
You can design multi role, but it needs to be done at the drawing board, not years down the line to save a few quid.