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people are missing the point here. It's not that they avoid tax its that in doing so the don't get off scot free they instead replace one burden of tax with the burden of hoops and hurdles and work arounds linked to offshore money which don't seem to benefit them too much either.
Which is one reason why I don't do Apple, because if I did, I'd feel really stupid paying out so much for something that cost so little to produce.
Well you ride a bike I assume?
Do you [i]really[/i] want to know how much stuff like gear cables and inner tubes cost? I can assure you the profit margin is a lot higher than 58%
EDIT
I've just worked it out. You wouldn't believe me.
It is a disgrace.I agree. Corporate tax avoidance is wretched! Once the employees have been paid a good wage, share holders paid out too. Then paying 25-35% of the remaining profit should be viewed as a duty of Apple. They shouldn't even have to be chased for it. But then again, while I don't buy Apple, there appears to be no general appetite to boycott the brand.
Pretty much how I feel about it. A company makes huge profits, selling over priced toys on the back of modern day slave labour and paying hardly any tax.
"But have you seen the iphone 6!"
Ah, ok, all is forgiven. Carry on. Just as long as I have my shiny new phone that works no better than the one I bought 18 month ago 🙄
Apples business model sums up a lot of what is wrong with the world. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer and the people in the middle don't give a shit as long as they have fancy new toys to play with.
Modern day bread and circuses.
I really don't fall for this, 'Apple StarbucksAmazon' not paying tax bollox, every transaction they make here is taxed at 20% by this bloody Government, it's called vat. contrast that with 8% in Washington State.
In fact contrast it with the 8% that vat started out at or 15%, then 17.5% and now 20%.
To do what with?
Feed a veritable army of bureaucratic waste and an unbelievably bloated Public Sector stretching from here right up the gravy train to Brussels.
Pay Tax after a fifth of the retail value has already gone - **** them, I wouldn't pay either.
As for apple, it's now the modern day Microsoft, contrast it to the early days as the rebel alliance, Yosemite absolutely sucks, the iPhone 6 is absurdly to big and they're quietly falling behind computing products like the windoze 10 thing that clips in and out of a keyboard dock forget its name.
But I wish I'd bought shares in it all those years back
Yes, they're not on £30k a year for a 35 hour week and all driving BMWs, but relative to their families it's a pretty good deal.
Crikey - do people really survive on that little?
Selling shiny clever things, that nobody really needs,
Its incredible that they make so much money and yet don't sell anything that's mission critical to running a modern economy. Apple and all their products could disappear overnight and commerce would still function, transport would continue running, hospitals would still treat people etc. Now try that if Microsoft, Oracle or SAP disappeared.
I'm sure Apple is a huge bubble waiting to burst.
What is amazing is how a single product can completely transform a company that was a bit of a lost cause in the mid 90's.
The ipod?
To do what with?Feed a veritable army of bureaucratic waste and an unbelievably bloated Public Sector stretching from here right up the gravy train to Brussels.
NHS, Education, Roads, subsidising good things, making people happy, fixing shit....
I'll pop you down for a pint with Nigel shall I.....
Everyone else pays VAT - though I'd be interested to see what proportion of the VAT collected ends up paid in Tax and not accounted away.
Apple don't pay 20% VAT on everything they sell. They charge the consumer 20% VAT at point of sale but then deduct the VAT on all their costs (parts, services etc), so only pay the exchequer on the difference...
I really don't fall for this, 'Apple StarbucksAmazon' not paying tax bollox, every transaction they make here is taxed at 20% by this bloody Government, it's called vat. contrast that with 8% in Washington State.
@derek as per @footflaps VAT is a tax paid by the consumer, ie us. Most countries also have a tax on corporate profits its just that in today's world they are too easily avoided.
I've got to say, I agree with some of the comments here. What's the point in making huge amounts of profit just to have it tied up and fairly inaccessible in an offshore bank somewhere?
@notmyrealname, but they can do pretty much whatever they want with the money, it's totally accessible and isn't tied up at all. That's a big part of the the problem.
They could buy Greece.
They could buy Greece.
Pretty sure we could club together on STW and buy Greece....
I'm sure Apple is a huge bubble waiting to burst.
...and everyone was predicting Samsung would kill them off. But the reverse is happening.
[i]I really don't fall for this, 'Apple StarbucksAmazon' not paying tax bollox[/i]
Perhaps try to think of it this way. If instead of a company sitting on a huge mountain of offshore cash that nobody can use. Imagine there was a company holding vast quantity of another useful resource which others could use/need. What would people say then?
It isn't even as if I'm suggesting that Apple should hand all that cash over. But rather that they should pay-up 25-35% in CT.
If Apple really are sitting on $200 billion, then perhaps Obama should swoop in with a wind fall tax on the US operation. Then apple would have to draw-down from it's offshore fund.
**I'm sure it's not that simple in reality, but you may see what I'm getting at**
I can't see why some of it isn't re-paid to shareholders at the very least. Seems like the top dogs are taking everyone to the cleaners at Apple e.g.
US technology giant Apple has awarded its new retail chief Angela Ahrendts a pay package in 2014 was [b]$73 million[/b] (~64M in shares).
and
When Cook succeeded co-founder Steve Jobs as CEO in 2011, he received compensation of [b]$378m[/b], one of the biggest pay packages on record, boosted by $376.2m in stock awards that he will get in over a decade. On top of that Tim Cook was paid nearly [b]$10M in 2014[/b].
They make Bankers and Footballers look positively poor 🙄
Is an interesting read!
3x as many iOS devices now than PCs when windows 95 launched.
Forget Greece. Numbers are almost Denmark's GDP.
Imagine if Apple did create it's own state...... It would be wonderful, everything.... [i]would just work![/i]
😀
and a pint would cost 5x that of a half...
I'm astounded that they can make so much money be selling such mediocre kit.
Is it not something to do with Apple being a brand that people want to own / be associated with and as such they can overlook the product to some extent?
iolo - Member
They make some great kit.
Yes it's overpriced but it just works so well.
people that come out with the just works mantra shall be first up against the wall come my revolution! 😆
[i]Is it not something to do with Apple being a brand that people want to own / be associated with[/i]
Eerrmmmm... what was the second question?
😯
Solo - Member
Imagine if Apple did create it's own state...... It would be wonderful, everything.... would just work!
*name goes in the list!* 😆
Solo - Member
I really don't fall for this, 'Apple StarbucksAmazon' not paying tax bolloxPerhaps try to think of it this way.
My point regarding all this misdirected enmity toward corporations like Apple,Amazon,Starbucks etc, manipulated by the Government and Party spin machines to deflect our anger away from the root cause of our problems, which is gros economic incompetence and mismanagement of the tax they do receive, across the entire public sector, profligate waste in each and every department, which they pathetically try and reduce by targeting front line services, the poor and benefits whilst telling us they wouldn't be doing it if Apple etc paid more tax etc etc, which is pure out and out bollox.
That's it really, trust me, even if they did pay more, you and I wouldn't be any better off.
They make good kit, they make a profit, good luck to them, wish their management team were running this country instead of the cretins that are in place at the moment.
I wonder what percentage of journalists and online shouties ranting about nasty multinational corporations avoiding tax and screwing over us poor folk write their blogs from a Macbook?
[i]seosamh77 - Member
people that come out with the just works mantra shall be first up against the wall come my revolution!
[/i]
Oh yeah! 😀
@ 52 seconds!
😆
and a pint would cost 5x that of a half...
😀
Just like Stella Artois, Apple products are re-assuringly expensive
[img] 
[/img]
[i]That's it really, trust me, even if they did pay more, you and I wouldn't be any better off.[/i]
Yes, kinda. It wouldn't matter how much money you gave Labour or the NHS, they'd still ask for more and heaven forbid you question how they spend it. However, I suspect that's a new thread.
And in case you didn't know, and to save you the hassle. I once tried to point out the difference between private sector fat cat salary and public sector fat cat salary. Sadly, if not surprisingly. It was a point some on here couldn't understand. So my advise would be not to bother.
Back on topic, thanks Chambord. I'm free of Apple products, and proudly!
😀
Edit:
@ 1:51
thanks Chambord. I'm free of Apple products, and proudly!
Meh, so am I but I don't get a hard on about it. People can buy whatever they want, I just find the hypocrisy annoying.
😆Solo - Member
seosamh77 - Member
people that come out with the just works mantra shall be first up against the wall come my revolution!Oh yeah!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTTSsB92L_s
@ 52 seconds!
[i]Chambord - Member
thanks Chambord. I'm free of Apple products, and proudly!
[/i]
[i]Meh, so am I but I don't get a hard on about it. People can buy whatever they want, I just find the hypocrisy annoying. [/i]
Oh, erm, that's a little more information than I think any of us needed to know. You do seem quite angry about your little problem. Have you tried seeing your doctor?
😉
Good vid thx Solo.
Conversely, apart from a couple of copies of Office, my business is Microsoft free.
I develop for iOS and Android, with my own money I'd buy Android, Apple is slightly nicer but not worth the mark up in cold hard cash to me.
But whatever makes people happy is cool by me.
Q: what was the previous record holder for quarterly profits?
You do seem quite angry
Not at all, I am a picture of happiness.
Q: what was the previous record holder for quarterly profits?
ExxonMobil and Gazprom, from [url= http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jan/27/apple-record-quarterly-earnings-report-iphone-6-plus ]The Guardian[/url]
1% of all the humans on Earth bought an iPhone in the last 3 months of 2014.
One of those statistics that makes me think about things for a bit.
and then I move on.
You need to remember the golden rule of business in our society, to make money. This means keeping costs low to maximise profits. It would take a monumental human behaviours shift to address this.
seosamh77 - Member
...people that come out with the just works mantra shall be first up against the wall come my revolution!
I have a computer that doesn't work - am I saved?
Will book mark this topic for when the usual suspects are criticising tax avoidance, big corporations, fat cats, mass production models, made in China nonsense and everything else people get hot under the collar about....but defend vociferously when its their beloved Apple doing it....priceless.
Currently using an iPhone 5S for no other reason than its a decent 4 inch device, most Android handsets with a 4 inch screen and dubbed mid-level or budget offerings and the spec falls accordingly....at the high end i personally think the HTC One-M8 is probably the best smartphone around at the moment but at nearly 6 inches long it just doesnt fit in with my daily activities at the moment...
....the two 5S's we have (my other half has one too) are no better or worse than previous Androids i've had, her one in particular does the random reboots that all phones are prone to from time to time, we've both had frozen screens and on start-up they can be laggy and stuttering as most 'computers' are when they wake up for want of a better expression....they are no more integrated into their ecosystem than my previous Nexus devices were and some of the lack of options in the menu system (what menu system?!) when trying to get things done, do two things at once, navigate back to where you were etc are non existent with Apple and can be incredibly frustrating if you're used to the flexibility of Android.
They are pretty to look at and in a society obsessed with looks this obviously counts for a huge amount, i dont get the pull of Apple products either and thats with currently using an iPhone and having an iPod (which is arguably worse sound quality than the Sony MP3 i had before) but iTunes does seem to have an unparrelled content of music i'm looking for so i persist....if HTC would do the One-M8 in 4 inch size i'd have that instead!
rumple - Member
shame that the people who make the goods live in poverty
I agree.
gobuchul - Member
Biggest profits in history!Apparently if they were a country they would have a GDP similar to Denmark.
The majority of their profits are held in tax havens and can not be paid out to shareholders. They are sitting on nearly $200 billion!
Rich getting richer...
here ye go! 😆epicyclo - Member
seosamh77 - Member
...people that come out with the just works mantra shall be first up against the wall come my revolution!
I have a computer that doesn't work - am I saved?
https://www.digitalskills.com/resources?f%5B0%5D=field_content_categories%3A42
Not bad numbers for a product that lacks basic functionality.
I have a cheap android personal phone and a work iphone 5s. I'm not a 'phone person' and have no particular allegiance or anything like that.
The other day I took a photo on the iPhone and tried to send it to a mate by Bluetooth. Apparently it's not possible on an iPhone. Bizarre.
The screen is nice though and it scrolls really smoothly. Dunno if the iPhone 6 scrolls even more smoothly?
They've build some great products - doesn't matter if you like them or not or even if they're any good at what they do as a product to sell they're perfect.
They're not very ethical though, but very, very few big businesses are - there's a theory that because each decision they make is compartmentalised throughout the organisation and has to suit people who aren't involved in the process (share holders and customers basically)
If it was a person, rather than a organisation it would be declared a psychopath or having narcissistic personality disorder - shareholders cannot empathise with say factory workers because they don't know they exist (in real terms) and refuse to be held responsible for them because "they only investors", the board cannot empathise with the workers because they only serve to uphold the shareholders interests and customers might empathise but what good does it do because all the competition are thought of being equally as bad.
The day it becomes profitable to be ethical or indeed a fair tax payer they will respond.
The 'device' market is hugely competitive - if a new player entered the market and built a factory in Sudan training up locals and paying them fairly to life them from poverty and then paid a fair amount of tax in the countries they operated in - their goods would cost more than Apple, Samsung and the others - would there be enough of a market for these ethical devices to make it all work? I doubt it.
[i] drslow - Member
You need to remember the golden rule of business in our society, to make money. This means keeping costs low to maximise profits. It would take a monumental human behaviours shift to address this. [/i]
I'm not sure that any of the contributors to this thread have indicated that they feel making profit is bad, in principal.
Call me Chuck, hell, call me crazy ole fool, if you want to. But right here, right now. I'm going to take a chance and state that I [i]think[/i] almost everyone on this forum, at least understands that private sector companies probably need to make a profit, in principal.
That Apple makes a profit isn't itself an issue for most, AFAIK. I believe the issue is that Apple have accumulated vast quantities of cash held off shore and so therefore beyond the reach of the tax man. Who, as we know, is usually strapped for a bit of cash and could always use a little more.
Imo, Apple probably need to find a way to redistribute some of that wealth. Pay their CT, give out a wage rise, increase the dividend, something. Sadly it would seem that their bean counters have a fairly monochromatic view on what to do with all that cash.
I say hand over 35% as CT and then put as much effort into finding the most constructive method of ensuring such a huge cash store doesn't occur again, in the future. As they have thus far, in ensuring they haven't had to pay any tax on it. To date.
They're just waiting for a GOP president, then they can get a tax amnesty on overseas profit and bring it all back home tax free.
They're not very ethical though, but very, very few big businesses are - there's a theory that because each decision they make is compartmentalised throughout the organisation and has to suit people who aren't involved in the process (share holders and customers basically)
http://www.theverge.com/2014/2/13/5407406/apple-2014-supplier-responsibility-progress-report
I have a cheap android personal phone and a work iphone 5s. I'm not a 'phone person' and have no particular allegiance or anything like that.The other day I took a photo on the iPhone and tried to send it to a mate by Bluetooth. Apparently it's not possible on an iPhone. Bizarre.
I've yet to get pretty much any BT connection to work properly, the only thing I've got that works is a small speaker.
I find email much more efficient.
If Apple set up its own state and JY moved there...
...would all his posts be autocorrected?
Got loads of apple products, mainly purchased so I can get them out in cafes with my top button done up and pretend to do creative nu-media designs for cool global brands so provincial tourists can smirk at that designer winker over there with his macbook drinking a latte.