Talk me out of this terrible idea: Land Rover Defender!

Yes it will be a money pit, but good fun

Worth a watch:

My mate has two, a 25 plus year old 110 with a canvas back, and recently bought a 70 year old '90' for one of his sons. They are all into 4x4 trials, so they get used and abused. You aren't getting any creature comforts, and they are not cheap to buy and maintain. Both my mates cars have had significant work, new galvanised chassis, and the 110 has uprated suspension and tyres for proper off roading. I think the 70 year old one, non-running was over £5k. He's very handy on these and the older ones are easy to work on. I'd treat them as a hobby car.

Ex defender owner here. I sold mine as my useage had changed and I cashed in on the absolute mental values of them when they shot up.

They can be reliable but you need to be on top of them - there are a lot of oil filled components on them (engine, gearbox, transfer case, 2x diffs, 2xhub swivels, steering system). All liable to leak!

Chassis and bulkheads rust, pre Puma doors suffer from galvanic corrosion, anything waxoyl'd by the previous owner is hiding rust.

The driving experience is effectively of being in a fast tractor but I used to be happy to do big distances in ours.

Parts are okay price wise but you need to source OEM - anything Britpart is cheap and utter shit.

£5-10k won't buy you anything decent nowadays. If you buy a project and get it nice it'll then be stolen - there are a lot of rogues in the LR world. I've walked away from buying many used LR parts due to their provenance.

I know I'm blowing my own trumpet but my 1st gen Cayenne does everything our 110 did including off-road but quicker/quieter/more comfort and for a fraction of the price.

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I had a 110 till I rolled it. It was great fun to own and drive, but a useless vehicle for almost all sensible purposes. If I won the lottery I’d buy another.

Get on insta and look for overintherover for the full "oh my God how crap can it be?" experience.

I only owned half of one (it was a shared mistake). It was a Frankenstein series 3.5 with a seemingly indestructible isuzu diesel lump which, despite me running it for about 50 miles with no water at all in it, still managed to work just fine. Everything else went entirely wrong. All the time.

When we sold it, which was a proper only joyous day apart from the day we bought it event, my mate took his side of the cash and put down a deposit on a brand new 110 county. This was a further mistake on his behalf. The last time I talked to him about it there were utterances of "unbelievable corrosion", "a bingo card of warnings" all backed up by a dealership that denied all knowledge of anything awry with any JLR product, ever.

I cashed out and have watched from afar as several other friends go through the land rover cash wringer.

Mate had one.  He also had an inspection pit.  He spent many months in that pit.

Similar to you OP, we were looking into them as a 'practical' 2nd vehicle.  Tip runs, towing, camping, biking, etc.

I commute by bike so my annual milage is tiny, and I already have a motorbike and classic car in the shed.

I was looking at early Military 110's.  

+ "Modern" suspension and brakes

+ Tithonous ones had at least been overhauled at some point

+ Simple engines

+ Tax and MOT exempt (a big saving if you're only doing a few miles a year) 

- 2.5 TD is slow

- 1:1.2* transfer box makes them slow and noisy 

*I think, it's significantly lower than Tdi models anyway

Be very careful looking at 'nice' ones. I saw a County 110 last year for £18k (not a bad price) that looked immaculate in the photos, but the MOT failure list from just a few months previously was almost 2 pages long!  Either:

Someone had spent an absolute fortune, but not kept a single receipt

It was still a turd, just a turd rolled in waxoyl and gliter

It was stollen and they'd taken the VIN of an absolute wreck.

The garage tried to bluff and say that the MOT made it sound worse than it was. And for some things I agree you sometimes get lucky with cheap easy fixes, but rust in all 4 corners, emissions, brakes, steering, oil leaks.........

My Wife and I have a 1960 Series 2a. We inherited it from my FiL when he died.

When we got it it hadn't moved in over 20 years. FiL restored the car in the mid 1990's and fitted a galvanised chassis and a new bulkhead but hadn't driven it since about 2000. Not a single straight panel on the car, paint missing in places, leaf springs all round, drumbrakes all round and oil leaks on both axles!

I've spent hours getting the brakes to function. Hours to get the clutch to function. Hours getting the engine to run properly. Plus dozens of other little jobs to get it at least roadworthy. Plus it needed new tyres and inner tubes on all wheels. It's a "Historic Vehicle" which means £0 Road Tax and no MOT required plus insurance was £150 for 1000 miles annually.

This last weekend it finally ran properly and moved under it's own power! A great sense of achievement but I can't comment on long term reliability. The driving experience is very basic and comparisons with tractors are unfair to modern tractors. If you've ever driven a 1940's tractor (I have) - then that is more akin to the Land Rover.

It has a harsh ride, heavy steering, 50bhp, low speed (ours will just top 50mph) and noisy.

We intend to take it to a few Land Rover meetings and similar classic car events.

I think our 'use-case' is slightly different to yours.

This will be the fourth car in our household and there are just the two of us!!

PS just get a van.

  Absolutely love mine. But I’d never want to not own another car. We use it for green laning & pootling about. It makes me smile, but then I never need to be anywhere when I use it, if that makes sense? 

mine has a 3.9ltr Isuzu engine and an auto gearbox so it’s got decent power and is nice to drive but it gives me 20mpg on a good day. Only 18 months until it’s tax exempt though. 

Bought it as a basket case and have spent hours and pounds & miles of welding wire getting it into ‘decent’ condition but there’s always something to do. (£5k to buy, with a 3 page long MOT fail sheet then another £4k to get through an MOT, probably another £3-4k spent since just on sorting bits and servicing.)
A 90 is very small inside, forget fitting bikes in it for example. 110 bigger but has the turning circle of a cruise liner. 

Reliability is an odd one. If looked after they are great but many are absolutely knackered and can easily be dressed up in shiny tat to look great while actually being wrecks. They need plenty of preventative maintenance, servicing etc. 

I’m on my second 1990, 90 Defender, got it for £10000 18 months ago. It’s got the 300tdi engine and had a fortune spent on it by an ex RAC man who had kept the cost from his partner… There’s not much space in the back so a full roof rack is a must. Fuel consumption just over 30 but compared to most modern vehicles maintenance and repairs are easy, parts are relatively cheap (Britpart much improved). You have to be prepared for it to become another hobby but if you don’t mind that and you cultivate your local specialist (mine is Cavendish Motors) it can be very rewarding. Mine doesn’t leak any oil which I found quite worrying but once I checked that there was some in all the various places I relaxed - obviously a very meticulous former owner! @Zedsdead PM me if you want more advice. 

If you want a Land Rover then literally nothing else is going to cut it, because you want a Land Rover. They're characterful, but exhausting. A Rangie is a better proposition *IF* you find a good one. Roughly one in twelve is a good one. I had a good classic, a bad P38, and a good L322. I'd have another L322 in a heartbeat.

The 'sensible' choice is a Hilux or Cayenne, depending on what you actually 'need'. Inverted commas entirely deliberate.

"like it to be reliable" and "old Land Rover Defender"

ha ha ha

Don't get me wrong I also love the idea, the romance. Then I talk to some people and they laugh at me. 

db

ps - I bought a van.

Phew, for a minute there I thought you were going to buy one of those awful new ones.

We had a 130, the advantage with old Defenders is that as long as you're mechanically minded you can keep it going forever and there's a massive community out there to offer advice and help.

Really it's just the same look-outs as any other classic car purchase - they rot, cost money to fix and you won't ever recoup the money you put in to fixing it up. Treat it like a hobby, buy a Haynes manual and a set of overalls and go get yourself covered in oil.

TBH it sounds like you already know the above and are going in with your eyes open to all the downsides of owning a Landrover, if I won the lottery I'd go straight out and get a 90.

Do it. You'll instantly regret it .... but in a good way.

No just say no. 

Bad decisions make great stories.  This has got to be one of the worst, so it has the makings of a great tale.  

Some years ago, I thought I wanted a Defender 90 too. Mrs Comet had the bright idea of hiring one for a weekend as a present. It was a great present, but at the end of the weekend, I didn't want one anymore.

Posted by: Zedsdead

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would like it to be relatively hassle free.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So I've been driving them for years in mountain rescue. Yes, there is something iconic, special and slightly capitaving about them. I guess it is a form of Stockholm syndrome. But....

• They are unsafe. Ridiculously so. Not even close to meeting the most basic modern safety standard.
• They are liable to being stolen and they have absolutely no theft protection, at all. None
• They require constant work, spend or time depending on your skills
• The driving position is woeful. Cramped, awkward. Don't buy one if you have a bad back. If you don't have a bad back and you buy one, you will soon have a bad back
• They have no basic comforts. No AC, cruise control, stereo, heated seats, electric windows. Nothing. You are usually too cold or too hot. 
• They are like a reverse tartis, massive on the outside, small inside
• Appalling driving manners on road, great off road but not as good as modern vehicles.

We recently got rid of one to replace it with a Hilux which is better in every respect. They are a relic best reserved for enthusiasts and museums. 

I have spent a while in a few different ones. 2 mates have been owners

IMHO the price increase has ruined. Your now paying a premium for all the problems 

Don’t buy an old 90 if you are tall . The bulk head is to far forward

 On the plus you’ll realise how brilliant MTBing is

You can pay £30 to drive your 4x4 in a bit of muddy wood the size of a small field with no prepared trails. Plus £10 for each extra driver.  When it’s £8 to park at a trail centre and then 4 of you get  access to a huge wood and  60km of purpose built trails you’ll reslise how well cyclists are looked after

Having got mates who’ve had them, I’m seeing the word…..

Moneypit

Why not just spend it on coke and hookers instead? Or get a massive bundle of notes and set fire to them then go and buy a van?

Phew, for a minute there I thought you were going to buy one of those awful new ones.

They do seem to be the undisputed number one vehicle of choice for absolute whoppers. The kind of people who buy Thrudark clothing

•   I’d buy an SJ, you know it’ll be rotten in the corners but you can get the bits from India and it’s way way cooler than a defender. Mines GTI engine swapped…

Have you driven one OP? If not, do so as soon as possible because it could quickly change your mind. We had them at work for years and every version, including the later one's were god awful things. I can honestly say they are the worst vehicles I've ever driven with no redeemable features for road driving.

I agree with all above and have just bought my 7th! Not sure on this one. I knew the TD5 motor was a touch more electronic that my other but hadn't realised that it had things like a throttle sensor not a Bowden cable until I got it home. Hmm Ekectrickery to go wrong. Had the family 2.4 Puma engined one for 2 years. Way to complicated. Funnily enough you'll get one of those cheaper than a decent 300tdi if you want a 110

Drove my dad's 1989 110 CSW for a couple of years when I first passed my test in 2000.

Noisiest, slowest, thirtiest, most uncomfortable, least reliable vehicle I've ever had. But I miss it. Great fun 

Unless you really need one there are loads of better cars out there, but for the very niche jobs they are designed for they are unbeatable. He used it for towing and launching a boat - could drive into a lake with the trailer on, and had enough grip and grunt to get a biggish boat full of water out up a slip way which was always wet and occasionally icey. For that couple of minutes every week there was nothing else would do, none of the fancier 4x4s at the sailing club could do it. But for everything else it was terrible 

There was someone on here a while ago asking about hiring a pickup to move a heavy load across some very rough ground. The only ones which could do it with that weight were a 110 or 130, none of your fancy modern rubbish. Ok, and a Unimog. Again, niche use, but unbeatable.

It's a really awful idea, using one of those old tractors regularly is a pretty shitty way to have an oldies crisis. Museum pieces or shows but keep orf the road dood

I think I’d just bite the bullet, accept that one way or another you’re going to spend the money and buy a new one, accepting that everyone will hate you, but at least you’ll be comfortable and warm in their hatred.  

If you need extra warmth, make sure you get the expedition kit with the side boxes and snorkel to really ramp up the infrared heating effect.  

I had an ex-environment agency 110 for about 15 years.  It was mechanically actually pretty reliable, and apart from the usual outrigger replacement and bulkhead welding, didn't cost me much to keep on the road.  At least it was reliable until the the engine, gearbox and transfer box ate each other in a spectacular way.

The annoying thing about them is that they're not only uncomfortable, they're pretty impractical...the load space is too small - you can't fit a 29er with the front wheel on.

Having said that, I saw a 90 for sale at the weekend and found myself idly wondering about getting it (Not for long...looked it up and found it has no MOT, so judging by the fact that the guy is selling it, rather than fixing it, I assume it needs major money spending)

Yeah, don’t do it. At least have a drive in one to see how uncomfortable the seat is, the godawful driving position, lack of any proper heating or cooling and the noisy cabin. Paired with terrible fuel economy and running costs, constant repairs and theft risk. They also aren’t all that great by modern standards as alluded to by others further up the thread. 

I had one for five years. It was a 10-year-old 1999 TD5 110 with a shit-tonne of upgrades.

Chipped ECU*, LPG injection, Salisbury diff, upgraded axles front and rear, upgraded suspension, airlocks front and rear, custom roof-rack so it would still fit into 2.3m height car parks, a/c, long range tank (600 miles between fill-ups), 70 litre water tank, snorkel and bull bar.

We drove a lap of Australia in it converted to a two-seater then when we had kids put the seats back in.

I found the driving position really comfortable - except for lack of cruise control meant on long stretches keeping my right leg in one position got annoying... and there's a lot of long stretches in Oz!

It would pull to 100mph (I only did that once), and cruise comfortably at 80mph but as soon as you went over 60mph the fuel consumption rocketed.

We bought it with 200,000km on the clock and did 100,000 more before selling it, the list of issues in that time hardly marked it out as being a lemon:

- broken rear wheel stud and cracked brake pipe union due to harsh dirt roads (both fixed at the side of the road)

- accessory belt (fixed at the side of the road)

- broken dual mass flywheel (replaced along with clutch)

- split turbo hose (easy fix)

- dead power steering motor (not hard to change ... but annoying when you spend hours before finding out you've been sent the wrong one!)

- a flat tyre.

They're not really practical, but we still wish we'd kept it.

*and importantly sealed from water ingress @mattsccm because the ECU is under the front seat and water can run down the cabling into the ECU otherwise!

I was looking at early Military 110's.  

+ "Modern" suspension and brakes

+ Tithonous ones had at least been overhauled at some point

+ Simple engines

+ Tax and MOT exempt (a big saving if you're only doing a few miles a year) 

- 2.5 TD is slow

- 1:1.2* transfer box makes them slow and noisy 

*I think, it's significantly lower than Tdi models anyway

1986 and 1991 batches were non turbo 2.5na 68hp. Transfer box is 1.6 (Tdi's are 1.4, Discovery is 1.2). No power steering. Mine was a '91 winterised non wader. I rebuilt the NA engine with a new old stock block, new gas flowed head, tweaked pump, different injectors and a 1.2 transfer. It happily pulled a big Ifor box trailer and also took us to Morocco.

Tithonous fitted roll over protection hoop and sound deadening to the cab area plus a quick flashover of BS381 green.

Then came 'Wolf', 300tdi engine with 24v electrics, beefed up chassis. Command high prices

I flirted with the idea of getting a Disco transfer box for mine before we decided to sell it. Would have been much nicer for the long highway drags. 

We used to see huge convoys of the Australian army Defenders (Perenties) heading to the Northern Territory for exercises every winter. A long slow trek at the speeds they were travelling.

They are all you fear and worse but exactly what you are after. 

Mine have all been work vehicles, mostly 130's which are the most practical and great for towing. Also had 110 hicap and a lifted 90 300tdi.

Have a Hilux from work now and would love to still be in the 2.4 Puma 130 or the 90.

Obviously, van at home for holidays.

I'd go for a 200 or 300TDI 110. 90s are fun but there is no room in the back for anything really. My 300TDI gets low 30s mpg. Some people don't get on with the driving position (upright and not much elbow room for your right arm) but I find it Quite comfortable (6 foot 1 and generally big build). Just check oils ect every once in a while and they are reliable enough. A couple of examples being my last Discovery (same engine and running gear as a Defender) that I put 130000 miles on and all it ever needed other than consumables ie brake pads/disks and general service items was a power steering pump at £60. Also my current 110 has done 16000 miles in my ownership and only needed a wheel bearing. They don't drive like a modern car but that is part of the fun!

A couple of examples being my last Discovery (same engine and running gear as a Defender) that I put 130000 miles on and all it ever needed

A couple of examples being my last Discovery (same engine and running gear as a Defender) that I put 130000 miles on and all it ever needed other than consumables ie brake pads/disks and general service items was a power steering pump at £60. Also my current 110 has done 16000 miles in my ownership and only needed a wheel bearing. They don't drive like a modern car but that is part of the fun.

TBH why not buy a discovery that does drive like a modern car and is waay cheaper as it doesn’t have that nostalgic aroma of a bygone era and you get airbags as opposed to using your own nutsacs/boobies.

I think anything LR is fine if your a spannerist and go with the flow but if your paying someone

You can put an outside roll cage on a Disco and live out that mad max lifestyle and still have money in your pocket. 

TBH why not buy a discovery

Because Disco 1&2's rot even more than a Deafener and Disco 3&4's snap cranks!

TBH move to Spain and get a Santana

Although I’m in the campo don’t see many around, Dacia Dusters and Lamborghini Urus are more common

Because Disco 1&2's rot even more than a Deafener and Disco 3&4's snap cranks!

Yep but they are priced accordingly

Used to have an ex-military (red & white, not green) 110. Fairly reliable, used to get a fair few punctures driving off-road but that might have been tyre choice.  Very cold, it's basically a big metal box that you're trying to heat up, if I had another one I'd fit a bulkhead so that you're only heating up the front

driver area.

Posted by: natrix

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if I had another one I'd fit a bulkhead so that you're only heating up the front

driver area.

I used to have a work van, a Vauxhall Combo. It was great but I was always freezing as there was only a mesh type bulkhead between the cab and rear load area. One day I just shoved massive piece of cardboard in there and it was transformational! Warm, quiet, cab heated up in seconds. 

During my last divorce I had a plan to drive to Australia (it can be done apparently) and wanted a 110 for that trip. I had a local Landy specialist (not a dealer) and had hung out there when my mate was rebuilding his 90. Hung out a lot, because he was always going there for parts when fixing one thing showed up another problem...

Anyway, asked their advice about the various 110 generations and what would be best for that sort of trip and the general push was something with a turbo, but not so modern that you'd have all the electrics to go wrong. That was just for the engine. The advice that we agreed on was that the best Defender for a trip like that was the 300Tdi Discovery. Because it is a more comfortable, more refined, less stressful place to drive a long distance.

I learned (partially) to drive in a 110. I love Defenders as a concept, but I cannot ever own one for my own sanity, and I say that as an owner of a Citroen Jumpy/Dispatch.

Driven tens of thousands of km in many many many defenders of several generations. All the way back to Series IIA and right up to the last version of the 90/110 before it went out of production (L316). Even used on as a team bus for a couple of years, 130 Station Wagon with half the seats taken out and the biggest roof rack you've seen.

About 12 MPG when fully loaded.

I'd love to own one, but only as a second car. And i'd need a proper budget to look after it.

The ones i drove (literally) had full factory support, so i can only recall one breaking down due to a fault. Lots of them needed towing in from the track/various locations around the UK though, when a prototype bit went clonk.

Or BANG Judder judder squeal crunch on one memorable occasion.

They look ace on a beer can.

The correct answer is to get a Land Cruiser.

You'll thank me later.

You'll always get your money back as long as you don't tip it on its lid. Buy a good multi meter and some heat shrink.  You may fix it a lot but it is mostly cheap. Just bought two rear lights including bulb h older for 12 quid. Do that with a Land Cruiser.

This one might still be available…

I always had a bit of a hankering for a Defender 90, with all the running gear upgraded, better seats, etc, etc.

The reality is that, given the money, I’d have a Jimny, get it up-engined to something with more power and torque, upgrade all the suspension and running gear, fit an exoskeleton and proper winch and towing eyes, better seats, and have fun with that. I have driven a Jimny, did 130-odd miles in it, and it wasn’t horrible, unlike certain van-based vehicles I’ve also driven. 

I was given a six cyclinder petrol LWB to use by Welsh Water. The only vehicle I've driven that compares was a J4 van: both ungainly, unwieldy, heavy, uncomfortable, thirsty, noisy, cold and not even especially good off road in standard spec - happily it came with a winch.

In these parts the emissions zone means they can only be used at the weekend or something like that. I'll rejoice the day they ban the stinking filthy things completely.

Their place is on a farm with red diesel in the tank, anywhere else there's something that will do the job better.

This would make me think twice

https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/25029688.attempted-theft-land-rover-defender-church-enstone/

There's a pimped Chelsea Truck Company one near me and it's always got two cars parked in front of it on the drive.

They're big news out here in East Lancs

Land Rover - one, Garden wall - nil