Also, not enough people are condemning Hamas
That's one of the main issues here, people think it's binary, there are three entities at play in this conflict
The IDF - directed by the Israeli government
The Palestinian People.
Hamas.
The Palestinians are sandwiches between two sides having a kinetic ding dong and dying hand over fist as a result.
Hamas give zero ****s about the Palestinian People, the IDF want to kill Hamas and if the Palestinians get in the way it's unavoidable 'collateral damage'.
Women were gang-raped. Children executed.
So you have switched from what was allegedly happening on pro-Palestinian demos to what has allegedly happened in Israel. That's quite a leap. Still, it is a forbidden topic on STW.
Do we now need a James! Cleverley! thread?
was she setup as the fall women to allow changes to happen
You mean like bringing back a washed-up prime minister from the past?
Edit: I am looking forward to Liz Truss's triumphant return to frontline politics.
If any other “valid” country was doing the same other countries would not just be sitting and watching.
This isn't true at all. Other countries have recently sat and watched as civilians were cut off from basic supplies, ethnically cleansed, and killed in Ethiopia, Yemen, Central African Republic. That's not to say they should sit and do it again, but Israel’s position here is not unique.
Braverman was probably only sacked for undermining Sunak
Poor woman. I doubt she's been this upset since she was unable to fly a few dozen foreigners off to Rwanda or stick a whole load of desperate asylum seekers onto a disease-riddled barge.
The Palestinians are sandwiches between two sides having a kinetic ding dong and dying hand over fist as a result.
Hamas give zero **** about the Palestinian People, the IDF want to kill Hamas and if the Palestinians get in the way it’s unavoidable ‘collateral damage’.
Yes I agree. Hamas' leaders are extremists, whereas most Palestinians are much more liberal. Many are quite secular. Hamas' leadership are a group whose aims are simply to wipe out Israel and kill all Jews living there. It's complicated though by the fact that as no actual democracy exists in Palestine (because it isn't allowed by Israel to engage in any form of democratic process), Hamas have risen up in a vacuum, and offer resistance. This is an inevitable consequence of suppressing democracy, and a situation engineered by those who wish for a perpetuation of war. The same exists in Israel; whilst there is a continuous state of fear, so belligerent right-wing governments will prevail.
Did the isreali government not bring about the end of the palestinian authority that created a more moderate leadership?
But one thing that I am now determined more than ever to challenge when I see it, is anti-Semitism. There were a number of ignorant people on the march, and conflating ‘Zionism’ and Judaism is wrong. From my own experience,I know that a lot of young Asian Muslims can be very ignorant and naive, but the key is education. I hope that from this, more conversations can be had, and more minds opened. As a Muslim, I feel it is my duty to show solidarity with Jewish people, and minorities everywhere, because only through solidarity can we have the power to resist fascism.
What a honourable sentiment @brownperson, I wish there were more people that spoke this sensibly about the issue.
Did the isreali government not bring about the end of the palestinian authority that created a more moderate leadership?
The PLO took the, er, Sinn Féin route (sorry if that's a crass comparison) and lost out at the ballot box because of it. When people lead desperate lives, and/or live in fear, the hardliners have the means to build on their support. See also the Israeli Labour party losing influence and power (not to mention key politicians being assassinated) in Israel, and the rise and control of the country by the war hungry far right.
According to the Daily Mash, Braverman was told that being sacked is a lifestyle choice.
They're on good form today but I guess they've got an absolute ton of material to go at!
Did the isreali government not bring about the end of the palestinian authority that created a more moderate leadership?
No.
no actual democracy exists in Palestine (because it isn’t allowed by Israel to engage in any form of democratic process), Hamas have risen up in a vacuum, and offer resistance.
This is totally backward. Hamas's position was strengthened as a result of Fatah ineptitude and corruption, and it was elected in contested and democratic-ish elections. Hamas and Fatah then fought a civil war, Fatah was expelled from Gaza, and in response Fatah cancelled democratic elections. The PNA is not internally democratic because it doesn't suit the Palestinian ruling class (or, perhaps, western powers) for it to be democratic.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Palestinian_legislative_election
It looks as if there might actually be some very good news for Rishi Sunak on Wednesday:
The latest City expectation is that inflation on Wednesday will come in at 4.8% according to Refinitiv, or 4.7% according to Bloomberg.
Unfortunately for Rishi Sunak because he has decided to focus so much on something which was never going to be achievable the good news on Wednesday which affects ordinary voters lives, and was always going to be easy to achieve, will be completely overshadowed by Rwanda and arguments over whether the UK should withdraw from the ECHR.
I have no doubt that most voters are more concerned about inflation than ECHR membership.
I don't think Rishi Sunak is stupid but he is clearly not a brilliant strategist
Jeremy Quin says he has resigned as paymaster general, a minister in the Cabinet Office. He says he wants to focus on projects in Horsham, his constituency, where he had a majority of 21,127 at the last election.
Another one gone. Got to be approaching double figures now
Did the isreali government not bring about the end of the palestinian authority that created a more moderate leadership?
No.
Absolutely they did. Israel created Hamas to undermine the secular and left-wing PLO. They were very successful.
Why is this being discussed when it is a forbidden topic?
Israel created Hamas to undermine the secular and left-wing PLO.
This is why it's hard to discuss this stuff on a forum. Would you want this nonsense appearing on your website?
The Israeli government back then kept channels open with all parties in Gaza, no matter how opposed to Israel they were, or if they backed terrorist attacks (back when talking without prerequisites was was accepted as the route to peace). They did not create Hamas.
Ha ha ha Cameron must now be the best candidate they've got to replace sunak. I don't know if it's legally possible but he's surely the most competent in government at the moment
Wee Ruthie must have fo'd the FO
Just when you thought you were scraping the barrel, someone had a look underneath
BP I think you'll find that a lot of those allegations against Hamas were quietly dropped by journalists and politicians because there was no evidence for it. Also, what you refer to as 'collateral damage' is also referred to by the perpetrators as 'mowing the lawn'.
Would you want this nonsense appearing on your website?
Why not? The Wall Street Journal don't have a problem with that "nonsense" on their website:
https://web.archive.org/web/20090926212507/http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html
"Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation," says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades. Responsible for religious affairs in the region until 1994, Mr. Cohen watched the Islamist movement take shape, muscle aside secular Palestinian rivals and then morph into what is today Hamas, a militant group that is sworn to Israel's destruction."
Obviously not everyone likes the truth but I wouldn't necessarily put STW in that category, would you?
The rise of Hamas was possible because of actions taken (and not taken) by Israeli governments.
I really appreciate your comments, @brownperson, and it’s a shame to see you getting some pushback for them.
The rise of Hamas was possible because....
Read it article.
Edit: To be fair to the Israelis it was at a time when the CIA was financing and arming Osama bin Laden and Margaret Thatcher was supporting Pol Pot.
It just seemed like a good idea at the time.
Read it article.
It'll say what I said. Dialogue between the Israeli government any and all players in Gaza (while seeking a peaceful future) including the hardliners of Hamas, emboldened and empowered them... gave the more extreme elements political legitimacy. Helped them grow. But it is not the case that they... "created Hamas to undermine the secular and left-wing PLO". But well done for inserting that conspiracy theory into this thread.
But it is not the case that they… “created Hamas to undermine the secular and left-wing PLO”
That is exactly what the Wall Street Journal article says.
Maybe a strongly worded email to the WSJ demanding that they remove that "nonsense" from their website?
I've read it now. It's a good piece... if you read the whole thing. Worth a read. It doesn't say what you say it does... unless you choose to ignore 90% of the words.
I'll pick a select phrase from it...
"Israeli officials who served in Gaza disagree on how much their own actions may have contributed to the rise of Hamas. They blame the group's recent ascent on outsiders, primarily Iran."
...and add that I think the actions of Israeli officials greatly contributed to the rise of Hamas... but it is simply not the case that they... "created Hamas to undermine the secular and left-wing PLO". That's conspiracy theory nonsense of the oldest kind. The roots of Hamas are well known. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas
I don't think the phrase shuffling the deckchairs on the Titanic is fully adequate now to describe this Tory party.
It doesn’t say what you say it does… unless you choose to ignore 90% of the words.
Well you choose to ignore these words:
"Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades."
I think they are quite important. And exactly the same point as I was making.
Guys may i humbly suugest that this gets dropped? Its into arguing semantics already
Apologies for starting it
It comes to something doesn't it, when you see Cameron and think "well... that's probably the least worst option."
The issue was the muppets who succeeded him pursuing some idealistic dream brexit rather than seeking compromises.
Well, that was arguably an issue but it sure as shit wasn't the issue.
Guys may i humbly suugest that this gets dropped? Its into arguing semantics already
TJ now with the antisemantic views.
antisemantic views
I don't know whether that's the best thing or the worst thing I have ever read.
Apologies for starting it
Was it you??
t Thatcher was supporting Pol Pot
Did'nt know that it 's not much of a surprise though
[i]Apologies for starting it
Was it you??[/i]
TJ started Hamas?!?! Quick tell the Wall Street Journal and M<t Cohen that they got it wrong.
This is why I alway come to STW for my world news updates.
TJ now with the antisemantic views.
🎩👏
Post of the week right there
TJ now with the antisemantic views.
Im not keen on vests either so i am an anti semmit
This is why I alway come to STW for my world news updates.
More Hamas related news updates......in two weeks time it will be 2 years since the Tories decided that Hamas are terrorists:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/islamist-terrorist-group-hamas-banned-in-the-uk
It comes to something doesn’t it, when you see Cameron and think “well… that’s probably the least worst option.”
A safe pair of hands. It's not as if we can leave Europe twice, is it?
Cameron must now be the best candidate they’ve got to replace sunak. I don’t know if it’s legally possible but he’s surely the most competent in government at the moment
If this is possible then it's fairly terrifying as I can see him winning the next GE or getting close enough to prevent Labour forming a government.
It is "possible" for David Cameron to become PM again, it just requires the King to ask him to form a government. It's been a very long time since there has been a PM from the House of Lords though.
It just shows how ridiculous the whole House of Lords nonsense is and why Starmer should stick to his pledge to "Abolish the House of Lords – replace it with an elected chamber of regions and nations".
Edit: I don't see how or why Austerity Dave would be an electoral asset for the Tories. There is overwhelming evidence that voters want change, not failed former prime ministers from the past dug up.
So you have switched from what was allegedly happening on pro-Palestinian demos to what has allegedly happened in Israel. That’s quite a leap. Still, it is a forbidden topic on STW.
I haven't 'switched' from anything. I just feel it's important for impartiality in respect of victims of war. It is well evidenced that hostile forces often use rape and sexual violence against prisoners. There have been eye witness accounts of rape from October 7th. In fact, Israeli women's groups are concerned with the lack of evidence gathering regarding this. <br /><br /> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/10/israel-womens-groups-warn-of-failure-to-keep-evidence-of-sexual-violence-in-hamas-attacks
It has been well evidenced that the IDF has used rape and sexual violence against Palestinians too. We must not be partisan when it comes to concern and compassion for victims, any victims. Analysis of suffering must have equivalence. No life is worth more or less than any other.
I am not concerned with being on the 'right side'; I find such reductionism abhorrent and counter-productive. As I've mentioned previously; my partner is Jewish. Anyone who comes for her, comes for me also. The only path to peace is through solidarity.
It comes to something doesn’t it, when you see Cameron and think “well… that’s probably the least worst option.”
I wonder if Gideon fancies chucking his gig at the Evening Standard then we can go full circle.
Halcyon days indeed.
I've just been catching up with the news feed on the BBC, and this lower sentence made me read it three times. Then I realised it's actually 2 sentences.
Health Secretary Steve Barclay was seen arriving at No 10 a short time ago.
We don't yet know why. Barclay has been the health secretary since October 2022.
