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Interesting link DS, thanks.
Probably the most revered figure in the history of Uruguayan football is Obdulio Varela, captain of the side that won the World Cup in 1950. His nickname was "El Negro Jefe" - the black boss.Among Suarez's team-mates these days is Maxi Pereira, who is known as "El Mono" - the monkey. It is a nickname which, apparently, is given and accepted with no offence meant or taken.
Again, this comes down to intent, not language. These guys have nicknames bestowed on them without malicious intent, and take them in the spirit of which they are given. Quite different to referring to the colour of someones skin whilst insulting them. Regardless of culture, you're on very dodgy ground if you do.
By simply using the word negro (it means black), by your definition I'm being racist and therefore being discriminated against simply because of vocabulary.
Disagree, you are allowed to say that someone is black in a factual manner. Not when it's clearly meant derogatively (is that a word?)
don simon - to take your example, if Beckham had used a term considered offensive in Spain I would have expected him to pay the price. Hopefully he would have learned the lesson.
Suarez has used a term considered offensive here (and nobody surely can be so deluded that they think Suarez said it in a positive way). He's paying the price and should learn from it.
What would have happened if Liverpool and been playing Spurs and he'd called van der Vaart a Yid? Historically a derogatory word, but v d Vaart will receive a "Yiddo, Yiddo" chant from the Spurs faithfully very time he takes a corner. So context has to be taken into account.
Having said that, knowing his previous form (that handball in the world cup) and what he has, sooo stupidly, done since (stinking his finger up) I’m more than happy to see him get banned, especially as I’m a proud Yiddo ... Cmon you Spurs.
Again, this comes down to intent, not language. These guys have nicknames bestowed on them without malicious intent, and take them in the spirit of which they are given. Quite different to referring to the colour of someone’s skin whilst insulting them. Regardless of culture, you're on very dodgy ground if you do.
clarke carlisle spoke on this and what he said was it was legal to chop the hand of thieves in some middle eastern countries and cultures but that does not make it acceptable here. See also say wife beating, child exorcisms , beating children for other examples where we view "cultural norms " as unacceptable
By simply using the word negro (it means black), by your definition I'm being racist and therefore being discriminated against simply because of vocabulary.
this all depends words can have different meanings depending ion who says them. I could call a gay friend an big Nancy boy in jest but if we were out and someone else did it we would both be outraged and challenge them. Same with the N word here. Many folks use it for their peers but they would probably not be keen on a white middle aged middle class dude using it to them
..hey N word that was my parking space - it is unlikely to be taken as banter or as sign of respect or how street I am.
It would seem obvious Suarez use was not a term of endearment/respect so again we are left with it being used to provoke a response.
I dont think Suarez is a racist tbh but it was unwise to use those words in this country even if he can abroad/elsewhere.
It is hardly a radical thought to say words have different meanings and different intents though it may be difficult to work them out without knowledge of the speaker.
I think everyone's missing the most important point here. The racist little scouse sod has buggered my fantasy football team right up!
I had him up front with Rooney. He was doing alright too 🙁
You have to love football!!
This is a game that condones racist, offensive, sexist, foul...etc...chanting along with blatant disrespect for match officials from all concerned and then over-reacts in this situation. This is not to say that I condone racist behaviour in any way, rather that the context needs to be understood. Put what Suarez does in the heat of a match and compare it with Sepp Blatter's behaviour. Then Joey Barton's contribution!! What a great national game we have?!!?
I spend a lot of time working in Africa and the word black is used freely, correctly and in the correct context without malice or offence. It takes time to adjust to this coming from our society where we struggle to get our heads around what is and what is not genuine racism.
Fine ban Suarez but football, the whole system needs to understand that abusing people in anyway at their place of work is wrong and unprofessional.
This is why both Seb Blatter and the FA are in the wrong in my opinion Seb Blatter for suggesting Ezra should just shrug it off and the FA for not punishing Ezra as well.
In the same way that in the 60's it was considered fine to break a man leg if you got the ball, it is now still considered fine that mental abuse can be used as a legitimate part of the game to gain advantage.
I would suggest that these cases where one player gets an 8 match ban for racism and another gets away scot-free show that this period is coming to end.
It should be encouraged that player should nt insult either in the hope of gaining a small mental edge in the same way the players are now encouraged not to break each others legs.
Hopefully next time Suarez will report whoever of unprofessional conduct ie (swearing and intimidation at the place of work) rather than resort to this sort of language.
Don't worry! Panic over! I've sold him and got Sturridge up front instead. He's looking good at the moment. And with the money I made on the deal, I've beefed up my defense with micah Richards
Just thought I'd let you know, in case anyone was worried. That is all
He's not fresh off the boat from S America.
What, a banana boat or something? 😕
Oh the irony of complaining about racist behaviour, then using a culturally and racially insensitive comment like 'off the boat'. Do you have any idea of why such a comment would be offensive? Obviously not...
Yeah, cos like all immigrants come over here on boats, it's not like they might use more modern forms of transport to get here, oh no...
Wunundred!
I thought they all fell out of trees?
What, bananaz?
No, silly! Boats!
You're bloody right as well, Binners!
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😯
spend a lot of time working in Africa and the word black is used freely, correctly and in the correct context without malice or offence. It takes time to adjust to this coming from our society where we struggle to get our heads around what is and what is not genuine racism.
there is no history of the term being used pejoratively though like over here. the n word could be a descriptor like white and **** an abbreviation like Scot but they are not.
Africa is not free of racism but they don’t use black as racist term in the same way we don’t use white as one.
have you heard mugabe and his use of the term white for a more relevant examples.
It's an interesting debate isn't it?
We have a multicultural premiership allied to a very British notion of what constitutes racism. That's the core issue and it isn't being addressed.
I think the question that must be asked, which no-one else seems willing to do, is:
[i]What would Big Ron do?[/i]
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Slightly off topic but did Balotelli really dress as Santa and drive around Manchester giving out money from the window of his car! Please please let it be true!
I think the question that must be asked, which no-one else seems willing to do, is:[i]What would Big Ron do?[/i]
Buy some jewellery, light a cigar or slap a waitress' arse.
Slightly off topic but did Balotelli really dress as Santa and drive around Manchester giving out money from the window of his car! Please please let it be true!
It is true.
Buy some jewellery, light a cigar or slap a waitress' arse [b]and call someone a 'lazy ****'[/b]
FTFY...
Let's have a look at the teams Big Racist Ron has managed...
1971–1974 Kettering Town
1974–1978 Cambridge United
1978–1981 West Bromwich Albion
[b]1981–1986 Manchester United[/b]
1987–1988 West Bromwich Albion
1988–1989 Atlético Madrid
1989–1991 Sheffield Wednesday
1991–1994 Aston Villa
1995–1996 Coventry City
1997–1998 Sheffield Wednesday
1999 Nottingham Forest
Well I never! 😯
Hate to say it about a City player, but Balotelli is bloody great!!! A refreshing antidote to the John Terry's of this world
The Big Ron comparison is not a silly and fatuous as it might sound. Like Suarez he too had plenty of people coming to his defence saying that he is not a racist and was very stupid in making the remark that he did. In Suarez case it is Uruguay teammates, Gus Poyet etc. and in the case of Atkinson it was a myriad of black players who had played for him over the years swearing he treated them exactly the same as anyone else in the dressing room.
The similarity is neither man was punished for being a white hood wearing, far right supporting, storm front posting bigoted racist, they were punished for saying something that is racist. Both men did it and whilst one has lost half a weeks wages and got a Christmas off the other lost almost his entire livelihood.
What I'm quite surprised about, and quite impressed by, is that Suarez has apparently admitted calling Evra 'negrito'. Now, he wooduv bin advised by lawyers and stuff on hat to say, and quite frankly, if he'd gone in and denied saying owt, then ittud simply be his worked against Evra's and probbly nowt wooduv happened.
Surely his honesty should go in his favour, no?
We have a multicultural premiership allied to a very British notion of what constitutes racism. That's the core issue and it isn't being addressed.
Rubbish the core issue is the FA/FIFA are saying it is fine to insult opponents in one way but it is nt in another way.
If they issued a statement stating that offensive language and deliberate taunts are no longer to be part of the game. They could then ban players appropriately.
The problem is the FIFA/FA heads are very old exfootballers who still think that insulting the opposition is a valid part of the game and are unable to move forward and accept it should be removed.
In otherwords they want to have there cake and eat it, ie they still condone aggressive offence language, while at the same time they want to condemn rasism.
Therefore they come up with these ludicrous decisions to ban one player for a non-PC insult and not the other player for just as offensive PC insults when both players should be punished.
One type of insult is against the rules and one isn't. So they punish the one who broke the rules just as they have done so in the past with other players who commited similar offences. How dare the FA be consistant!
One type of insult is against the rules and one isn't. So they punish the one who broke the rules just as they have done so in the past with other players who commited similar offences. How dare the FA be consistant!
Thats my point the rules are clearly wrong when decisions like this turn up. Both players use offensive language one player banned 8 games one player not banned at all !
The rule should be you cant use offensive language in the work place just like it is for the rest of us.
JY
I understand that words such as black/Pak/****/White/honkey etc can all be used in different ways from the merely descriptive to the deliberately offensive. So an Indian newspaper will happily run a headline including the word "Pak" or "****" without question, whereas this would be seen as offensive over here.
In this case, if it is all about the reaction (alleged) to the word negrito then there is some ambiguity. And the FA in all its glory have chosen to make a stand. My point was that this needs to be put in the context of foul abuse of all kinds that is routinely condoned (directly or indirectly) on and off the field at every match - for which the FA and the whole game should frankly feel ashamed.
Frankly calling someone a bast**d shouldn't be condoned at all (players, managers, refs...). Whether this is elaborated with another adjective of any kind is a second(ary?) insult
Suarez has used a term considered offensive here (and nobody surely can be so deluded that they think Suarez said it in a positive way). He's paying the price and should learn from it.
The term has allegedly used does not even exist here, there is even no proper translation of it that portrays the meaning behind it, so how can it be a term that is considered offensive?
Even if the translation of the alleged word does have the word "black" in it, the word "black" is not an inherently racist word, it is our own obssession with political correctness that makes these words rascist.
If a black guy turned around to me and said "hey my white friend", even if he said it in an aggressive manner, it would not bother me whatsoever.
Oops, I said black: does that make me racist too?
Surely his honesty should go in his favour, no?
I think it would have done if he had come clean at the beginning and openly admitted and apologised for what he said. Unfortunately I think he has had very bad advice from his club who have behaved at the very least naively throughout the whole affair. I think they come out of this worse than he does.
I think it would have done if he had come clean at the beginning and openly admitted and apologised for what he said. Unfortunately I think he has had very bad advice from his club who have behaved at the very least naively throughout the whole affair. I think they come out of this worse than he does.
I know two wrongs don't make a right, but what about Evra's apology to Suarez for using foul and abusive Spanish language, which he openly admitted in his evidence statement? Oh, and where is his ban?
If a black guy turned around to me and said "hey my white friend", even if he said it in an aggressive manner, it would not bother me whatsoever.
What if you'd pissed him off and he called you "a white idiot"?
Racist then?
Nope
Still...
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....something else for the scousers to be aggrieved about, and fuel the persecution complex they love so much. So ultimately, everyone's happy 😉
Believe me, as someone who had never had much hair, even at school, I know what it feels like to have a physical attribute used against me to try and belittle me, and the supposed spat between Suarez and Evra, from what we have heard, doesn't even come close.
Maybe I've just built up a thick skin over the years.
Edit:
...something else for the scousers to be aggrieved about, and fuel the persecution complex they love so much. So ultimately, everyone's happy
That's the other thing, people seem to think that the best thing that has come out of this is that Liverpool fans are upset, regardless of either the racism issue, or the fact that a potential injustice has occurred (delete as appropriate, depending on your point of view).
Maybe I've just built up a thick skin over the years.
On your bonce? I know that feeling? Wear a hat at all times! Especially in the sun! And moisturise! 😀
On your bonce? I know that feeling? Wear a hat at all times! Especially in the sun! And moisturise!
Racist 😆
With regards to the scousers being upset. Its not that as such. Since King Kenny came back I've just been intrigued to see if he can out-Fergie Fergie, so to speak.
Each week is a hotly contested competition to see who can do the best dour, persecuted, its-soooooooooo-NOT-FAIR!!!!!! moral indigence.
Lets be honest: its funny 😆
Thats my point the rules are clearly wrong when decisions like this turn up. Both players use offensive language one player banned 8 games one player not banned at all !The rule should be you cant use offensive language in the work place just like it is for the rest of us.
Using offensive language to abuse someone isn't against the law, using racially offensive language to abuse someone is. The rules of football reflect the law of the land, I really don't see your point.
From what I have heard, and this is yet to be confirmed and may be completely wrong, is that the conversation between the two was in Spanish: Evra called Suarez a "South American...", Suarez called Evra a "black man...".
Don't shoot me if this is wrong, just passing on the rumour.
binners in joining JY et al and making it about the clubs rather than racism shocka. How predictable.
John Terry is being charged - by the CPS, not the FA
John Terry is being charged - by the CPS, not the FA
Great news. Glad the CPS took it on when the FA showed that they're too cowardly to.
"FA" is such an appropriate acronym don't you think?
.What I'm quite surprised about, and quite impressed by, is that Suarez has apparently admitted calling Evra 'negrito'
Yes I am surprised you are praising a liverpool player its s a real shock.
My point was that this needs to be put in the context of foul abuse of all kinds that is routinely condoned (directly or indirectly) on and off the field at every match - for which the FA and the whole game should frankly feel ashamed.
Frankly calling someone a bast**d shouldn't be condoned at all (players, managers, refs...). Whether this is elaborated with another adjective of any kind is a second(ary?) insult
Ah go on its Christmas I will agree with you 😉
Yes you are right fans are often immense hypocrites.
I am pretty sure [ old firm derby aside] there is no racist chants at football games – I think Tottenham used to get hisses as the sound of gas in the 80’s by some teams due to jewish associations with said club…surely that does not happen. We have done well to eradicate this remember when John Barnes used to get bananas thrown at him by opposition fans
Even if the translation of the alleged word does have the word
"black" in it, the word "black" is not an inherently racist word, it is our own obssession with political correctness that makes these words rascist.
If a black guy turned around to me and said "hey my white friend", even if he said it in an aggressive manner, it would not bother me whatsoever.
Oops, I said black: does that make me racist too?
No but there is never any need to refer to race when you are one on one with someone and about to either insult or praise them is there? It is not inherently racist any more than calling a woman love is sexist it depends. Then again you can address them without reference to race so why not just do so so you don’t offend anyone – we are obsessed with being polite …no bad thing tbh.
k
now two wrongs don't make a right, but what about Evra's apology to Suarez for using foul and abusive Spanish language, which he openly admitted in his evidence statement? Oh, and where is his ban?
Retaliation is usually viewed worse by the football authorities but the racist element adds something to the - I don’t know why this is hard or contentious for some people to grasp tbh.
There may be some merit in prosecuting Evra and he may well deserve it but you would prosecute a player every week
Each week is a hotly contested competition to see who can do the best dour, persecuted, its-soooooooooo-NOT-FAIR!!!!!! moral indigence.
Lets be honest: its funny
yes
binners in joining JY et al and making it about the clubs rather than racism shocka. How predictable.
Thank god you dont let the fact it was Man u/evra cloud your judgement and you remained as objective as always eh?
I am not anti any football team as I love football and don’t get tribal about it – I have been to anfield more times than Old Trafford- great club, wonderfull atmosphere and have sung You will never walk alone , very rousing hairs on the back of the kneck stuff.
The team he played for is neither here nor there for me whatever you think.
John Terry is so brave
Don't agree with it all. When playing any sport things get heated and people often say the wrong things which later do regret. To me these are not racist as its a slip of the tongue just like Evra mouthed off ir Suarez. Very harsh ban and mario balotelli summed it up perfectly on twitter.
To me in football theres to much of the blaming each other, just get on with it and play football.
PS - I think racism is completely wrong and should be punished. However in certain heated moments it slips out and to me thats life. If someoene called me a white ...something I don't go crying racism!
Just my tuppens worth by the way!