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Right decision
Glad our own JJ is looking slippery again
Roberts has made the scottish midfield his bitches.
Wales under the high ball today have been imperious.
Roberts has made the scottish midfield his bitches
😆
**** me that was some defending from Wales
Welsh defence winning this in the last few minutes of the game.
Well Fin Russel had a shocker!
Well done on wales for the time wasting, that's what won them the game
Time wasting?
Yes, they delayed kick off after the conversion.
And kicked the ball away twice after scotland were given penalties
Two teams determined to make life difficult for themselves!
Not convinced the ref had a great grip on the game, Scotland looked good at the breakdown for 60 mins and some nice runs from the backs just lacking execution... Wales defended exceptionally well at the end, looked great with the ball in the air, good when the game broke up at the end but were pretty average at best given the massive territory and possession over the full game 😕
Liam Williams should start again. Really happy Biggar is looking in form again too as 10 has been a real problem area. Where are our locks after Ball and AWJ (and Charteris)? It is a shame Ian Evans has dropped off the radar for example after looking to be developing well a year or two ago. What happened to Bradley Davies as well?
I don't think Scotland can complain about the way the game ended- Hamilton's stupidity after the try should have been a penalty at the restart perhaps anyway. From a Scotland point of view I think they will feel hard done by but they got away with a lot of penalties near the try line in the first half without a binning so it is probably even overall...
From a Scotland point of view I think they will feel hard done by but they got away with a lot of penalties near the try line in the first half without a binning so it is probably even overall...
Maybe on the totting up but I think the high tackle should probably have been a yellow in its own right.
^ Can't disagree, but there were a lot of binnable offenses let slide so it isn't too shocking for how the entire game was reffereed
I don't think Scotland can complain about the way the game ended- Hamilton's stupidity after the try
Thought that at the time, crazy! Still as a neutral I would like to have seen a restart for the tension. Not great rugby but entertainment nonetheless. MJ and Jiffy doing a bit if a wind up on the red channel!!!!
er yes, Sexton looks world class, they look like they could compete with any Southern Hem team
I don't know if you're trolling or genuinely don't know much about rugby.
Sexton is as World class as we get in the NH for a 10 at the moment, certainly as far as the home nations go. I wouldn't say he is playing incredibly well at the moment but he didn't have a bad game either. He was 10 for the Lions for a reason (possibly lack of other better options!). Compete with any SH team though.... 😐
Yeah, that was my emphasis too Dan.
Last time I checked SA and Aus were in the southern hemisphere 😆 29-15 and 26-23 the last time we played them
I don't think any team has been that convincing but Ireland have been the most controlled. Much more to come from them in this championship.
Yep, kick for the corner -> lineout -> 3 points with little other attack won't cut it against the SH sides... maybe even not enough against rubbish England or super rubbish, sloppy Wales, who knows! 😀
Last time I checked SA and Aus were in the southern hemisphere 29-15 and 26-23 the last time we played them
I don't think that is relevant because it is clear that Ireland only won because they "wanted it more" on those days 😆 Joking of course. Scotland also have a decent recent SH record but I wouldn't put money on them doing it again in the WC
More important some bloke called Henson got a try today!!
Ireland haven't shown any of that in this competition so far though. A struggle against Italy, and a narrow win against the worst performance by a french side for years. BOD is sorely missed it seems.
Of course the best player we have ever had will be missed. Sorely missed? I'm not so sure, he wasn't around in the autumn and we had our best series I can remember.
We were +23 pts in Rome conceding 0 tries. Eng at home were +30 conceding 3 tries to a terrible team. France were woeful but were never looked like we were going to lose the game. Plenty of room for improvement however.
Or you beat a miss firing Wales team and Italy. I agree with Wrecker they look the best team in the 6 nations thus far but I'd be wary of Ireland who have had two good wins whilst playing well within their capabilities.
Yup Engkand look best team so far and like Ireland they've had good wins playing some way below potential.
Liam Williams should start again. Really happy Biggar is looking in form again too as 10 has been a real problem area. Where are our locks after Ball and AWJ (and Charteris)? It is a shame Ian Evans has dropped off the radar for example after looking to be developing well a year or two ago. What happened to Bradley Davies as well?
I would bring North back and drop Cuthbert. I'd also be tempted to start with Charteris over ball, thought he was good when he came on, Ball has been quiet. Davies is in the squad and has been coming back to form for Wasps apparently. Problem is they are all font of the lineout jumpers as is AW Jones. Evans is our only middle jumper and he buggered off to Bristol to play semi pro.
England put how many tries on italy? By +30 do you mean 47??? Same team that ireland got a very flattering scoreline against obscured by a coup,e of quick tries. What was the try count vs a really dreadful france? At home?
I admire you're confidence, blind melon, I'm just not sure it's justified.
Defence wins games and indeed World Cups, you England fans should know that 😉
Sure I could have scored that quick tap! Seriously it's going to be some battle in two weeks I agree with jambo that no side has been that convincing. but I do think that the front five is about evens, back row and half backs Ireland are superior. Centres advantage England on current showing and Ireland back three look much more accomplished. May in particular is a liability.
Well, I agree that it is going to be some game. I'll stop hypothesising and wait until the game now, the proof is in the pudding. I'm as worried about slipping up against a rubbish france (again) as I am of ireland, who we beat last year with a team not as good as this.
Just typical frustration of being a Scotland fan. Could have won the game. No point moaning about what ifs with yellows at the line or for high tackles or there being time for kick off again. We blew it in the 80 minutes by not taking chances and basic errors like not kicking to touch.
I genuinely believed we were past such issues and hoped we could beat the Welsh. No chance unless we can tighten those things up.
Wonder if Duckman has sobered up yet!
I genuinely believed we were past such issues and hoped we could beat the Welsh. No chance unless we can tighten those things up.
I can't help feeling Scotland played today against Wales a little like Wales played against England last week. There seemed a bit of similarity in expectations i.e. underdogs fancying their chances and execution, i.e. being a bit too overconfident and not really nailing things in the backs while getting out-muscled up front. I thought Scotland played pretty well against France but played a bit casually today which is where the errors came in (talking mainly about the backs and kicking game) like everything would just come together and happen without needing to concentrate so much at times. I really hate to say it but I wonder if their was a similar mentality in the approach of Scotland today and Wales last week based on the perhaps slightly over-hyped media expectations coming in to the game 😕 Just a random thought and admittedly Scotland played much better this week with minimal possession than Wales did last week!
Scotland's decision making is woeful. I can't believe that Laidlaw turned down an easy three points for a quick tap against an organised defensive line...if the ball and as quick and the Welsh players not aware of what was happening then yes, but not in that situation. Two missed kicks to touch isn't good enough either. They butchered a couple of good overlaps too with lads getting excited about scoring.
Halfpenny was immense for Wales. His ability in the air is fab. Wales were pretty solid, but I think they were let off by silly decisions and mistakes. They didn't seem to create too much.
Watched the rest of the Ireland game....didn't really get much better. Ireland certainly seem to be playing within themselves so far compared to the autumn, no doubt saving up a monumental performance for our trip to Dublin in two weeks. Heaslip could be a big loss for them though if his back doesn't get sorted...looked like a nasty cheap shot.
It's being reported in the Irish press Heaslip has 3 broken vertebrae in his back. I hope they are wrong
Very sad about heaslip if true. Anyone got one of those giffy things of the incident?
Evans is our only middle jumper and he buggered off to Bristol to play semi pro.
The funny thing is that he's earning more than the majority of that wales team AND he gets to live somewhere nice! 😀
Happy to of beaten Scotland 😆 I was driving a 7.5 back and fore to Hawkeshead from St Albans, so only heard a match report, both coaches alleging that there was reffing mistakes, is this an honest reflection?
I doubt he's earning more than North, the french based players or those on a central contract.
I doubt he's earning more than the French based players. The French clubs are not subject to a salary cap.
Ref got a few things wrong but was consistent Davies yellow was very harsh, Russell could have had a red. There was a high tackle by Webb on their sub nine. The better team on the day won though. Wales did piss about not taking kicks for goal which would have put the game to bed but went for the corners and ****ed it up as usual, they did this in the autumn, I do think they are using games as training at the moment, its very odd.
I doubt he's earning more than North, the french based players or those on a central contract.
Agreed. But he'll be earning more than the rest (and there are quite a few).
Pape knee:
And he gets to play with Gav!! Worth more than money.
impressive, must have done some "conditioning" during his time off!!
Thanks BM, I didn't really see it first time round. Sneaky French snuch that in.
Will Monsieur Pape get a few weeks rest for that? He'll be cited surely?
I'm not really seeing a great deal wrong with that knee. Not saying it wasnt a foul but its not the worst thing I have seen and there is smidgen of play acting by the Irish player. A bit of amateur dramatics by players on both sides in the Wales V Scotland game as well.
smidgen of play acting by the Irish player
If he has indeed fractured 3 vertibrae, I'd say he underplayed it if anything!
The French clubs are not subject to a salary cap.
And neither are the English championship clubs believe it or not!
If he has indeed fractured 3 vertibrae, I'd say he underplayed it if anything!
If thats the case then I take it back. I watched it from all the angles it just seemed cynical in my opinion and I wasnt getting the impression there was a huge amount of force. It wasnt my back however...
I would expect Pape to be cited and banned for the rest of the 6N
And neither are the English championship clubs believe it or not!
Is that right, I thought they where or at least the owners had a voluntary agreement ?
I'm not really seeing a great deal wrong with that knee. Not saying it wasnt a foul but its not the worst thing I have seen and there is smidgen of play acting by the Irish player.
That was my reaction too. I still think it was one of those things that happens every ruck or maul although the outcome for Heaslip is clearly awful. I don't think things like this should ever be judged on the effect, but the cause, as the injury is a bit of a freak thing (clearly horrible for Heaslip!).
The citing process does annoy me when you have 4 people looking at the video during the game and come to a decision yet you can guarantee the offence will get upgraded following a review then most of the extra ban time knocked off for taking the review panel a bouquet of flowers.
The problem with the foul isn't necessarily the relative tameness of it; it's the [i]possible[/i] outcome. In my view, a knee to the head or back is far worse than a knee to the leg for example. Backs are very fragile and whoever designed them needs shooting!
Is that right, I thought they where or at least the owners had a voluntary agreement ?
Getting the champ clubs to agree on something? 😆
Their agendas are so different, it would never happen. Aparently Bris and Wuss have similar operational spends.
I'm not sure I could see massively obvious intent from Pape in that. Just entering the ruck at full chat, perhaps recklessly when an opposition player is turned and in a very vulnerable position.
I can't see the kind of aiming you'd expect from a deliberate hit, he seems to be looking past Heaslip into the ruck. So he's either very good at disguising a cynical knee-plant, or is more concerned with hitting the back of the ruck hard.
Obviously the potential for the kind of injuries that Heaslip has suffered is the reason that refs have to take it seriously, but yellow seems about right.
Barnes and Heaslip have seen more blatant knees...
Red at the time and 5 weeks off
The problem with the foul isn't necessarily the relative tameness of it; it's the possible outcome.
I kind of agree but on that basis would you send off and ban Attwood (?) for kicking North in the head? Reckless, against the laws and an awful outcome. It is a bit of a slippery slope. The citation process is a joke though so our views are irrelevant either way
I don't think Attwoods kick was reckless. It certainly wasn't a foul and that's the main point.
Any time a lock tries to kick anything it is reckless 😆 Not the best comparison granted but I hate seeing someone get punished for something innocuous based on a freak outcome.
I don't see Pape's thing as any different to every lock ever running in to a tackle with high knees if the tackler goes low or a "handing off" elbow to the face of the tackler if they go high or the dozens of other bits of niggle they get involved in. Locks are horrible things!
I think it was both. Accidental but a pen nonetheless. Cant go round kicking out and catching peoples heads. Like Fin Russels hit on an airborne Bigger. Its reckless
Like Fin Russels hit on an airborne Bigger.
?
I disagree, Attwood was legally competing for a 50/50 ball. Russell ran into a bloke who was 4ft in the air for a ball which was loooong gone.
Attwood kicked North in the head knocking him out if that isnt reckless nothing is.
Attwood kicked North in the head knocking him out if that isnt reckless nothing is.
Reckless is headbutting a locks foot.
Oh and the Pape one is pure cheapshot and he should get a few weeks rest.
Did anyone see what the scrap at the end was about? Quite funny seeing Biggar march Baldwin off giving him a proper telling off!
Did anyone see what the scrap at the end was about?
Jim Hamilton doesn't need a reason to start a fight. He just fights.
Dumb play though just wasted more time. Then Russell took an age over the kick. He should have drop kicked it or had it teed up ready and waiting.
Looking at the Pape yellow,I think there is little in it.Bit like both yellows on Sat. Just watched the game and just because "One rule for Wales and another for whoever they are playing" Jonathan thinks one could be red and the other was just a penalty,doesn't make him right,neither of those was ever a red,but both were def yellow. Oh and Jackson was crap,but he was consistently crap,that is the single most important thing to have as a ref.
Ducks - what, if any, discretion is given to refs re "intent". Question relates directly to the yellow cards on the high balls. I see the technical offence in both and hence obvious penalty, but no intent in either especially Finn's yellow. So you decide not to challenge in the end, see a welsh player at pace with knees coming at you head and you turn away. Ok looked nasty, especially in slow mo, but can't see any intent to harm the other player. Clumsy at worst.
Does this matter? Or is it an automatic yellow?
Ditto hard line on this but rarely does blocking a kicker or late tackle get pinged?
Taking the player out in the air is dangerous. Russell was nowhere near the ball and made no attempt to get it, then shit out when he thought he might get hurt. Certain yellow and if Biggar had stayed down it could have been a red. Davies was at least near the ball and making an attempt I thought the yellow harsh.
Agree and agreed (he basically decided to look after #1 as most would do at that point since impossible to do anything else) hence the question, is INTENT relevant at all. Purely technical question - as the coverage showed everyone will have "their" view (red or blue) but that is different. I just would like to know the specific ruling.
Agreed ^3 but arguably, the welsh player knew more about what he was doing. But can't see a yellow in either personally. But then again I am wearing a white shirt!!! 😉
Talking of staying down the Scottish player (Lamont?) was never going to get up in a hurry was he!!! 😉
Was Beattie I think. The point about intent is what I was getting at earlier with Attwood booting North, no intent but reckless as with Warburtons tip tackle at the world cup. Players should have a duty of care over each other.
Perhaps, hence the question to our resident ref!
Ditto Rhys high tackle, again clumsy and the guy ducks so looks even worse. Should that have been a yellow? Duty of care to avoid high tackle? Not sure....but they have been given even when players duck into the tackle.
The head on heads are getting scary these days as is the clearing out. If you are defender and on your feet with hands over the ball and you get cleared out - your neck and spine seem just as vulnerable as when in the air. I am glad that my boots are firmly hung up these days. Different game, different game.....
Yes and no to A_A
I partly agree but does that mean that North became "untouchable" because he was diving for the ball? If that had been Atwood's shoulder (similar to Brown on Saturday) would you still be as bothered? Is it the stray boot that bothers you or the resultant injury? A "duty of care" is a tough one. Was Masi in the wrong against Brown? No it was 50/50 and he came out better.
Finn Russell deserved a yellow but what is he meant to do, teleport out if the way? How does a guy stop or prevent it in that situation? According to the law you can't 'tap' the guy in the air...
(i) Tackling the jumper in the air.
A player must not tackle nor tap, push or pull the foot or feet of an opponent jumping for the ball in a lineout or in open play.
Sanction: Penalty kick
What about this...this is extremely dangerous too...
Indeed, the rules seem to indicate penalty. But does a yellow require intent?
In real time, it seemed like a bad clash - but as you say there was nothing he could do. Ok, perhaps with greater timing he could have ducked, but not sure!!!
Didnt see the england game this weekend. If someone kicks a player in the head at a ruck its a pen dont see why it should be different in open play.
Is that Gethin. Dangerous play, off feet no arms but happens all the time in all pro games. The ruck needs sorting out. Should have been a pen against Hogg for not supporting his weight 😉
Finn Russell deserved a yellow but what is he meant to do,
Go for the ball or wait for the player to land.
Russell was so late to that ball (it had been caught and the catcher was on the way down) that he was to blame. He wasn't a passenger to his legs, he should have timed his run to hit matey when his feet hit the floor, just like the vast majority of other players manage to.
The only way to stop the Atwood/North instance reoccurring is to ban kicking the ball on the floor because once it's there, someone will be trying to dive on it and/or kick it.
Broadly in agreement with a_a on the various yellows. The results of a challenge (EDIT: a foul) will always affect the punishment. See Hogg's sending off last year. Payne's sending off against Saracens in the Heiney. There's no point in talking about intent anymore. They're professionals - they can't go wildly into challenges without a thought to consequences anymore. The Welsh yellow seemed harsh - penalty yes, but yellow...
The ref was consistently poor yesterday and tbh, after the first twenty, seemed to have lost confidence in his own decision making.
As for the Pape knee to Heaslip's back, rather than giving my view through green tinged spectacles, to counter the view through blue, navy, red or white tinged specs here, I'd go with the professionals' (neither of them Keith Wood) views given in the segment shown before the game yesterday. Williams and Nicol both said they thought it was deliberate, Nicol believing it will be upgraded to a red retrospectively. Only Guscott remained on the fence by saying that if Saint Andre has been told by his player that it was accidental, that that's the information he has to convey when asked. I'm drawing my own conclusions from that one. 🙂
[green tinge]I don't believe for a second it was accidental. I'm sure he didn't mean to fracture a vertebra(e) when doing it, but if he did and it were to end Heaslip's season (which from reading various press reports, seems likely), then he should be punished severely - certainly shouldn't play for the rest of the 6N. It probably lost France the game as they were gaining a foothold at that point but that isn't punishment enough IMO. He's not an inexperienced player - a 50+ internationally capped professional has no place going into an exposed player's back like that.[/green tinge]
Anyway, he has now been cited for it, so we'll wait and see what happens to him.
AA was the Gethin question for me? If so, no, it was a general comment. The body is so vulnerable in that defensive position. I shudder when I see unprotected necks being smashed by 19st at full pelt.
The ref was consistently poor yesterday and tbh, after the first twenty, seemed to have lost confidence in his own decision making.
Did help by having that **** Clancy whispering in his ear all ****ing game. He is a good ref usually needs a bit more experience of big games. Should have binned Cowan first half and any welshman near the end.
Glad you dont listen to Wood, makes Jiffy seem balanced.
The ref was consistently poor yesterday and tbh, after the first twenty, seemed to have lost confidence in his own decision making.
Did help by having that **** Clancy whispering in his ear all ****ing game. He is a good ref usually needs a bit more experience of big games. Should have binned Cowan first half and any welshman near the end.
Glad you dont listen to Wood, makes Jiffy seem balanced.
/p>
Edit no thm was for whoever posted the vid, could see who it was
Glad you dont listen to Wood, makes Jiffy seem balanced.
Of course I listen to him, he's great, but I'm more swayed by the neutrals' views from before the game yesterday. I'd disagree that anyone else could make Jiffy seem balanced though. 😀
Didnt see the england game this weekend. If someone kicks a player in the head at a ruck its a pen dont see why it should be different in open play.
You were talking about a "duty of care" not just kicking in the head, but still...
If you are in a ruck the head is generally static so a kick is more avoidable and probably more deliberate.
In open play are you saying you should be able to predict where someone's head might be and then not put your foot there or kick in that general direction? As a player North went for the ball knowing that someone might throw a boot at it, both brave but also somewhat foolish and he was hurt in the process.
First time I've seen that Pape knee vid and to me that's a red card then and there. Hopefully be banned for a while as it's dangerous and cynical.
I'd probably have red carded Russell for that 'challenge' on Biggar, dreadful effort.
The Welsh yellow card probably was about right. The 'high tackle' on the Scottish scrum half wasn't though, as the boy ducks/slips into is arm and all at pace.
The Welsh prop is guilty as per the below IRB law
(h)
A player must not charge into a ruck or maul. Charging includes any contact made without use of the arms, or without grasping a player.