[Closed] Stop the first US-style cow factory farm being built in the UK

excuse my ignorance, but why?

Signed

For the same reason you don't buy battery farmed eggs or chickens.

Keeping 8000 cows packed indoors for their lives is inexplicably cruel.

something about that site stops me signing up. Its the lack of any detail i think.

im inclined to agree that keeping cows indoors their entire life is not good.

You could always use the power of the internet soobalias.

[url= http://www.allinlondon.co.uk/blogs/showblog.php?post=1037 ]A bit more detail[/url]

Gigantic sheds, housing thousands of ‘battery’ cows which have little or no access to grazing and are milked a gruelling three times a day, producing milk that could have fewer nutrients.

Filmed at several locations in California over seven days in July by an undercover WSPA team posing as documentary makers, the footage reveals vast factory-like milk production systems where cows are housed in seemingly endless sheds surrounded by manure-filled lagoons, fly infestations and row upon row of female heifer calf crates.

“During our investigation we found school children having to drink bottled water to avoid the nitrate poisoning in their own well, residents unable to barbecue or play outside because of the swarms of biting flies, and streams clogged with nitrate-thriving algae. California’s dairies are a far cry from the folksy image they are marketed to be and this story should stand as a warning to British consumers, farmers and rural communities of what could happen should ‘mega-dairies’ get the go ahead and become commonplace in the UK.”

I've added my name to all the petitions they've done regarding this. They did manage to stop it once, but as often happens the instigator revises their plans and tries again, and again, and again, until they get their way.

Do sign though, the more the better.

Typical lefty nonsense.

The cows could choose to live in a field if they wanted to.

I for one want my meat cheap as my bonus was not as big as I wanted.

something about that site stops me signing up. Its the lack of any detail i think.

im inclined to agree that keeping cows indoors their entire life is not good.

I'm with you on this soobalias.

Aspects of this method might be legal in the US but European law is different. For example they are gradually disallowing cows to stand in their own waste, cows are now kept on slats which allow the waste to pass underneath and slough off into a pit. This reduces foot and respiratory problems and increases yield. So it may well be a bit of a red herring..

I'm with you on this soobalias.

On what?

i could do lifer, but the 38deg site rather fails to inspire confidence and not just on this topic

i would also suggest that the views of an internet mountainbiker are not really relevant, the decision will be taken by the local council and the environment agency

however WSPA has good information on this subject, the local council planning site accepts objections as well

I watched a documentary that featured these. They took a UK dairy farmer to one and he said he couldn't believe how happy the cows were, so I'm not convinced the cruelty aspect trasnposes from hens to cows. Perhaps cows want to be in the warm eating grain, perhaps its cruel to put them out in the rain?

I wouldn't want to live next door to one but from what I saw on the BBC prog the other week they didn't seem that terrible. The cows weren't distressed and I doubt there's any more cruelty than what goes on in most 'traditional' farms...

They took a UK dairy farmer to one and he said he couldn't believe how happy the cows were

Perhaps we should keep you in the same conditions and see if you are still smiling. 😯

Better than being out in the rain though mate 🙂

Whilst I don't really agree with these large scale units, as is typical with this type of thing, there is an awful lot of hysteria and over-emotive rubbish spouted about them, including that quoted above.

In response to the 3 quotes given by lifer,

Gigantic sheds, housing thousands of ‘battery’ cows which have little or no access to grazing and are milked a gruelling three times a day, producing milk that could have fewer nutrients.

Cows can't be "battery" reared as, if they're not comfortable and healthy, they won't produce milk. As for milking 3 type a day being "grueling", the more often a cow is milked the more comfortable it will be as it relieves pressure from the udder - many systems rely on the cow voluntarily going to be milked by machines.

vast factory-like milk production systems where cows are housed in seemingly endless sheds surrounded by manure-filled lagoons, fly infestations and row upon row of female heifer calf crates.

Yes they are large units, and yes there are large slurry pits on site but the cows themselves are kept in clean, fresh stalls and are free to roam around them if they wish - cows are generally quite lazy creatures, spending the vast majority of their time lying down eating/sleeping/chewing cud - it's how they work. The conditions are potentially better than a lot of "traditional" units.
For their own welfare, cows are routinely housed for several months over winter in the UK as it is.
The heifer crates spoken about are illegal in this country and therefore couldn't be used.

children having to drink bottled water to avoid the nitrate poisoning in their own well, residents unable to barbecue or play outside because of the swarms of biting flies, and streams clogged with nitrate-thriving algae

That I can't really comment on but it is my understanding that regulations have to be pretty tight on these sorts of things and punishments are already high for any farm found to be contaminating water supplies etc.

Better than being out in the rain though mate

Glad you find animal cruely funny. 🙁

I watched a documentary that featured these. They took a UK dairy farmer to one and he said he couldn't believe how happy the cows were,

I watched that also and was surprised at his comments but I would have thought he knew more about it than me! I did think that the waste 'disposal' looked a bit dodgy.
Personally I would rather see cows in a field than a shed, and what works for them in the US may not be so good here due to climatic differences (i.e. less heat and more grass here?).

For their own welfare, cows are routinely housed for several months over winter in the UK as it is.

LHS

Perhaps we should keep you in the same conditions and see if you are still smiling.

That anthropomorphic comment is exactly the type of thing I'm talking about. I would imaging if we buried you in a closed network of muddy, damp, light-free tunnels you'd be very upset, but it keep ants happy. Extreme example I know but equally in-comparable.

if it was local to be i would resist it via the proper channels, as it is, i will continue to vote with my 'hard earned' through the diary and the butchers

if the problem is that we cannot produce enough meat dairy for the population, then i suggest a population cull before we go down the intensive farming route.

Perhaps we should keep you in the same conditions and see if you are still smiling.

You could keep me in the nicest conditions in the world, I still wouldn't be smiling if you milked my wife every day then killed my children, ate them and used their flesh for shoes. 🙂

Cows can't be "battery" reared as, if they're not comfortable and healthy, they won't produce milk

Unless they are exposed to high levels of artificial light, fed grain and injected with growth hormones! - but they wouldn't be that cruel would they?

http://www.sustainabletable.org/issues/hormones/

Glad you find animal cruely funny

Since you were the one making light of my serious comments its clear you find animal cruelty funny.

Extreme example I know but equally in-comparable.

Think i've missed your point, are you saying that if you put any animal or human in conditions that are unnatural and cruel they won't be happy?

Since you were the one making light of my serious comments its clear you find animal cruelty funny

Don't be a fool, I don't think anything either of the sort.

If you agree with the treatment of animals in this way then fine, point made, now move on.

GrahamS, where can i buy the childflesh shoes from? are they waterproof and warm?

Yeah it's more cruel not to milk them regularly, on a different program I saw where they had automatic milking machines they had to put in a control so cows couldn't be milked more than a certain frequency as they kept coming back to be milked way more often than they actually needed to.

Agree though the waste issue needs to be bullet-proof before they should be allowed.

I was surprised the supermarkets didn't seem to be supporting the plans though, although I'm sure as soon as one of the big 4 did the others would quickly (and quietly) follow.

If you agree with the treatment of animals in this way then fine, point made, now move on.

I didn't say I agreed with it, I'm open minded at the moment, the evidence I've seen is that it isn't cruel, no doubt done badly it is cruel.

LHS - you really do believe everything you read dont you?

Unless they are exposed to high levels of artificial light, fed grain and injected with growth hormones! - but they wouldn't be that cruel would they?

Artificial light won't count for diddly squat if a cow is uncomfortable or unhealthy. You ask any Dairyman worth his salt and he will tell you that the first sign a cow is ill is a reduction in the amount of milk she is producing. No matter what you think about farming, it's financial suicide to keep unhealthy cows.
And again. the use of growth hormones are banned in the EU - another reason to stick with UK food & produce!

are you saying that if you put any animal or human in conditions that are unnatural and cruel they won't be happy?

Nope, what I'm saying is the type of enterprise you're current debating isn't cruel. And define "natural" when discussing the average high yielding dairy cow - I don't see many in the wild and they would struggle to survive.

During our investigation we found school children having to drink bottled water to avoid the nitrate poisoning in their own well, residents unable to barbecue or play outside because of the swarms of biting flies, and streams clogged with nitrate-thriving algae.

a little scaremongery there. Drinking water and streams etc are very heavily regulated here. Any discharges from the farm would have to be consented to by the EA. I am relatively local to this farm development. There seems to be a large amount of NIMBY ism involved though. The main arguments i have heard in the local press centre around traffic movements, with everything else used as a supporting argument.

That petition website offers no information other than scarey tales with no evidence.

The farmers argument for the dairy is that it is the sensible way to be able to remain competive. The supermarkets are forcing this type of development by pushing prices down. If people do not want this, then vote by not buying milk etc.

It is market forces that drive this type of thing.

So taking an animal, keeping it in unnatural light, feeding it growth hormones, then injecting it with antibiotics to stop the infections because of increasing its yield is not cruel in anyway whatsoever?!

Deluded.

Natural? Well around where I live, the cows are free to wander around lush green meadows eating healthy grass. I'll take that over the dire conditions you are advocating any day thanks.

im interested to see this lush green meadow in the uk this month.

It is market forces that drive this type of thing.

Exactly. The best way to counteract this sort would be to pay a reasonable price for the milk we use, not the cheapest we can possibly buy. Dare I even suggest getting your milk delivered from the local dairy? This obviously applies to pretty much the whole food chain.

Whilst this is an important topic that needs careful consideration and INFORMED debate, the your ill informed emotional rantings are doing nothing to help your cause

So taking an animal, keeping it in unnatural light, feeding it growth hormones, then injecting it with antibiotics to stop the infections because of increasing its yield is not cruel in anyway whatsoever?!

If you actually read my post, the use of growth hormones is BANNED in the EU so couldn't possibly be used. And if you honestly think farmer randomly use expensive antibiotics just in case the cow gets an infection you are sadly mistaken - cows in a well run profitable enterprise, will be monitored closely and treated for disease WHEN Necessary. Would you rather no drugs were used and infections were left to fester?

Natural? Well around where I live, the cows are free to wander around lush green meadows eating healthy grass. I'll take that over the dire conditions you are advocating any day thanks.

Do you see many cows out eating lush pasture at this time of year? No, because there is no grass growth and they would turn any field into mush within hours. They are HOUSED for a good 3-4 months of the year and looked after indoors, away from the elements.

All I can do is suggest that you take a step back from your utopian ideal world and actually think about what really happens in life. The fact remains that if a cow was "Unhappy" or "creully treated" it wouldn't produce sufficient milk to be provfitable.

All I can do is suggest that you take a step back from your utopian ideal world and actually think about what really happens in life.

And all I ask is that you take your blinkers off and start looking at more responsible farming and thinking about the welfare of the animals rather than 5p off your pint of milk.

The fact remains that if a cow was "Unhappy" or "creully treated" it wouldn't produce sufficient milk to be provfitable.

Rubbish.

And all I ask is that you take your blinkers off and start looking at more responsible farming and thinking about the welfare of the animals rather than 5p off your pint of milk.

The biggest problem facing UK farming is the fact that the UK consumer (rightly) demands the best in welfare standard for animals farmed in this country, yet is happy to then go to the nearest supermarket and buy the cheapest produce imported from countries with questionable welfare standards. This creates an impossible situation in which farmers are forced to sell "better quality" higher welfare meat at minimal profit.
Trust me - I have no blinkers on as I would struggle to do my job otherwise.

And regarding your last comment, can I ask what make you qualified to completely reject my opinions?

LHS, I think you are mistaking people's open mindedness to this approach for advocacy of it.

STW tends towards cuddly leftism, so you are probably preaching to the converted, it's just that your debating style is to be frank, awful. When it comes to food I buy organic or ethically produced primarily because it tastes better, but welfare is certainly a big consideration for me. The procedures surrounding these farming methods are not being presented to me at the moment in enough detail to make an informed decision, but if it is judged that cows are happy living in a big shed and the milk is safe and tastes OK then I'll drink it.

djglover - I entirely agree, and I would like to hope that that is the view of most open minded, responsible people.... Unfortunately that probably isn't the case

"STW tends towards cuddly leftism"

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahaahahahahahaahah!!!

Excellent!

😀

All I can do is suggest that you take a step back from your utopian ideal world and actually think about what really happens in life.

And all I ask is that you take your blinkers off and start looking at more responsible farming and thinking about the welfare of the animals rather than 5p off your pint of milk.

The fact remains that if a cow was "Unhappy" or "creully treated" it wouldn't produce sufficient milk to be provfitable.

Rubbish.

LHS you are talking rubbish mate sorry.

1) Have you ever visited an abattoir? No amount of free range treatment will remove the horror that happens here.
2) Milk yield is implicitly linked to animal welfare and happiness. See my first google result to prove this [url= http://www.ufaw.org.uk/documents/green.pdf ]here[/url] and just follow your nose.

Signed. I only buy organic dairy stuff so am voting with wallet too.

Signed.

Seems like a crappy existence for the cattle.

Won't the meat be crappy too if the muscles are never exercised ?

trailmonkey - that's all veal is, albeit from calves.

Pretty tasty though

The fact remains that if a cow was "Unhappy" or "creully treated" it wouldn't produce sufficient milk to be provfitable.

Cows are kept in a "post pregnant state" so they continue producing milk. Even if it's not hormones, or whatever is banned in the EU, some chemical is keeping them that way. Because they are kept in this state they become extremely tired and suffer because of it, at which point they are killed and replaced with the next lot. They never reach old age as such.

Additionally, the cows are kept on a regular dose of antibiotics to keep disease at bay. Once it has infiltrated the group it's hard to stamp out. Any species, cow or otherwise, kept in large groups will be vulnerable to disease spreading quickly.

Humans are becoming more and more resistant to anti-biotics because they consume so much of it, in small doses, through eating meat and dairy products on a daily basis.

Having a "mega dairy" exacerbates the existing issues of dairy and meat farming.

trailmonkey - that's all veal is, albeit from calves.

Pretty tasty though

A little different though as veal is from young animals not older, tougher beasts.