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Got caught out by a speed camera on the M6 tonight. It flashed when I was in a variable speed limit - 50Mph. I never reduced my speed in time, I was still in the low 70's. Around 72 to 74mph I think.
Can't stop worrying about whether this will be just the standard £100 fine or will it be considerably more ?
Will this be a court summons ? Considering that this is going to go down as 22 to 24mph above the limit.
Anyone have any ideas ?
I've been flashed four times and never heard anything from any of them. Three were in France mind, but never heard anything from the one on A68, high 60s in a 60 zone.
Not all of them actually do anything.
I've read that some of the older speed cameras don't always work.
But having just done some research the sort of camera that got me is part of SMART Motorways which is a very new thing and works with variable speed limits so they are going to have the latest technology and I'm pretty sure these are going to work.
I never knew these variable speed limits were so strict otherwise I would have paid more attention and slowed down a lot sooner.
I never knew these variable speed limits were so strict
... being 50% over the limit is too strict?
I mean, I didn't know speed cameras enforced variable limits. Apart from those average speed check ones which have been around for a while. It's quite a new thing this SMART Motorways system where the speed cameras also adjust to the variable speed limits and these go off instantly if one doesn't slow down to the new variable speed straight away.
With it being nearly 50% over the limit, am I right in thinking the penalty is going to be much more serious than the standard 3 points and £100 fine ?
Oh dear. Deliberately speeding because you didn't think you'd get caught, I rather suspect that you're going to be high-horsed quite quickly here I'm afraid.
A few things to consider:
Your speedo almost certainly overreads. If you were doing "low 70s" indicated, you were likely doing mid- to high-60s in real money.
66+ in a 50, you're looking at 4-6 points and a potential short ban along with a hefty fine. Think a week's wages. Your "standard" £100 isn't a standard, it's a minimum. Sorry.
The guidelines for eligibility for an awareness course used to be 10%+2, I'm not sure if that's still the case though. I suspect it's dependent on the local force's policies. 70 in a 50 though, yeah, you've almost certainly bollocksed that.
There is a degree of leeway when the limit changes, you're allowed time to react. Ie, if it suddenly drops from 70 to 50 as you pass the gantry, you aren't going to be penalised for not standing the car on its nose.
Some cameras just flash rather than record. Whether this is the case on the M6 "managed motorway" sections I couldn't say, I doubt it but you might get lucky.
They have to notify the registered keeper within 14 days. If you don't hear anything in the next fortnight then congratulations, you got away with it.
Good luck, and slow the hell down. Variable speed limits have some actual logic behind them.
Quite often these variable limits are left on wayyyy after the accident or hazard has cleared.
I'd take a guess and say the poster above me doesn't regularly use the M1/M25 area otherwise you would in no way think they have much logic behind them -other than revenue creation
No, but I use the M6 fairly often, which is what we're discussing.
And yeah, you're right, as far as it goes. Matrix signs crying wolf about a potential hazard ahead that's been mopped up ages ago does no-one any favours. They need to be better at this otherwise people ignore them. But the M6 traffic management, as much as it pains me to say it, works pretty well on the whole. By slowing traffic flow a little you avoid the 70 - 0 - 70 - 0 stop-start fluctuation which creates phantom traffic jams.
You’ll be in band B or C according to this..
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/legal/speeding-fines/
I think it depends a bit on the local authority and sometimes the fine is related to your income, eg equivalent to 2 week’s wages or similar.
First offence on a clean licence? Might be offered a speed awareness course…
Pretty much what @cougar says really and yes, might be an idea to slow down a bit…. Could save your (or someone else’s) life……
I would have paid more attention and slowed down a lot sooner.
Is your whole thread just trolling ?
Are you really suggesting that you speed every where without paying attention?
When and Where on the M6? And what were the traffic conditions at the time? Was it in a smart M-way section?
some flash but don't record, but it depends on what's going on at the the time.
depending on your history, you might get a speed awareness course, otherwise minimum will be £100 and 3 points.
Your speedo almost certainly overreads. If you were doing “low 70s” indicated, you were likely doing mid- to high-60s in real money
Sorry cougar but people need to stop quoting this kind of nonsense. Just because the law says it is allowed to over read by a certain amount does not mean it does and certainly not by the same amount at all points in the range. Your Speedo might be over reading but it might not. Instrumentation generally gets more accurate the higher up its range so I would expect a smaller error at higher speeds.
I mean, I didn’t know speed cameras enforced variable limits.
The massive signs on every gantry not enough of a clue for you? 🙄 You should use all these excuses you've given us on here in defence if you get a court summons, I reckon you'd get off scot-free.
It's exactly this sort of complacency that means you get seriously tailgated when you actually go at 50 in a variable zone because some arse thinks they know better and 50 doesn't really mean 50 and there is no consequence.
I agree that the people who arrange these things need to do a better job of turning them off promptly when no longer needed. But it's clear from the OP that we, the drivers, need to do a better job of actually responding to them responsibly rather than acting like children and thinking they only matter if you might get caught.
I rather suspect that you’re going to be high-horsed quite quickly here I’m afraid.
He’s not wrong. Brace yourself!
Re speedos over-reading it’s worth a check on your own if you’ve got a gps device.
Leave a Garmin or other unit of your choice running while driving and see what happens (set running before you leave and in plain sight so you’re not fiddling with it whilst driving etc).
Every car I’ve had has done something similar to this - the current one shows an indicated 76 at actual 70, indicated 55 at actual 50 etc - I.e about 10% over.
The cars average speed function is much more accurate - within 1-2 mps of reality.
The Speedo offset is deliberately designed in to take account of (1) a fairy inaccurate measurement and device and (2) inconsistent and varying tyre diameter due to wear. It has to be guaranteed to never under read, hence being set a little bit high.
All cars will do this to a degree (unless they’re using GPS for their speedo which seems unlikely) but will be a bit different though so don’t take my or anyone else’s word for it if you plan to make use of this - try it to yourself!
singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/speed-camera-flashed-74mph-in-a-50mph-m6-variable-speed-limit/#post-12044698
50mph variable limits are also used to reduce pollution.
50mph variable limits are also used to reduce pollution.
Yes, alongside the Sheffield exits for instance. They still trigger fines though.
If you were doing “low 70s” indicated, you were likely doing mid- to high-60s in real money.
The difference is probably not going to be that big.
My car overreads by about 2-3mph according to the gps speed in Google maps.
Brace yourself!
This!
I recently got caught on the M25 doing 73mph in a section that was reduced to 60mph. I was offered a "smart motorway awareness course" but I am not sure if this is the same for every region.
I never knew these variable speed limits were so strict otherwise I would have paid more attention and slowed down a lot sooner.
Mate, you were already over the unrestricted speed limit 🙂
Bottom line, no point worrying or trying to work out what might happen, just wait for the letter over the next couple of week and then deal with it if one turns up.
Good example of why the fines and penalties need to be high. If getting off lightly for 74 or in a 50 why not just go 120 in a 50. A line needs to be drawn and it is way under 74.
And yeah, you’re right, as far as it goes. Matrix signs crying wolf about a potential hazard ahead that’s been mopped up ages ago does no-one any favours. They need to be better at this otherwise people ignore them. But the M6 traffic management, as much as it pains me to say it, works pretty well on the whole. By slowing traffic flow a little you avoid the 70 – 0 – 70 – 0 stop-start fluctuation which creates phantom traffic jams.
D'you know, I don't really have a problem with it, just because you don't seem get to the pogoeing so much any more - maybe it's done on purpose?
I never knew these variable speed limits were so strict
All speed limits are strict. The only difference is a lot of people don't get caught.
Skoda Kodiaq over reads by 1-2mph on the cruise control at the national motorway/autoroute limits. Tested on the run to the Alps in both mph and km against a Garmin Fenix - cruising at 130kmph for 8 hours means I’m extremely sure about the kmph numbers, a bit less so on the mph but pretty sure.
On the speedo you get another couple of mph.
So less than 5mph discrepancy at 70mph.
Other cars? Who knows?
But if the camera caught you at over 70mph you have no “the speed limit changed / it caught me out defence” - not that that would have been much good anyway.
What time do day did this happen? I recently set off the speed camera on the Smart section m4 near the m32 .
It was after 8pm and the smart lanes weren’t in operation. No further action happened.
Your speedo almost certainly overreads. If you were doing “low 70s” indicated, you were likely doing mid- to high-60s in real money.
That can be true, but a new car with new tyres it certainly may not be - unfortunately this makes driving gods drive at an indicated 76 or then factor in the guideline 10%+2 for prosecution and drive at an indicated 86!
66+ in a 50, you’re looking at 4-6 points and a potential short ban along with a hefty fine.
You won’t get a ban and points it is one or other.
Your “standard” £100 isn’t a standard, it’s a minimum.
It is standard in that fixed penalty is three points + £100. If it goes to court then the sentencing guidelines apply. The £100 is not a minimum, although in reality it may appear so, you can choose to go to court and argue why it should be less - in some very rare circumstances people do succeed.
The guidelines for eligibility for an awareness course used to be 10%+2,
That’s never been the limit for an awareness course! 10%+2 (ie 57 in a 50) is the first speed at which a police force will normally prosecute, or offer alternatives to prosecution such as courses or fixed penalties. The point where they no longer offer courses is widely publicised - we don’t have them in Scotland so I can’t recall where it is but it must be higher than 10%+2! Remember they are only guidelines and they can choose to refer to court at their own discretion, and can chose to prosecute at 1 mph over the limit if they want to (and on a motorway base the evidence on the judgement of one cop etc!)
They have to notify the registered keeper within 14 days. If you don’t hear anything in the next fortnight then congratulations, you got away with it.
Not so fast… the OP may not be the registered keeper. Lease cars, company vehicles often have the V5 / keeper details set at the actual owner. They have to tell them within 14 days. There can be a series of others who get informed before it gets to the driver, depending how fast each respond (each person in the chain has 28 days to reply from their s172 notice) you may be waiting a while before the sigh of relief!
Variable speed limits have some actual logic behind them.
Yes people would probably get on better with them if they realised that if there was a fixed limit it might be set at 50 all the time; and what is happening is you are occasionally allowed to exceed the default rather than the default being 70 and frequently forced to slow down.
The people who adjust the limit get no financial benefit from more people being caught speeding, even indirectly. Anyone who claims it is just a revenue generator is either making excuses for their own errors or accepts everything they read in the mail/express/sun without challenge.
Re, speedo's vs. GPS, I've always assumed GPS underestimate car speeds as the calculation compares xy ditsnce to time, and depending on the sampling interval , means that bends etc. are straightlined, underestimating distance and thus speed.
I used to do loads of miles in a previous job, and balancing making appropriate progress on motorways vs the wish to stay clear of points I have always checked my speedo readings in multiple cars to give me an idea what a real 70 (or maybe 72-73) would be.
Either by putting it in cruise at 60mph and seeing how long it took me to do a mile using the markers by the side of the road (16 markers = 1 mile). Should be exactly 60s - and then a bit of maths knowing that 6s over the minute means I'm give or take 10% slower, 3s over would be 5%, etc. you have a good enough idea. And latterly of course by GPS where you can check at different speeds too.
In all my years of doing this - 25 odd years and (quick count) nine cars, I've never had one that's more than 3mph under at 70, ie: indicated 73 = actual 70
So all this driving at 80+ because of the margin for error and police latitude, etc. - it's speeding pure and simple, and you knows it. As I did when i used to sit at cruise at an actual 73 or so, or occasionally higher when 'making time.
Mate, you were already over the unrestricted speed limit 🙂
A point few have focused on, surprisingly.
I rather suspect that you’re going to be high-horsed quite quickly here I’m afraid.
He’s not wrong. Brace yourself!
Been relatively gentle so far.
I'm by no means a perfect driver but I know not to take chances with variable limits, smart motorways and speed cameras.
the speed you were travelling at the time of the offence must fall within the acceptable speed range (Speed limit + 10% + 9mph). For example, in a 30 mph limit – you could attend a course up to 42mph inclusive.
D’you know, I don’t really have a problem with it, just because you don’t seem get to the pogoeing so much any more – maybe it’s done on purpose?
Absolutely. The reason they seem to stay on longer is because they're doing their job. The 50 restriction you're in is likely a response to something 10 miles up the road that if the speed limit is managed properly you'll never see. If it wasn't managed you'd plow on at 70 then bunch up behind it and end up with a huge tailback as the bunch builds quicker than it clears.
Often the orange matrix signs are nonsense though.
There's every chance you'll be offered a "Motorway Driving Awareness Course" . I got caught out late one night in a length of the M62 that changed from 40 to 50 to back to 40 then back to 50 then back to 40. I was doing just under 50 as I went under one of the gantries with a 40 on it. It goes without saying I was pleased to be offered the course which was entertaining and informative, and wiled away a coupe of hours of lockdown.
Better hope it wasn't Staffordshire!
I got a letter and photo from them showing 70 in a 60 on a smart motorway bit earlier this year. Same speed everyone else around me was doing. Offered the choice of £100 fine plus 3 points or attending a motorway awareness course, anywhere in England. I live in Scotland so figured I'd just opt for the fine but then read on and discovered covid meant all the courses were online - £85 and no points attached.
Course was all about smart motorways, actually pretty interesting as we don't have them in Scotland (AFAIK). First 10 minutes was outraged-of-Cheshire railing at the unfairness of it all but the guy running it just wanted to get everyone through it with minimum hassle so it soon settled down.
There was something in the letter saying you're only offered a course once and only if your speed is within certain boundaries. I think I just scraped in, not sure you should be counting on it.
Needless to say I've been a bit more careful since, so I guess the course worked!
Re, speedo’s vs. GPS, I’ve always assumed GPS underestimate car speeds as the calculation compares xy ditsnce to time
Nope
GPS (basically) constantly use the time difference in signals from multiple satellites to calculate location and speed over the earth's surface.
Nothing to do with distance covered!
Imagine how disastrous it would be for shipping if gps under-read!
In roadworks the limit is enforced with average speed cameras (except on the M1 where the cameras aren't connected). Variable speed limits use GATSO-type cameras on the gantries.
You might be alright because they're not particularly reliable. I see the cameras go off multiple times for rep-mobiles on my journey to and from work and they're clearly not being banned on every trip. Much more dangerous are the people who drive at 95+ and then stamp on the brakes for every gantry.
This link may be of interest
https://www.aph.com/community/holidays/will-i-get-a-speeding-ticket-what-happens-after-the-flash/
It boggles my mind that some speed cameras still need to have film loaded in them!
All cars will do this to a degree (unless they’re using GPS for their speedo which seems unlikely) but will be a bit different though so don’t take my or anyone else’s word for it if you plan to make use of this – try it to yourself!
I saw a table of stats on this somewhere and while many/most cars do over report to some degree there are quite a few that barely do at all.
Audi or BMW ? 😉
8 hours, nearly 40 posts, yet nobody has found a way to blame cyclists. Come on STWers, you're slipping.
Nope
GPS (basically) constantly use the time difference in signals from multiple satellites to calculate location and speed over the earth’s surface.
Nothing to do with distance covered!
Yes, but it calculates speed from distance (given by location) and time.
Basically, the signage for speed limit changes (and other features) on SMART motorways was a missed opportunity and is a crock of shit.
There was an oppo to introduce features to indicate a change of speed limit was upcoming / this is the new speed limit from this point / this is the speed limit in force.
This would have allowed the traffic to better manage the change in speed and made it far more obvious the limit has changed, y'know, in the spirit of SMART, dynamically managed motorways.
"Wah! You should be watching the speed limit any way! Etc".
Yes. But in a busy, dynamic, heavy traffic environment, giving me better cues means i can spend more time texting.
. I see the cameras go off multiple times for rep-mobiles on my journey to and from work and they’re clearly not being banned on every trip.
Apparently 10,000 drivers are over 12 points but aren't banned due to the "hardship" exemption.
That may be the first decree of my benign dictatorship.
GPS (basically) constantly use the time difference in signals from multiple satellites to calculate location and speed over the earth’s surface.
Isn’t that just saying gps calculates speed is calculated from measuring the distance then divide by by time?
Isn’t that just saying gps calculates speed is calculated from measuring the distance then divide by by time?
No. For that to work the receiver would need to be carrying around an atomic clock.
Is your whole thread just trolling ?
Are you really suggesting that you speed every where without paying attention?
Called!