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Maybe the workers on Southern are the problem?
So you're saying that the workers on Southern are different to the workers for all of the other TOCs? Give over.
As I opened with neither are probably right, both are probably wrong to some extent too. Drawing lines in the sand won't get anybody long term job security or conditions.
I agree to an extent. It's war now, which is rather convenient for Southern and the Government, as it diverts attention from the fact that they are completely incompetent at running a rail service.
If drivers strike to bring the Army in
What are they going to do? Force them to work at gunpoint?
edit: bugger, beaten to it.
So you're saying that the workers on Southern are different to the workers for all of the other TOCs? Give over.
And the first part of my reply? Are the southern workers refusing the same deal as the other toc's are offering?
Doesn't matter how many squaddies are trained now, start training them now and within 4 weeks we'll have 000's of squaddies able to drive trains.. we "the public" will suffer 4 weeks delay, since we're already being delayed now, for the fact that something cohesive and in the national interest is being done towards a solution to the "stand and deliver" hiwayman attitude currently in vogue by those "employed" by Southern Rail.
Sack em' all.
They'll be chuffing nothing they can do after that. If the try to picket train stations or enter train owned premises there's plenty of Laws to choose to evict them off them.
Sack em', sack em' now.
It's a national disgrace and fitting of a country returning to the 70's post Brexit.
Selfish tossers.
And the first part of my reply? Are the southern workers refusing the same deal as the other toc's are offering?
See the second half of my reply - it's all gone way beyond that now.
My point is simply that all of the other TOCs managed to come to an agreement with the union. There is only one variable here...
the end is neigh for thier job.
They're recruiting horses now!?
Selfish tossers.
Haven't you got a train to catch?
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Haven't you got a train to catch?
There are none at all today, WFH!
Can we get Binners banned from these threads, the massive pictures of people I don't know are really ****ing annoying.
So why has the same resolution not been agreed?we had the same thing fairly recently between Scotrail and the unions so you are not alone. Pretty much said the same thing in that case.
Awwwwwww... bless.....
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😛
4 weeks to train a driver? Aye okay. Idiot...
you're flogging a dead horse there mateythe end is neigh
However, full marks for
They'll be chuffing nothing they can do
And the thread disintegrates between you three as the last one did. 🙄
Am I one third of the problem?! In this instance I mean 🙂
I do have a genuine interest in discussing it, but I do get massively irritated by people's misinformed stances. It's not about profits. There are no profits. At least half the posts here decrying GTR are on the basis of them "putting profit first" or something, which is just flat wrong.
Then you've got people like Binners, who have absolutely no interest in actually discussing the issue, and just post 'hilarious' pictures of his heroes.
Scotroutes point is definitely a valid one, but the Southern franchise is operated very differently to any other (see the aforementioned profit point), which does mean a higher degree of resilience on the point of GTR. They're not losing out as part of the strikes.
Ultimately conductors are screwed as they simply aren't needed in the vast majority of cases anymore. So Unions can fight this, but in 1 or 2 years time we'll be back at the same point. If you were the government then priority one would be to sort out the Unions and afterwards number 2 is sort out Southern and get them to buck their ideas up.
Njee,
Can you summarise the differences of the southern franchise (and perhaps the reasoning behind it)?
From where Im sat, the objections to DOO seem to be protectionism, but Im wondering if there is something behind it that hasnt been highlighted yet.
Ban people from threads if they disagree with you?
Wow.
the people fighting to save their jobs.
In the same way that a Sailing Ship Crew might have fought to protect their jobs.
Some jobs become obsolete as technology changes. It's sucks, but striking doesn't solve that problem.
Southern Rail isn't that bad, you should try using Arriva Trains Wales.
From where Im sat, the objections to DOO seem to be protectionism, but Im wondering if there is something behind it that hasnt been highlighted yet.
Conductors are on their way out. Driverless trains are already possible and in service.
I suspect the union feels they have to fight every single potential replacement of staff by technology or there won't be many staff left in 20 years time.
It's an existential battle for the Unions. Equally the train firms can't employ people on a charity basis forever.
That's my take on it, anyway.
Southern Rail isn't that bad, you should try using Arriva Trains Wales.
You have no idea how bad it is here if you really believe that.
hilarious' pictures of his heroes.
😆 you need to go do some research
Southern Rail isn't that bad, you should try using Arriva Trains Wales.
Yes, yes, but thats not in the [s]epicentre of the whole ****ing universe[/s] South East, is it? So nobody cares
Haha you should try an Arriva Train, if it turns up on time or ever. The amount of times I've had to drive to pick up a friend from somewhere in the valleys because arriva have just cancelled the trains with no replacement services, is horrific.
plus they're cramped and dont go anywhere useful. Thanks Beecham.
Yes, yes, but thats not in the epicentre of the whole ****ing universe South East, is it? So nobody cares
hahaha too right! Forgot i'll eff off then 😉
Njee,Can you summarise the differences of the southern franchise (and perhaps the reasoning behind it)?
It's a colossal over simplification, but simply:
- most franchises are run on the basis of the franchisee saying "we will pay you, the government, X to operate this franchise and we will keep the operating profits".
- Southern/Thameslink is run on the basis of "we, the government, will pay you to run this franchise, we will keep all profits".
As such, there is precisely zero incentive for Southern to back down, compromise, or indeed actually run a single train. However, they cannot be accused of putting profits first!
I suspect the union feels they have to fight every single potential replacement of staff by technology or there won't be many staff left in 20 years time.It's an existential battle for the Unions. Equally the train firms can't employ people on a charity basis forever.
Probably not a million miles off! How long has DLR been entirely staffless? 25 years?
Ban people from threads if they disagree with you?Wow.
Post brexit Britain innit.
I posted this on the last thread,[url= http://www.londonreconnections.com/2016/railway-roulette/ ]Perhaps you should all read it?[/url]
So why should these unions have the power to throw their toys out of the pram and disrupt thousands of peoples lives, because they don't agree with something.
Because without it, it's just a race to bottom for everyone except the top 0.1%. Whether you like it or not, we have all benefited from better employee rights which Unions have fought for over the last 100 years or so.
It doesn't mean the Union is always right, but on average we're all better off for them.
Probably not a million miles off! How long has DLR been entirely staffless? 25 years?
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Southern Rail isn't that bad, you should try using Arriva Trains Wales.
Yes, yes, but thats not in the epicentre of the whole ****ing universe South East, is it? So nobody cares
You're the joke that just keeps on giving aren't you?
As Njee says, it's not a true franchise in the traditional sense, they're unlikely to actually lose out from loss of fares or paying compensation and despite ^ pointless idiocy like that, there are thousands of people who don't really have a choice other than using the train, whoever operates it.
I have no issues with Unions taking up specific fights or cases, but fighting against progress is never going to be winner.
For those that think Arriva in South Wales are bad do you not remember when it BR, complete sh*te.
What do you mean by progress?
I have no issues with Unions taking up specific fights or cases, but fighting against progress is never going to be winner.
I'm not entirely sure it is progress, I'd prefer to have someone other than the driver on the train in an emergency, particularly further out in the sticks where stations are pretty much unmanned these days.
Thanks njee, although as usual that leads to more questions, such as "why is this franchise run differently".
As to the model, my understanding is
- GTR receive £Y to run X trains/year.
- Government receive all the ticket revenue
On that basis, reducing GTR's wage bill would equate to a bigger profit for them.... surely?
You're the joke that just keeps on giving aren't you?
I do try....
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If the rails are clear, could you not improvise and take advantage. No imagination you southerners. Mollycoddled, see....
Unions are using the strike to draw a line in the sand regarding single operator trains, as they see an erosion of their members jobs, that's their function.
Southern trains get paid regardless, so are effectively being used by DfT as patsies to try to break union, they will paint this as union intransigence regardless of what is actuallygoing on behind the scenes, as it's in their interest to have hoards of disgruntled passengers mouthing off.
Could have been resolved, neither side has an interest in seeing that happen . Passengers caught in the middle
- Southern/Thameslink is run on the basis of "we, the government, will pay you to run this franchise, we will keep all profits".As such, there is precisely zero incentive for Southern to back down, compromise, or indeed actually run a single train. However, they cannot be accused of putting profits first!
As the recent thread said, "I was not aware of that"
Makes sense as to why this feels like the government picking a fight then - and why the union is resisting so hard
Me too.
Went through the selection process for a job as a train 'manager' for Virgin a good while ago.
Very well paid, but a commensurate level of responsibility in emergencies.
All of the people who were selected at the end of the second day were ex forces, police or emergency services.
It's not just collecting tickets.
The Rail, Maritime and Transport (RMT) union said on Wednesday its ScotRail members had voted by 10 to one to accept a revised offer from ScotRail Alliance where drivers will open train doors, but conductors will oversee closing them.Southern has threatened to sack its conductors unless the RMT accepts the terms of its eight-point offer by Thursday, which would change the role of conductors to “onboard supervisors”, paying them a £2,000 bonus to accept the change.
Mick Cash, the general secretary of the RMT, said he believed the deal with ScotRail Alliance could be a model for a settlement with Southern.
On Tuesday, the RMT said Southern had rejected an attempt to start talks on the issue at the conciliation service Acas, and the firm was insisting it would only hold talks on implementing the driver-only operated trains policy.
“Our members have backed a deal in a referendum ballot that is a major victory in the fight to stop the compromising of rail safety through the extension of driver-only operation,” Cash said.
I have no issues with Unions taking up specific fights or cases, but fighting against progress is never going to be winner.For those that think Arriva in South Wales are bad do you not remember when it BR, complete sh*te.
nah, cos I'm not old.
Yes, yes, but thats not in the epicentre of the whole ****ing universe South East, is it? So nobody careshahaha too right! Forgot i'll eff off then
Well, no, that just shows total ignorance of what's actually going on, and that's the problem. This isn't just "slightly ropey service lol".
Take Wrexham, town of 61,000 people. ATW station, with an estimated annual entries/exits of 537,962. Current departures shows two trains being 2 minutes late, everything else on time. Doesn't sound like a bad service to me?
Horsham, population of 56,000. Southern station, with an estimated annual entries/exits of 2,841,200. Next train due to depart Thursday morning. About 1/4 of these will be cancelled. Then there are none at all on Friday again.
If theres no trains on Friday, then why not just go to the pub for the afternoon? You sound like you could definitely benefit from an afternoon in the pub. Go mad... call in the bookies and put a few bets on, on the way there. Then maybe a fight outside the kebab house later, on the way home?
Do they have bookies or kebab houses in Horsham? I bet theres loads in Wrexham. I bet the kebab shops do cheesy chips too. Mmmmmmm.... cheesy chips
come for a ride tonight, you can pretend it's The North, sky is certainly grim enough...
I'd prefer to have someone other than the driver on the train in an emergency
Seriously why? What's one person going to do that can't be done by automated systems and the people on the train?