[Closed] So, Scottish Independence then. Not really wanted by Scots.

Maybe they're scared of losing the safety blanket of having England to escape to for 25 years if things aren't working out up there

Not sure how that would work. Eire has been independent for decades. There are still no passport controls at the border and the Irish come and go for work in the UK as they please. If an independent Scotland and the remainer of the UK were both in the EU then there would be no restrictions on the people of either country working in the other.

Not sure how that would work

it was a joke, intended to point out to the poster that there are more things that scots depend on england for than public spending subsidy (such as employment opportunity) and his own post highlighted it perfectly.

but seeing as you brought the subject up, i don't think that you can guarantee english membership of the eu indefinitely or that eu employment regs will always remain the same.

I imagine on a forum like this that most of us that post here are into outdoor pursuits. If I were from England and determined to see the back of Scotland, I may be just a bit less scathing of a country containing the vast bulk of the UK's open countryside, most of the proper mountain biking, great road biking, nearly all of it's winter sports, some of the best water pursuits and the only areas of peaceful wilderness. I understand perhaps this is not everyone here's cup of tea.

err... [b]athgray[/b] why?

It isn't like I can't go skiing and cycling in France despite it no longer being an English possession...

Logic fail... 😕

My personal view. Love Scotland although only lived 6 months there. There is some genuine chippiness both ways England <-> Scotland. I just get a bit tired of the same argument going round and round and round and round and round. I wish the Scots would make their mind up once and for all. Otherwise it will become somewhere that most English people would just like gone... a bit like Northern Ireland

[b]Stoatsbrother[/b]. Are you saying you would rather tuck into a Croque Monsieur and a glass of Chateau Neuf du Pape on a sunny terrace overlooking the piste at Chamonix, over a bacon and black pudding doubler and a can of irn bru in a rain drenched cafe at Glenshee?
Shame on you!
Seriously though, my wife and mother to my two children is from Surrey, my inlaws live there and we have some good times down there. I think that there is more in common than divides us, and I think we can gain more being together. I am a proud Scot, however don't feel the need to be independant to be more Scottish. People down South often don't understand that the government here are considered to be doing a decent'ish job, but I worry that the yes camp are being carried away by the vigour of Alex salmond more than anything else. We will have to wait and see.

Are you saying you would rather tuck into a Croque Monsieur and a glass of Chateau Neuf du Pape on a sunny terrace overlooking the piste at Chamonix, over a [s]bacon and black pudding doubler and a can of irn bru[/s] deep fried Chewit in a rain drenched cafe at Glenshee?

Oh, it's a tough choice....! 😉

I was against it at first. However, the longer I live here and the more I hear from (particularly) Mr Salmond and local people, the more I agree with independance.
I spent many years growing up and living in north west England, where Westminster based politicians and the south east focus that they had was obvious.
Scotland is even more separated - geographically, socially, economically and in thinking and outlook.
I do think there is a strong argument for 'giving it a go' on our own.

(I am shocked I hold this position by the way, I did not a few months ago...)

Yup, supporting independence crept up on me too. One big factor is that we have a government we voted for (unlike Westminster), a government generally agreed to be doing not a bad job (unlike Westminster), and a government that is actually positive about things instead of continually spreading doom (unlike Westminster). But it's not just about the current government in either Holyrood or Westminster, it's the feeling that we should be big enough to look after ourselves, for good or bad.

Oh dear god I hate these threads, they're like car crashes, we know how it's going to go but we're compelled to get involved.

Most Scots couldn't care less about actual independence we like getting on with our lives as they are at the moment (and no doubt will get on with them if the split came). You can pick a source and figure out whether we'll be Norway or Greece but no-one here has the info and those that might have appear to not be able to count to 5.

There is some Anti-English sentiment, but then there is Anti-Scot south of the border. I got slagged for being from Edinburgh last weekend even though I was back in the town i grew up in.

Quit it with the deep fried food references I only know of one place that does deep fried mars bars and that's for the tourists.

To those who want to come and enjoy the outdoors then you're welcome and even the keyboard warriors can bring their iPads but beware the sun it might burn your peely wally skin (certainly has lightened our pale blue colour to almost pink).

If Scotland does get independence how would they feel if the good people of Orkney decided they wanted to go it alone?

I dont think the rugby team will get any better whatever happens 😉

I'm all for independence after finding out that the social security cost for Scotland far outweighs any oil/gas revenue.

Bye.

yossairian -- My wife lived in Scotland for most of her teenage years and was repeatedly beaten up at school for being english,

Without knowing the exact details can I suggest she was not targeted because she was english, she was targeted because she was different. She could have been from Shetland, Stornoway or 'a posh area 20 miles away' and a different accent, not having been part of the 'gang' for the first half of school or any other reason might be enough to "justify" an attack. I am in no way condoning such behaviour - but in my experience there is no deep seated resentment against the English, especially not against English people actually living in Scotland.

Bear in mind that depending on the school any of the following would have been considered acceptable reasons for bullying amongst peers 20+ years ago (and may still be today):

- you don't support the same football team
- you are smarter than the average kids at that school
- you are dumber than the average kids at that school
- you wear a blazer or tie to a school where it is not compulsory
- your school uniform is not as smart as other kids (or 2nd hand)

Neil

If Scotland does get independence how would they feel if the good people of Orkney decided they wanted to go it alone?

I doubt they'd care too much about Orkney, but the Shetlands would be another matter. Obviously this is where we get a famous [s]scotsman's[/s] englishman's view that he supports self-determination of any peoples... 😉

What are we afraid of? I wouldn't trust the folk in Holyrood with my piggy bank, never mind a country.

Let's not forget this little lesson from the past en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_scheme

I'm all for independence after finding out that the social security cost for Scotland far outweighs any oil/gas revenue.

Bye.

Tim Harford looked at this on More or Less a little while ago and that's just not true.

Let's not forget this little lesson from the past en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_scheme

Hardly that relevant is it, really?

I make no judgement on the leanings of this website, just a google
http://www.scotlandoffice.gov.uk/scotlandoffice/16281.html

am in no way condoning such behaviour - but in my experience there is no deep seated resentment against the English, especially not against English people actually living in Scotland.

Totally agree, certainly now. I've lived here for ~10% of my life now and I find it just as friendly as England was to me. Sure there's gentle ribbing about being a foreigner but I've only once or twice had what I'd consider off-kilter comments and they were from people who I'd have expected to pick up on anything different about me and use it anyway (morons) not specifically my origins. Most of the locals I've met in my time here have been fascinated to find out where I'm from and strangely loads of them have lived or worked near where I used to at some point in their lives. Even my slightly dodgy next door neighbours have no issues with us 🙂

it was a joke, intended to point out to the poster that there are more things that scots depend on england for than public spending subsidy (such as employment opportunity) and his own post highlighted it perfectly

I'm sure we'll be able to work in England after Independence just like we can work in any other EU country. Maybe post independance and having to stand on its own feet Scotland might rediscover the enterprise and entreprenurial flair it seems to have lost over the last century then there might be less reason to be an economic migrant.

zokes - Member

BigButSlimmerBloke - Member

yet you can't stop posting?

As it clearly irks you, it seems a worthwhile exercise

As for this

Quit it with the deep fried food references I only know of one place that does deep fried mars bars and that's for the tourists

Let's not forget this little lesson from the past en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_scheme

As it hasn't it's clearly a waste of time, but then if mindlessly posting drivel on a thread you have no interest in or knowledge of just in the vain hope of irritating someone you've never is what passes for entertainment, I guess you're easily pleased, if a bit sad. Still, no point in wasting pity on simpletons, give you a bucket and I'm sure you'll be happy.

You wrote all that just to prove that you're not irked? 🙄

Never experiencd anti English/British sentiment in Scotland - some good natured piss taking and some interesting debates about independance, but nothing serious.

And no, as an Englishman I don't want an independant Scotland - we need all the anti Tory voters we can get.

No, we need to try and make the north of England part of Scotland when they go independent.

No, we need to try and make the north of England part of Scotland when they go independent.

http://www.scotlandoffice.gov.uk/scotlandoffice/16281.html

.....and hello Greece of the North 😆

Why don't you just move?

Definitely thinking about it, but I quite like it here, and I don't think the government in London is ever going to be representative of/give a shit about the north of England, which I think is wrong.

This is the radio show I was on about - http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/player/b013gd28

They seem to conclude that if there is a subsidy to Scotland it's a very small one, and not enough to worry about.

They seem to conclude that if there is a subsidy to Scotland it's a very small one, and not enough to worry about.

So (and I'm not stirring when I say this); if the oil revenues are sufficient to make Scotland break even with the welfare bill, where is the rest of the money going to come from? Is the tax take going to be sufficient to pay for a military, health service, police, education etc?
Excuse my ignorance, but I wasn't aware that there was a lot of industry up there (Whisky, much else?)

I'm not anti scottish independence, so I'm not trolling here.

There is a reasonably independent/sceptical review of the Scottish Governments calculations here: http://fullfact.org/factchecks/scotland_independence_salmond_economy-3239

IIRC, the last figures I checked out indicated that Scotland is running at a net deficit, but that the deficit is less per capita than that currently being run up by the UK.

I think it's fair to say that politicians of ALL parties have now accepted the fact that Scotland can easily afford to be an independent country. However, the the viability of an independent Scotland would obviously depend upon the policies of whatever government was in power. At the moment, the discussion seems to assume that those policies would always be those of the SNP. The forthcoming referendum should be on independence, not on SNP policies. That is what general elections are for.

I'm not anti scottish independence, so I'm not trolling here.

Clearly you have no interest in this thread then, and shouldn't post;-). Basically, you're allowed to discuss this topic if you're for independence. If you're against, you're trolling, and if you don't care apparently you shouldn't post at all 🙄

However, the SNP has previously indicated that North Sea Oil will be the driving force behind Scotland's progression. When John Swinney MSP first made the claim that Scotland could be six richest nation, he explicitly acknowledged that calculations were based on Scotland acquiring its 'geographical share (of) offshore resources'.

He must be intending to cancel welfare then. Either that or send the unemployed south of the border.

And what happens when the oil runs out, which it will, and quite soon...

And what happens when the oil runs out, which it will, and quite soon...

Greece 2012
Italy/Spain 2013
Scotland 2016

😉

Hora, yeah we get it you amongst others predict financial ruin, while others don't. The way Westmister is going 2016 will be UK.

Well we need an English Braveheart in our advertising 😆

wrecker - Member
No offence zokes, but if this the case (and I'm not saying it isn't), then surely this would be good reason for you to support scottish independence?
It'll leave the rest of us far better off certainly in the long run (if true).

Of course, the fact that the rUK will no longer be a nuclear power also sits uneasy with some.

Of course, the fact that the rUK will no longer be a nuclear power also sits uneasy with some.

The issue seems to be that there is nowhere to store the nukes.

At the moment, the discussion seems to assume that those policies would always be those of the SNP. The forthcoming referendum should be on independence, not on SNP policies. That is what general elections are for.

The problem is that the SNP seem to be claiming ownership of the whole process. It was evident on the TV last night on the televised debate where she claimed that if Scotland wanted to get rid of nukes on the clyde the only way it could guarantee it was to vote independence, when in reality that still assumes one of the other parties don't get in - labour for instance don't seem overly bothered by moving them.

The major issue is that no-one has any real figures to throw around as no-one has done it before. What's more, the pro-seperatist folk throw around emotions and "clearly this means this" and no hard evidence, while the opposition point out the flaws and look anti-scotland. It's an insane arrangement and a complete waste of time and effort.

You don't really believe that do you?

It clearly does sit uneasy with some, and there are major questions on where they'd put them without, but there are a few sites that could be used/adopted.

And what happens when the oil runs out, which it will, and quite soon...

No offence zokes, but if this the case (and I'm not saying it isn't), then surely this would be good reason for you to support scottish independence?

Having already said it once, I'll say it again: I don't really care either way. But looking a long way forward: china 1.1 bn; India 1 bn; USA 300m; eu 800 m; Scotland 5 m. In a future global economy suffering from resource limitation I'd be looking to be part of the biggest economy possible. I accept that Scotland wants to remain in the eu, but then apart from a few loony Tories, so too does the rest of the uk. If ultimately the obvious answer to the eus troubles is true federation, I'm puzzled what's to be gained by the upheaval of Scottish independence when somewhere down the line it may well be swallowed whole by the eu.

The issue seems to be that there is nowhere to store the nukes.

I think it wants 'friends with benefits'.

Its a free spirit but the EU gives it money.......

wrecker - Member

Seriously, there will be more than one place in the whole of the UK where the nukes could be stored. It'll cost a few quid but it's perfectly doable if the RUK want to retain the nuclear capability.

We could always use them and kill two birds with one stone 😉

I guess it might still be a bargaining chip

We could rent the bases to the English; and you could have Dalgety bay as your own version of the infamous US Cuban camp. You know,for when your Tory-Presidente-for life starts rounding up the socialists. Actually;spending a bit of time in that part of Fife would make ANYBODY spill the beans.

Having already said it once, I'll say it again: I don't really care either way.

Really?

rounding up the socialists.

I'm puzzled what's to be gained by the upheaval of Scottish independence when somewhere down the line it may well be swallowed whole by the eu.

That would motivate me greatly 😀

I think there may be a federal system and therefore Scotland will be stronger within the EU as an independent nation than as a part of the UK where the Engerlanders dominate.

http://www.scotlandoffice.gov.uk/scotlandoffice/16281.html
/p>

.....and hello Greece of the North

I call bullshit.

Comparing ONE aspect of spending with ONE aspect revenue is misleading at best.

England's spending on welfare and pensions is higher than revenues from the financial service sector. What's you point caller.

Getting official figure on Scotland's tax and spending is always difficult as those who wish to see the status quo maintained like to keep it this way.

England's spending on welfare and pensions is higher than revenues from the finacial service sector. What's you point caller.

The difference is theres a whole developed variety of industry and business south of the border.

Wheres Scotlands banking sector? Who is the biggest employer (per capita) etc etc.

Italy has 1.9 trillion of debt. We have 1trillion.

How much of the trillion will Scotland take over/ownership for when they leave?

Do you really really think Scotland would be given a SugarDaddy cash gift if it chose to leave?

How much of the trillion will Scotland take over/ownership for when they leave?

None; we will take TJ and call it quits.

Wheres Scotlands banking sector?

Good point - the Scots shouldn't have to pay for the bailout of banks which mainly operate outside Scotland.

Is Alex Samon et al partly massaging their ego's/this is driven by their ego's etc?

I don't understand how it would benefit Scotland. Unless there was some sort of 'you pay all our pensions and we'll spend what money we have on vote winning strategies'?

The difference is theres a whole developed variety of industry and business south of the border.

Yeah its all sheep farming and shortbread up here.

Good point - the Scots shouldn't have to pay for the bailout of banks which mainly operate outside Scotland.

grum - Member
Wheres Scotlands banking sector?
Good point - the Scots shouldn't have to pay for the bailout of banks which mainly operate outside Scotland.

Phew, that's a relief. Let's extend that to losses made by other banks outside the UK (eg, Barc and HSBC in the US)?

Unemployment rate in Scotland vs Unemployment rate in England anyone?

Unemplyment rate in Scotland vs Unemployment rate in England anyone?

With the very obvious exception of RBS.

Phew, that's a relief. Let's extend that to losses made by other banks outside the UK (eg, Barc and HSBC in the US)?

I see no-one's listened to the More or Less show I posted earler. 😉

I don't understand how it would benefit Scotland.

They would no longer be part of a country that's totally and utterly in hock to the greed and recklessness of the financial services sector?

I see no-one's listened to the More or Less show I posted earler.

No - just popped into to see how this is going. Two years to go yet, so no need to rush the thread! 😉 You should have advised Iceland grum, they would have benefitted from that advice!