[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8035002.stm ]Rushing to sign up? [/url]
sounds great! Price is "competitive" too. Compared to all of the other national ID card schemes out there er...oh.
Anyway, a government survey says 60% of us want ID cards. Or rather they asked something like "do you want increased protection against criminals, illegal immigrants and terrorists?"
Like we rushed to embrace conjestion charging.
no.
just no.
Just been reading it, and figured there would be something here.
Time for Manchester to stop its fat complacency and get back to its roots of Peterloo, the Repeal of the Corn Laws and Fred Engels... and tell them to f*** off.
And don't even start me on the "if you've done nothing wrong, you've nothing to fear" nonsense....
"ID cards will deliver real benefits to everyone, including increased protection against criminals, illegal immigrants and terrorists," the home secretary said." erm.... really ?
The Torys must rub their hands with glee when this type of thing gets announced.
It's like a sort of referendum in reverse. And as doing nothing is what most people do best, it's likely to be an outstanding success for the no camp.
Anyone over 16 in the city with a UK passport
So thats most of the Labour supporters out.
No. Just like the Manchester congestion tax, I wont be investing into another crackpot scheme.
Including increased protection against criminals
Most of the crime committed (I bet) is by people who dont carry any type/sort of ID on them in the first place to avoid identification.
Its to generate more jobs/industry within the public/private initiatives. FAIL.
No, ta.
Like voting, but seems complaceny will do just as well in this instance. Sadly.
volunteer to pay £30 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆
I'd rather spend £60 on a NUS card at least that gets you 10% off at Harry Halls.
Silly labour twunts.
'competitive' against what? i thought competitive meant that there was more than one choice or have the government forgotten to tell us something, again. Waste of time, waste of money and it won't stop anything.
I'm sure all the terrorists/illegal immigrants/benefit fraudsters are rushing to sign up.
The most hair-brained waste of public money, on an epic scale, yet devised by man. And god knows.... with this bunch of half-wits, thats a hotly contested mantle
So, if we were to take STW as a snapshot of the UK (Hardly scientific, I know!) then it could be said that ID cards are as popular as a fart in a sauna.
I shall be getting a card as soon as possible as I have nothing to hide. Can't wait till they are needed at all times. Need one to vote, use the health service, travel in and out of uk, claim at dss etc. Sooner the better, have in lots of countries no problems. If you get stopped by the bobbies they could tell who you are straight away, if not then it's of to the clink.
as I have nothing to hide
Yet....
What countries have them?
Yet? it all sounds to me as if you guys have things to hide.
What countries have them?
The peoples Republic of Mancunia apparently. Have we replaced the Scottish as *ing guinea pigs now they've got devolution then?
Lets have a *ing revolution!!!!
France has em.
mt. The only way the police can tell if you are who you say you are with an id card is if it is a legal requirement to carry it at all times, if you don't carry it what are they going to do frogmarch you home so you can show it to them, meanwhile someone else gets assaulted, robbed etc and there's no coppers around to help the victim because they are all waiting for people to produce their i.d cards which they forgot to take with them when nipping out to the shop for a pint of milk. Or are they going to fine us for not having them on our person this will take up more court time when people don't pay within the alloted 14 day avoid court action threat's. Fwiw i already have three types of photo i.d a driving license, a digital tachograph card and a uk passport. Why the f$£k do i need another?
France has em
Didn't the Vichy government introduce them in order to identify suitable candidates for 'special treatment'?
Well if it was the law to have em at all time what would the problem be. People remember there money and credit cards for nipping out to the shops so taking your id card cannot be that hard. If you want the bobbies to defend us from crime then we need to play our part by carrying an id card whats the issue? Now give me facts not paranoid ramblings.
They have an ID card in france, but people dont carry them around with them. They use them as passports in the EU and find it odd to have to use a passport to come here.
ID cards are just a step towards a database with everything on so they can use technology to follow your every transaction and move. Your tracked on the net, tracked as you pay for stuff and tracked as you use public transport and walk the streets. Wont stop crime, but they will have a massive trail of electronic evidence to follow you with.
How long before the database its stored on gets left on the train or lost in the post or hacked ?
mt, here's one fact for you - They'll cost a chuffing fortune and achieve very little. In the current economic situation, and with our national debt at shameful levels, I reckon that's enough of a reason!
Next time I fancy committing a crime I will do it with a stolen ID card.
it all sounds to me as if you guys have things to hide.
The Jews in Germany had nothing to "hide". But then the state introduced Jewish as being a "crime" (in essence).
So, for people who one minute weren't actually criminals, then next they found themselves the subject of the Final Solution.
This is an extreme example, I agree, but just because a state appears benevolent, that does not mean it will continue to be so.
If, by your analogy mt, you have nothing to hide, presumably you won't have a problem with a policeman listening to your every phonecall and following you at 10 paces wherever you go.
You may say it is is paranoia, and to an extent it is. But, the suggestion that if I have nothing to hide, then I have nothing to fear is a very dangerous one. This way tyranny lies....
Apologies for rude word.....(Mods, please feel free to remove if need be)
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Not paranoid ramblings. i want the police to defend us from crime but spending £5 billion on a computer system and some bits of plastic with a picture on won't do it. I'd rather they spent the £5 billion putting more police on the street's. Beside's the government's history of setting up I.T systems and databases, running them and not losing the information on them does not make me confident in their abilities to do this. If anything it will just give the fraudsters another way to make money by selling fake id.
As it happens I don't have a problem with the cops listening to what I'm upto as the chances of that are slim because I'm not involved in things that I should not. I also believe that a good reliable card with various identifying data will help the police in there work, could even have your dna a on there to rule you out of anything. that way there job would be easier and if you had no card then it's off to the clink to discuss it. Same rule for all whoever you are whatever colour background religeon. Due to the present state of security of this country, high levels of crime then we need to make some sacrifies to help the state bring about safe democratic society for all. I can se them being used to claom benefits even buy stuff when required, what about using them as a punisment for low level crime instead of a tag. Card taken you can't go out without risk of arrest and of to prison.
Do they have the technology to store trollvine biometric data yet?
"could even have your dna on there"
ew. Or someone else's...
cost and database security is
sues aside
im not so sure all this big brother paranoia isnt a load of bollox
if you aint doing anything illegal whats the problem??
the recent G20 protests and the death of that tomlinson fellow have shown that cctv and the surveilence society is a good thing even for the left wing rbs hating anarchists among us
although saying that im sure that all police will be cleared of all wrongdoing anyway just like with jc demenezes whatever the evidence says
what about using them as a punisment for low level crime instead of a tag. Card taken you can't go out without risk of arrest and of to prison.
So how would you work that then?
Checkpoints that everyone passing though would need to show their papers at?
Otherwise how would they know someone was out without papers?
Do they have the technology to store trollvine biometric data yet?
Indeed. I have already realised and stopped the feeding. 😉
It all looks wonderful on paper.
i.m.o. it'll never work, so a big NO from me.
I am reading this tome at present:
[url= http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41WAOTizI2L._SS500_.jp g" target="_blank">
I would recommend it to anyone, as it is interesting (if not necessarily easy to swallow or necessarily correct). The most intriguing thing about it is the way Goldberg picks apart what we mean by "fascist", and how there is a long history of basically benevolent government being, in his terms, clearly fascist. It is very US-based, which makes it quite a hard slog if, like me, you are not as up on 20th century US political history as one perhaps should be. The sections about FDR and the New Deal are partricualrly interesting in the current economic climate.
"Checkpoints that everyone passing though would need to show their papers at?"
It was ok for northern ireland so why not here?
"Otherwise how would they know someone was out without papers?"
Got to have cops that do there job.............................sh1t thats blown it.
Ok was just trying to get ourmaninthenorth on "And don't even start me on the "if you've done nothing wrong, you've nothing to fear" nonsense...." to give some more perspective on his comments.
To be quite honest I'm horrified that we have a so called goverment who seem to have spent the best part of the last 8(?) years taking away our rights, no one seems to be able to put up a coherent argument against them. If this had been the tories doing what labour is up to now all the bleeding heart lefties would be out in forces but it's there party that is turning the country one step closure each day to a facist totalitarian state. I supose that all left wingers have a predisposition to be dictators after all they semm to know what better for us and our money. It's interesting how many times the words democratic and socialist turn up in the name totalitarian countries. Supose we could start with Stalin, go via Hitler, look at the various Eastern block satelites, Mr Mugabe's Zimbabwe then perhaps over to that gobby git in Venezuela. Most of these countries require you to have some sort of ID card.
Must fly now as I'm being watched. Have seen the film Brazil.
izakimak - Membermt. The only way the police can tell if you are who you say you are with an id card is if it is a legal requirement to carry it at all times
izakimak - I believe there was a tiny little line in the terrorism act introduced a couple of years ago that said the police could arrest you on the spot if you could not prove who you were. So 'technically' they could go through the motions of finding out who you were now, without ID cards.
The Labore govt still flogging this deah horse still astounds me.
breatheeasy - what did you remind us of that for, it's just starting to confirm that Tony and Gordon have really done for us. Facist state here we come.
"If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear"
Well, I fear having to prove I have nothing to hide. nt, imagine you're out somewhere, maybe had a couple of drinks, and it's lateish. You get stopped and asked to show your ID. Looking in your pocket, you realise with mounting horror your wallet is missing. With your credit, ATM and ID card in. The police march you off 'for a chat', and meanwhile someone else, quite probably with criminal intent, is wandering around with everything that proves who you are. Your ID card will probably be sold to another criminal, possibly with terrorist links, who will be able to hack all the biometric data, including your DNA, because anything that can be encoded can be hacked, especially if it's come through a government IT system.
And if you don't believe that hypothetical set of circumstances could happen, then you, sir, are an even bigger clot than you sound already. I believe you are actually a paid government spokesman trying to drum up support for the introduction of ID cards, and I challenge you to prove otherwise.
Now sod off.
Imagine a crime is committed at your place of work - imagine that everyones DNA is on a database. That wont solve the crime, it will just mean there are now hundreds of suspects than need scientific forensic tests to prove they are innocent. DNA testing is not foolproof or perfect and is open to abuse and mistake. Its not like it looks on the telly.
None of these initatives solve crimes, good policing does. Spend money on coppers who dont have to fill in forms. Id vote for that.
We should not have to prove anything to the gov. They need to prove they are here for our benefit.
but count you could then go to the police and say look, u had me banged up at the time when my card was being used for various crim activities
Ah, mt, good man.
You make interesting points about two things (1) the way that we, as a nation, have roilled over and taken it from the various Labour governments of the last 12 years and (2) as BD is evidently alluding to, the role of "nanny" statism to impose itself ever more highly on our personal lives (and with it our liberties).
(1) I think is symptomatic of a people who were too easily distracted by the shiny baubles of a growing economy, and an assumption that New Labour would necessarily be "better" for the nation than the outgoing Conservatives.
(2) You have a point. Hugo Chavez is certainly no saint; quite the opposite in my view. His ideals are not all inclusive, but very divisive, and rely on a redress of influence away from the (previously more educated) middle classes. It's an interesting experiment, but I can't see how he can continue as he does while the price of oil remains so low....
The issue with the left is often twofold: (1) an assumption that "we" know what's good for the people and (2) a doctrinal linkage to the dictatorship of the proletariat. This was most starkly seen in the Communist states (an oxymoron of ever there was one) of the 20th Century. But the issue remains: the state, in trying to create an allegedly more equal society, creates massive inequality, not within society, but as between the state and society. Hence my fear that this way tyranny lies.
Therefore, I maintain my view: the state needs not to become any more closely involved in me and my affairs. I do genuinely fear it. Not in an hysterical way, but in a real sense that my "identity - who I am - surely cannot belong to anyone but me, and the state does not have the right to cross that threshold. Sure, ID cards are not all the way across that line, but they are one step closer and I don't like it.