Just seems to be a poor decision to shoot badgers, it is an emotive subject but it isn't going to work and who wants "marksmen" roaming the woods at night.
I am not a fan of Brian May either.
"marksmen" roaming the woods at night.
They already do. You live in a town I take it?
It's just another job around the farm. Nothing emotive about it.
They already do
where do you live???
Sounds like fun..
Where do i sign up?
where do you live???
Deepest, darkest Wales (and I'm referring to people shooting at night, not shooting badgers).
No I don't live in a town, in the 10 years I worked in agriculture never saw people roaming at night with rifles, popped a 12 bore at the occasional fox and on one occasion a couple of dogs.
The mass killing of badgers will be emotive.
[i]It's just another job around the farm. Nothing emotive about it. [/i]
that comment's made me sad.
if you treat choosing to kill anything en masse with the same amount of emotion as you do closing a gate someone left open then there's a problem, imo.
you may see it as necessary to do and therefore carry out the shooting but it's not something that should be done casually.
Anyway, re: the science - even the supporters seem to be a bit unclear as to what happens once a local population is killed. I guess we'll just wait and see.
My real issue is that havign started no-one will look at any future evidence of its effectiveness, they'll just try and keep their farms clear of badgers altogether, TB carrying or not.
It's just another job around the farm. Nothing emotive about it.
bit different from shooting the odd rabbit or fox though.
No one knows how many badgers there are, total wipeout is illegal, partial wipeout won't work, Animal movement controls despite the claims aren't great, go to a livestock market and see the nice germ mixing that goes on.
Remove a population all that happens is a migration to fill the void.
Throw into the mix that Glos County Council have voted to ban it on their land...
Sop to the NFU and that is about it, nothing to do with controlling badgers really.
you may see it as necessary to do and therefore carry out the shooting but it's not something that should be done casually.
I think that most people take no pleasure in the task might be a better way of putting it.
No I don't live in a town, in the 10 years I worked in agriculture never saw people roaming at night with rifles,
REALLY?
I knew folks who went lamping all the time..
that comment's made me sad.if you treat choosing to kill anything en masse with the same amount of emotion as you do closing a gate someone left open then there's a problem, imo.
What a daft thing to say! It may come as a surprise to you, but farms actually [i]breed[/i] real live animals, [i]en masse[/i], purely so they can kill them, dismantle them and sell them in little plastic shrink-wrapped trays.
As a humourous aside, my local Wildlife Trust (with which I'm involved) organised a demonstration with Brian May. They asked everyone attending to wear black and white as a show of support...
I had to ask if the dress code was wise under the circumstance!
No I don't live in a town, in the 10 years I worked in agriculture never saw people roaming at night with rifles, popped a 12 bore at the occasional fox and on one occasion a couple of dogs.
I guess I'm not differentiating between shotguns and rifles. Most rifles are suppressed so you're just not aware of them. Shooting foxes at night is pretty routine near me and that's typically with shotguns.
Either way, people wandering about with guns at night is normal.
What a daft thing to say! It may come as a surprise to you, but farms actually breed real live animals, en masse, purely so they can kill them, dismantle them and sell them in little plastic shrink-wrapped trays.
an obvious but good point!
As sad as it is in reality I think it's the right thing to do. TB is an awful thing to have in your herd.
Whether it'll rid TB is questionable.
Straw poll time - badgers or politicians?
I'd rather keep the badgers.
Straw poll time - badgers or politicians?
[img] http://forum-img.pinside.com/pinball/forum/?bb_attachments=846943&bbat=96752&inline [/img]
I wonder idly if Brian May is opposed to the badger culling out of fear that they'll shoot him and his missus out of mistaken identity.
I'm sure that swivel eyed frothing at the mouth tory thing will start to infect cattle too, best to strike now before the infestation begins...
[i]What a daft thing to say! It may come as a surprise to you, but farms actually breed real live animals, en masse, purely so they can kill them, dismantle them and sell them in little plastic shrink-wrapped trays.[/i]
I think I knew that.
And it's something that I have thought about quite a lot. I do eat meat, but I expect that when I do eat it the animals have been kept in good conditions and treated with respect during their lives.
I also think the comment about casual killing applies equally to food animals as wild ones really?
Don't not do it, but think before you do and don't give them the same level of concern as you would a fence.
What odd statements this thread has generated.
People go shooting animals FOR FUN all the time you know. Even people who live in towns do this. Where I grew up in the country is was very common to see people wandering about with guns and even now when Ilive in a town I see people with rifles going hunting.
Killing animals is a normal part of owning a farm. I can't believe anyone who has worked on or a near a farm isn't familiar with the process. Vermin damage crops, kill 'em. Birds steal seed, kill 'em. Badgers...errm well I'm not sure what the problem with Badgers is but kill 'em. And obviously livestock's whole purpose is to be killed and eaten.
shooting badgers to the point of extinction (otherwise there's no point) is not
...the right thing to do...
finding a better solution is.
And it's something that I have thought about quite a lot. I do eat meat, but I expect that when I do eat it the animals have been kept in good conditions and treated with respect during their lives.
I'm sure beef cattle really value being treated with 'respect'! 😉
KILL EVERYTHING
People go shooting animals FOR FUN all the time you know. Even people who live in towns do this. Where I grew up in the country is was very common to see people wandering about with guns and even now when Ilive in a town I see people with rifles going hunting.
Certainly true. There are two groups though, those that seek permission to shoot for fun, and those that own farms and shoot because they have to. I don't doubt some of the latter enjoy it, but the ones I know don't.
No idea what the split is.
[i]I'm sure beef cattle really value being treated with 'respect'! [/i]
nothing tastes worse than a disgruntled Hereford 😉
I guess it's partly selfish - if the farmer cares about how their cattle are fed and the conditions they live in I'll get better quality meat at the end of the process.
I come from the fact that've have two herds, one has 36 cattle the other 29, both have just come through calfing and I'd hate to see any of them infected with TB.
We run an Organic Beef farm (2) it would mean all our cattle would need to be destroyed. It's taken 7 years to get the accreditation, it would take another 7 to clear up this mess if it hit.
There is there minor detail of deer, wild boar etc. If you kill all the badgers, do you then kill every other possible host?
nothing tastes worse than a disgruntled Hereford
Oh, I think you'll find Aberdeen Angus that has been 'dissed' tastes appalling. And there's nowt worse than disenfranchised Limousin!
I'll agree with you about feed quality, but happiness making better meat? That's just marketing bunkum designed to lure those "heart's-not-in-it" vegetarians that like the smell of frying bacon back into the fold as soon as they grow out of their silly fussy eating stage. 😉
Frankie say Arm The Badgers - Cull The Coalition!
I've heard it does with pork, albeit from a pork farmer, who takes the pigs out for a play and a quick game, then promptly... err... well you get the idea. I live in the Dales where it seems to be less of a problem, and we don't have a lot of farmers with guns in the woods at night, never mind professional marksmen. Though the local deerstalker would likely fall into that category.
End of the day its a pilot scheme, its complicated, it will only reduce the problem not solve it so a better solution is still in everyone's interest.
it will only reduce the problem not solve it so a better solution is still in everyone's interest.
thing is the evidence, suggests it might not reduce the problem but actually make things worse. If the trial was definitely going to reduce the problem, ie the evidence that killing badgers worked and all your doing is finding the best method, that would be one thing. But previous trials suggest that unless you kill a certain percentage (of an unknown number) then the problem gets worse.
Are badgers transported many tens of miles, or more, across the nation from farm to farm?
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The trial is definitely a good idea. I'm not for the unnecessary culling of badgers, if it wont help. But the trouble is there doesn't seem to be any clear evidence one way or the other.
Once the trial is done with, if there is proof that TB in the area is reduced then a more nationwide cull has to go ahead. The TB testing and movement laws are incredibly strict and can cripple a farm, even one without TB.
Had a TB test on our herd last week and we had one inconclusive (having never had a reactor, ever). Now we have to wait 60 days for another test before we can sell anything, and we had 7 bulls booked into a sale today. As we are a small farm it's cashflow issues like this that can cause a real headache, all for the sake of a cow that certainly doesn't actually have TB.
No I don't live in a town, in the 10 years I worked in agriculture never saw people roaming at night with rifles
Were you tucked up in bed by 7pm then?
Lamping is part of pest control/food for the table on most farms, a lot goes on in the springtime with lambing and the fox cubs being kicked out then another killing spree in late summer after harvest and its possible to drive on the stubble.
There is evidence that good welfare (I don't know if that means happiness, I don't know if livestock feels happiness) affect meat quality - or rather that stress adversely affects it (I think it is to do with the stress hormones given off). My wife has a masters in the subject (collecting blood samples at the point of slaughter isnt my idea of fun) and has spent a fair amount of time working for an abattoir / meat company on the back of it. It's one of the reasons they try to minimise the mixing of groups of pigs during transport and slaughter.
Twas on R4 The Life Scientific the other week - some statistician or other. The reasons behind the cull are flawed as the stats are being misinterpreted.
That said, badgers are asshats.
Beavers are worse...
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/beaver-kills-fisherman-in-belarus-29307209.html
If the science was more in favour, I'd be more in favour tbh. The meta I saw suggested that badgers are certainly a reservoir for bovine TB but not a very convincing standalone vector- so badgers alone probably don't give cattle tb on a large scale but moving clean cattle into an area that previously had infected cattle brings the badgers into play as an intermediary. For badgers to spread tb into totally new areas requires migration on a fairly large scale, which they don't do much unless they either lose a habitat or, ironically, because their social grouping gets messed up (for example) by culling.
Either way, few people seem to disagree that the main vector of bovine tb is cattle to cattle not badger to cattle.
The trial is definitely a good idea. I'm not for the unnecessary culling of badgers, if it wont help. But the trouble is there doesn't seem to be any clear evidence one way or the other.
very clear evidence that culling can help but that it will also make the problem worse. This cull as framed is a pointless waste of money.
Nobody else thing that "Shooting Badgers" would be a great name for a band?
If I was milking yes I could be tucked up in bed at 7, what's your point caller 😀
Lamping for rabbits or foxes is a bit different to hired marksmen going all out to kill the majority of badgers in a designated area.
Only know a few boys who kept rifles, one was a licensed culler and would go places like Whipsnade and shoot some of their herds, his trip to shoot Chinese water deer was memorable 😯 he would also go to Scotland regularly after deer.
Just seems to me that the evidence for a cull is a bit vague. Anyway quality shaving kit will come down in price 😉
Nobody else thing that "Shooting Badgers" would be a great name for a band?
Not as good as "Stabbing Beavers"...
"12gauge Badger Cull" works well as a band name
So how's it going to work if it goes nationwide? Will armed badger shooters be allowed to roam at will on private property?
