I used to get a lift home with my boss at least once a week (as they stayed near me) and I often ended up in the pub or going back to theirs for a few drinks or even dinner.
He never called me "babe" though 🙁
I suspect the same actions with a female boss may have caused issues.
So who drove most on yur last holiday journey, Junkyard? You or your female companion (I seem to remember you having one, apologises if this doesn't apply). Most couples are insured to drive each others' cars. Here any driver can drive any insured car with the owners permission.
Back when I lived in the UK I don't remember any wife, girlfriend or female colleague ever driving unless the male was too drunk, ill or exhausted to steer.
Have you ever offered a male colleague a shoulder massage, TJ? And was the offer accepted?
Every picture of you and your good lady on a tandem has you up front. Who fixed the last puncture?
I have and it was.Have you ever offered a male colleague a shoulder massage, TJ? And was the offer accepted?
.... and there was me thinking you were just being polite.... 😀Edit: plus if it's the door to the pub, it means they'll be first at the bar and have to get the first round in.
Back when I lived in the UK I don't remember any wife, girlfriend or female colleague ever driving unless the male was too drunk, ill or exhausted to steer.
We quite often do long car journeys as the various grandparents are all several hours away. I drive some, mrs drives some, sometimes we split the journey.
She always drove at the start of our relationship as I didn't learn till after we were married.
Have you ever offered a male colleague a shoulder massage, TJ? And was the offer accepted?
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Gender is irrelevant. It's just good manners
Well said sir and how very apt
Ed, the same thought about bike positions must have been going through many minds 😉
Edukator - Reformed TrollHave you ever offered a male colleague a shoulder massage, TJ? And was the offer accepted?
Yes and yes. done it loads for folk
she is not strong enough to balance it with me on the back and the crossbar is too high for her to straddle it comfortably. I'd actually be quite happy for her to captain it a bit more.Every picture of you and your good lady on a tandem has you up front.
Me. She is a klutz with mechanical things. I also do all the cooking. she does all the dealing with officaldom and financials. I'd be quite happy to hand over all my money and get pocket money but she won't do that as she says I need to take responsibility for some things. We both have our strengths and weaknesses and a like a good partnership complement each otherWho fixed the last puncture?
we split it but really badly she drove 150 miles there and me the last 50 and we did the reverse on the way back - not through any sort of planning that is just what happened.So who drove most on yur last holiday journey, Junkyard? You or your female companion
In general we both tend to drive our own car unless long trips where we split the driving.FWIW I think your point is probably true for more couples* than it false its just that I/we are one of the false one.
* all the ones I know the answer for the man does most of the driving.
The desire for a dominant alpha male and the behaviour usually associated with it. It's really not hard to grasp
An alpha male is not the same thing as a sexual predator or a rapist. Suggesting there is a need to reconcile disgust at Weinstein with the desire for a "dominant partner" is just trying to normalise abuse.
We both have our strengths and weaknesses and a like a good partnership complement each other
This is where the whole sexism lark started. And roles were often defined by strength, speed and dexterity with the female jobs being considered socially inferior (unless you go back to the stone age when women wore the trowsers or whatever women wore back then). The social order was turned over when women were found to be better at more business critical things than men. Except it wqasn't turned over because men still get paid more for doing the same job and women still get discrimated against for promotion (I know there are exceptions to prove the rule).
Our household is unusual in that Madame makes the money but totally normal in that I fix the punctures unless she's out on the own - and then she flags down the first male cyclist to pass. We blame our sexist roles on our parents and the school system, and every book, film, TV show, record, work place, club, social activity, sport... we've ever come into contact with.
I've seen one tandem couple with the lady up front, he was nearly blind. Tandems are built bigger up front, why? Logically you'd put the bigger person behind so they could get a better view - the big strong bloke goes on the back on race tandems for two blokes. Recumbent tandem trikes are so easy to ride it doesn't matter who is up front - but it's invariably the male.
Mrs TJ can fix punctures and does if she is out on the bike on her own. Its just I am quicker and have stronger hands to get the tyres on.
We really do live as a partnership of equals
Edit - our strengths and weaknesses are not the typical sex roles tho.
I bet she is a good listener 😉
An alpha male is not the same thing as a sexual predator or a rapist. Suggesting there is a need to reconcile disgust at Weinstein with the desire for a "dominant partner" is just trying to normalise abuse.
Well the person who posted that statement originally almost certainly wasn't conflating those two things and neither was I; I was just trying to explain what is pretty obvious to most people which is that social dominance is something that women tend to look for in a partner and men tend to use as a way of exerting power in these types of problematic situations such as we are witnessing now. Maybe Weinstein was a poor example because he's been accused of rape, but there is some research to suggest a relationship between men with high social status and their propensity to commit these acts.
It's also interesting to note that not one of these socially dominant men in positions of power are single; they're all married or have long terms partners. That's interesting don't you think?
Like what?The social order was turned over when women were found to be better at more business critical things than men.
tjagain - Member
I don't hold doors open for women. Working in a female dominated world I would never get thru a door if I did.
Sorry, but that is just bloody impolite.
I was brought up in a working class household where it was drummed into me to always say please and thank you, walk on the outside nearest the road if walking with a woman, and always, [i]always[/i] hold doors open for people if arriving at a door first, irrespective of gender; to do otherwise is boorish and rude behaviour.
Having worked in an environment where roughly 80% of my work colleagues were female, I’d have got a good talking to if I [i]didn’t[/i] hold doors open for people, failure to do so being seen as highly inconsiderate to others.
Jeezus. 🙄
Except it wqasn't turned over because men still get paid more for doing the same job
Sorry but this is just not factually true. Like for like there is little difference and where one exists, it's actually the woman that gets paid more.
Yes, there is a difference between all men and all women but that's a different issue.
Cite pleaseSorry but this is just not factually true.
I bet there is one survey that shows what you say but we all know men get paid more both as an average and within sectors
One only needs to look at the BBC wages as the most recent example.
Geetee - unfortunately it is true.
Slight correction, the gap is well within the margin of error at 1.6%. Some age demongraphics, those between 20 and 30, do have women earning more than men but this is a general figure not a like for like figure. The disparity emerges after about 30 usually when children come along.
Research debunking the idea that men are paid more for the same work is here:
[url= https://www.aesc.org/insights/thought-leadership/diversity-inclusion/korn-ferry-hay-group-real-gap-fixing-gender-pay ]Korn Ferry research paper[/url]
BBC research was not like for like and not remotely representative.
The earnings gap exists, just not as is suggested.
When we compare pay for men and women—first by job level; then by job level and company; and finally by job level, company, and function—the[b] “gap” gets smaller and smaller until it all but disappears[/b]; in other words, a man and a woman doing the same job, in the same function and company,[b] get paid almost exactly the same[/b].
My bold
so even that shows it exists
You really are clutching at straw here as your own link refutes your position
Geetee - sorry dude you are speaking utter nonsense on this one and you really should know it
9% according to Le Monde on the bassis of same job, same hours.
In this report, we answer three questions:
1. What’s the reality of the pay gap, and
why should we try to close it?
2. What caused this pay disparity, and why does it still exist?
3. How can organizations, line managers, and
women level the playing field?
full report is here an there is no explanation [ though I skimmed to be fair] of their methodology they use for manipulating the raw data to make the comaprisons that reduce the % rate.
1.6% isn't enough of a gap to prove anything; it's within the margin of error.
The earning disparity is far more significant that a superficial 'let's pay women less for the same job' trope. It reflects more complex and nuanced issues that do need to be talked about and resolved. I'm not saying otherwise.
But the data on a like for like, or more accurately within the exact same role, just does not show there to be a problem.
Perhaps you were thinking of like work rather than the same role?
For years we’ve read bold headlines about the gender pay gap, reporting that around the world men are paid an average of 20% more than women. Our global research confirms this gap but also shows that when compared “like for like”, the gender pay gap reduces to 1.6%.Put simply a man and a woman doing the same job in the same function and company, get paid almost exactly the same. But one thing remains true: as a demographic group, women get paid less than men. It’s time for a new approach. It’s time to see things differently.
So you cherry pick one paper GT, I can cherry pick another:
ONS figures here clearly show the following:
22-29 0.8
30-39 1.5
40-49 13.4
This is by age and the decimal figure is the ratio between men and women's earnings for full time employees across all industries in 2016.
The gap only emerges in the age range of 40-49. It is insignificant before that and the year before (2015) 22-29 year old women were earning more than men.
As I said, in the exact same role there is no gap and between 20 and 40, irrespective of industry, there is no gap.
The gap emerges after 40. That should tell us something. Again these are ONS figures.
This was the same data for 2015:
22-29 -0.8
30-39 0.6
40-49 12.4
Again same pattern. Indeed, if you go back a few more years, the pattern that men earn less than women in their early careers is even more marked:
22-29 -1.8 -2.4 -3.0 -0.7
30-39 2.7 2.5 0.7 1.0
40-49 16.1 16.9 15.4 15.7
So how do you explain that?
If you want to look at the ONS data, it's right here:
[url= https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/adhocs/006411annualsurveyofhoursandearningsasheestimatesofthegenderpaygapformediangrosshourlyearningsexcludingovertimebyageukapril2015to2016 ]ONS data for gender pay gap[/url]
So how do you explain that?
Sex discrimination against women. There is no other plausible answer. You have just proven what you deny, GT, which ever way you look at your number the total differnce come out at over 4% and I'm sure the difference over 49 is even greater thus giving an overal differenc of 9%, not 1.6%
How did this get to pay discrimination against women ?
There isn't even a tenuous link between this and the title of the thread ..
How did this get to pay discrimination against women ?
There isn't even a tenuous link between this and the title of the thread ..
Look at who is posting. Thread titles don’t matter...
KCR, there is a strong link between alpha males and rape.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-human-beast/201105/alpha-males-and-sexual-abuse-women
Is this what they say about their research or what you say- they seem pretty confident it is there nd it did not prove what you claimed it proved. No offence but you are desperately clutching at straw saying things you think will make you sound insightful when really its just compete and utter pish..6% isn't enough of a gap to prove anything; it's within the margin of error.
Your views on sex and gender are at odds with reality, your own data you cite TWICE and are as someone said earlier today nuts. I will feed your delusion no more as your are way past he rational realm. I wish you the best of luck in getting closure but lying to yourself is not going to be helpful IMHO
Considering how easy statistical significance is to deduce, I'm not sure GeeTee would make that up.
To be honest, he has a point in that the ONS data when broken down provides a more interesting nuanced picture than the 9 percent figure does.
I bet Adam Sandler's getting paid a shitload.
It seems like people are trying to describe an algorythm for how to behave around members of the opposite sex
Judgement
noun
the ability to make considered decisions or come to sensible conclusions.
Use it.
Also - in defence of the OPs manager, the fact that she didn't raise it with you directly might indicate that she didn't give it too much credence, or that maybe the lady in question specifically told her that she didn't want it taken any further?
A customer of mine once slagged me off to my boss, made all sorts of outrageous accusations (nothing related to sexual harrassment obvs - I'm not a perv). I knew they'd had a conversation, so I asked for feedback. My boss refused to share the feedback because she said she knew it wasn't true, and hearing it would just upset/annoy me. Chatting to my wife - a similar thing has happened to her in the past as well.
I guess only you will know if that could plausibly be the case here
Weak manager. She ( the manager) did tell me about it a year later as an aside in another conversation. She told me about it as if it had happened
To be honest, he has a point in that the ONS data when broken down provides a more interesting nuanced picture than the 9 percent figure does.
Exactly, and if we want to ensure that there is equality of opportunity above the age of 40 we need to understand the dynamic that drives that pattern. It’s not simply about all em-lovers paying women less than men in like for like rolls. Why aren’t more women taking higher paid jobs later in their career; is that about discrimination and if so why does it only happen at the age of 40 and not before; is it about choice; if it is, why do women make that choice and is it genuinely done freely or is there an element of social coercion involved?
These are important questions we need to ask and it’s almost certainly not as simple as jus directt discrimination, indirect and social pressures will also play a part.
As a husband who has done precisely the this I’m a strong advocate for an equal number of men taking a backseat in their career development to help balance the demands of child rearing in order that their partners can pursue their own careers. For some reason though that doesn’t happen above 40, at least not in significant numbers.
batfink: how does using judgement help?
As discussed, lots of people have [i]very[/i] different boundaries.
Applying judgement I wouldn't think twice about touching an arm in reassurance as TJ describes. To me that is a basic humane response, to others it is sexual harassment worthy of report to a manager.
The solution, that some have suggested, of being completely cold to all female workmates, avoiding socialising with them, possibly even refusing to shake hands with them just doesn't feel right to me.
