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What if we give you the Falklands; that way you can have your own island, miles form England, and not have to be bothered by us Sassenachs any more?
Fair deal?
I wonder, how many people are currently unemployed per capita in Scotland, and how many are in England?
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-15754266 ]The Scottish unemployment rate is now 8%, below the UK average of 8.3%.[/url]
Talking to a chap i was on holiday with, an Englishman who worked in the oil industry and has lived in Scotland for 20 yrs or so, he reckoned the Scots would bottle it at the last minute, that it was all posturing and that most would back away from full independence at the polls.
8% unemployed eh?
How would that be affected by Independence? Would it increase or decrease? Hard to say i suppose but it must be in the minds or ordinary Scots.
he reckoned the Scots would bottle it at the last minute, that it was all posturing and that most would back away from full independence at the polls.
Current opinion polls show that two-thirds of Scots don't want full independence - so I'm not sure how that is posturing or why showing that majority at a referendum would be "bottling it"?
Most Scots are currently unconvinced. But... I think most seem to agree that the SNP have done a reasonably good job so far, so they are starting to listen to what wee Alex has to say.
Only if it's actually going to happen, which is how likely?
Not sure about likely, but it's a very real possibility, i'd say independence lite/devo max is more likely, and at the moment is probably what I'd vote for.
But here's a few things.
Blue Peter Badge winners never get into scottish stuff for free.
On the [b]UK [/b] news: "If you don't want to know the score in the Premiership, Championship, league one, league two, league three, conference, regional pub league look away now.....meanwhile in Scotland Celtic won, Rangers lost, and who's even heard of the oher teams anyway."
Everything you hear see and read about Scotland in London based media and even on here talks about the place like it's a colonial outpost with untamed natives.
My heart says independance, my head says devolution.
What if we give you the Falklands; that way you can have your own island, miles form England, and not have to be bothered by us Sassenachs any more?Fair deal?
a whip round to send you there without internet access would seem much more reasonable IMHO 😉
I understood him to mean that 'Scots as an entity' would bottle the challenge presented by full Independence. I am left wondering how long Salmond has left with his Independence policy, if after all these years the SNP can still not convince Scots of the benefits of Independence then how long will his star shine? I would have thought that with the recession and a Tory/LimpDem coalition in Westminster slashing and burning their way through the public sector cinditions would be ideal for Independence.
No send [i]you[/i] there without internets then we won't have to put up with your crap typing. 😡
Now Elf's threatening to deport us?
[i]"Why don't you back where you came from?"[/i] is that it Elf?
*shakes head*
That snickers was smashing.
Well, anyway - what I think is that we should, erm... Oh, wait - pork pie and mustard. Yum...
Twa neebor wifes sat i’ the sun,
A twynin at their rocks,
An they an airgument began,
An a’ the plea was...
Or how about; we give you full independence, but only revenue from oil proportionate to your population compared to that of the whole UK, so, 9% or so. Or swap you some gas?
Would youse be happy with that?
Cos yer not getting all the oil, you do know that don't you? 😉
I'm having some Cheese and Onion Crisps. 😐
I'd just let the SNP get on with it.
Jose Manuel Barroso has already made it abundantly clear that entry into the EU will be conditional on membership of the Euro. Proposing an independence referendum on the grounds that it better meets the interests of the Scottish people has been timed to perfection.
There was little reluctance by the SNP to accept a £20bn bailout coordinated by the Treasury for one of its own national banks in 2008. Quite ironic seeing as RBS can trace its history to the Scottish Banking Company, a company formed by the shareholders of the Darien expedition following its bail out by England under the Act of Union in 1707 (article 14) How the bailout of RBS and HBOS would have worked in an independent Scotland is pretty unclear.
What is astonishing is how little debate this is generating politically in England among any of the major parties, given he constitutional and practical problems that would ensue for all neighbouring countries should a vote for independence be secured. Salmond has the floor to himself on this topic at the moment.
There was little reluctance by the SNP to accept a £20bn bailout coordinated by the Treasury for one of its own national banks in 2008.
Mmm.. that "Treasury" money was partly from Scottish taxpayers too tho, no?
As was the money for Northern Rock...
Cos yer not getting all the oil, you do know that don't you?
The old Scotland vs England fixture could be on the cards again 🙂
kerplunk - if Scotland is independent the UK no longer exists in the same form, so if Scotland would have to renegotiate terms with the EU so would the rump UK.
Can you really imagine that the EU would not want Scotland? with most of the EUs oil, much of its potential renewables, much of its fishing grounds?
Scotland has plenty to offer the EU
I am not reading 4 pages of the same old bolloocks so I will merely add the following bullet points:
• the scots should be free to choose the destiny of their nation, whatever that may be.
• the oil deposits in the north sea are dwindling and will offer significantly lower returns on new finds that present new challenges in extraction. The fossil fuel finance ship has sailed. Period.
• England would be richer per head without Scotland.
• if I was Scottish I would want to be 100% independent.
England would be richer per head without Scotland
Dunno why as Scotland is a net contributor to the UK economy
Mmm.. that "Treasury" money was partly from Scottish taxpayers too tho, no?As was the money for Northern Rock...
Not the point. SNP wants full independence and fiscal autonomy. How would an independent Scotland have generated the revenue to fund a £20bn bailout on it's own? Germany cannot generate sufficient interest in its bonds at auction so how would an independent Scotland have raised the revenue to fund the bailout? Last time I checked both HBOS and RBS were banks whose headquarters were based in Edinburgh therefore I assume the SNP would consider them Scottish and not English companies.
kerplunk - if Scotland is independent the UK no longer exists in the same form, so if Scotland would have to renegotiate terms with the EU so would the rump UK
dunno ??
Scotland is a net contributor to the UK economy
Pends what figures you use I spose...
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*could lurk and read these debates all day*
indeed it does elf.
Jota - and the scottish government has different advice - and can you explain why when the UK no longer exists that England and Wales would remain members and Scotland would not?
Also - if you want an independent Scotland this remains irrelevant.
Right. I am on a train with nothing else to do, so I HAVE read ATS.
Maybe it comes from my love of history but i love the story of the creation of England, how waves of settlers and warriors took a land from the natives
The natives? Us Welsh and Irish then AKA Britons.
So if london is as important as you say, all in the uk should have had a vote on the london Mayor.
The Mayor only deals with stuff that only affects London afaik.
Anyway. Federal UK FTW. You know I'm right, I always am.
Alex was going to get Scotland rich by copying places like Ireland, Iceland, etc. what's his plan B?
and can you explain why when the UK no longer exists that England and Wales would remain members and Scotland would not?
There was a UK before Scotland was in it, wasn't there? However before the UK there was just England of which Wales was a part, I believe.
kerplunk - if Scotland is independent the UK no longer exists in the same form, so if Scotland would have to renegotiate terms with the EU so would the rump UK.Can you really imagine that the EU would not want Scotland? with most of the EUs oil, much of its potential renewables, much of its fishing grounds?
A lot of that is supposition.
The EU is going to be far more dependent on gas/oil piped from Russia and via Turkey (assuming it eventually joins which is an inevitability in the long term). Do you honestly think that Germany and France are going 'negotiate' and give preferential treatment to a small country in a union that already features 27 members. Ireland is constantly held up as an example of a model that works but (a) Ireland joined almost 40 years ago in 1973 and at that time was the poorest member of the EEC (as was then) (b) the EEC consisted of just 9 members and (c) The Cold War still influenced military and economic activity. As a result of those factors (and others) Ireland received substantial investment and underwent a period of significant economic development and change. Contrast that with now (a) Scotland would be one of the smallest but certainly not the poorest member of the EU (b) the EU now contains 27 members and (c) the Cold War is finished but the EU's focus is relentlessly eastwards.
Fishing and maritime waters are essentially an irrelevance. How would Scotland police and defend them if it did not want other members of the EU fishing there? Oil is more relevant and it is very doubtful that the [English] Treasury would be prepared to walk away given the investment in oil fields funded in the main by English taxpayers. You could end up with an arrangement where Scotland gets to 'own' the fields but they are leased to the English in perpetuity for effectively a peppercorn rent.
Err. no.molgrips - Member
There was a UK before Scotland was in it, wasn't there?
Scotland and England (incorporating Wales) signed a treaty of union. That became Great Britain. When Ireland came along, it was the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.
So - if the treaty was dissolved, there would be no GB and hence no UK of GB&NI
So, same bloody thing Onion try to look clever said nothing after all. 😐
Can you really imagine that the EU would not want Scotland? with most of the EUs oil
Hmm, you appear to be suggesting that the oil belongs to Scotland, rather than the UK as a whole.
What if oil were taken completely out of the equation?
Would you still want independence?
(Notice how they're conveniently ignoring this rather difficult question, cos far from it being about 'culture and identity', it's about MONEY)
That's the truth, Ruth. It's always about money.
Greenland became an EU member as part of Denmark but then broke from them but remained an EU member
When Ireland came along
Was Ireland not conquered by Edward I in 12 something?
yip.What if oil were taken completely out of the equation?Would you still want independence?
and the scottish government has different advice
How do you know that TJ? or are you guessing?
apparently it's [url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/8753776/SNP-urged-to-publish-secret-legal-advice-on-separate-Scotland-EU-membership.html ]contrary to the public interest[/url] to tell you what their advice was
yip.
How would you survive economically?
Formal union with Ireland came in 1800
Formal union with Ireland came in 1800
surely the only valid Union dates from 1925 as it'll of superseded anything previously?
Oh wait that was Scotland that Edward I conquered as well as Wales.. which is where Mel Gibson comes in. I remember now.
The Falklands were mentioned before as a joke but actually the whole reason that the UK wants to keep them so much is that they may hold the access to the potentially huge untapped oil reserves.
With those reserves who needs Scottish reserves?
Although having said that does the Falklands belong to England or the UK? If it's the UK does Wales, Scotland and NI all get a share if we break up?
No idea. But I doubt we'll sink into the north sea due to lack of oil. I'm very much a vote for lets go for it and figure it out as we go.How would you survive economically?
No idea.
You've not thought this independence thing through really, have you? 😆
surely the only valid Union dates from 1925 as it'll of superseded anything previously?
No it didn't. The Irish Civil War did that following partition. The last vestiges of partition were repealed only relatively recently in the south in 2007 and in the North in 1998.
(Notice how they're conveniently ignoring this rather difficult question, cos far from it being about 'culture and identity', it's about MONEY)
I think you're confusing the arguments here Elf.
I talked about Scottish national pride, unique culture etc - but just as a commentary, not as a [i]reason[/i] for independence. As I said, I'm currently against full independence as are most Scots.
No it didn't.
I was taking it from [url= http://www.firmmagazine.com/features/926/Independence%3A_the_legal_questions.html ]this[/url]
[i][b] Scots often note the Union of the Crowns in 1707 as the date Scotland’s independent status ended. But that is not the union that currently exists. The Treaty of Union was amended to absorb all Ireland, by the Act of Union in 1800. This new UK was amended again in 1925 when Ireland was partitioned in 1925. The potential complications of this new, post-1707 UK in relation to Scottish secession are unknown.[/i][/b]
All the ins and outs, nah why bother, not as if I'm going to be running things. But I'm a great believer in necessity being the mother of all invention.. So like I say I doubt we'll sink.Elfinsafety - Member
No idea.
You've not thought this independence thing through really, have you?