[Closed] Scottish independence - hmm, a thought

Exactly my point Duckman! There's a hell of a presumption going on here.

He is, after all, as an English as a rolled-up-trousered Freemasons handshake between a chief constable and an over-the-drink-drive-limit local councilor. In Surrey 🙂

So if I have a Grandparents from England Scotland Wales and Yorkshire. Can I vote on Scotish seperatism.

Freedom for Yorkshire, may the truly tight rule there own desiny. HOW MUCH! (yorkshire war cry).

The South will rise again...

may the truly tight rule their own destiny.

That's what Salmond wants, too.

😈

For something "they" have apparently been wanting for the best part of 300 years, it all does seem a bit Micky McMouse...

....still no decision on who can vote, when to vote, what voting system to use and what the vote will mean - a cynic might think it was all about political posturing with no real substance, but I'm sure it's not.

a cynic might think it was all about political posturing with no real substance, but I'm sure it's not.

Of course not. If that was the case, AS would have chosen a date for the referendum that would, in his opinion, somehow stir up some sort of nationalistic feelings in Scotland.

But of course, he didn't. Did he?

Citizenship - the people of Scotland are those who live here and those with strong ties to the country.

The resident, tax paying, voting population of Scotland plus Sean Connery

Z11 - more than a grain of truth in your comments.

The whole thing strikes me as a rather sad waste of money/time. Scotland is a wonderful country and I have benefitted from a Scottish education which was superior to the one I would have received south of the wall. All we have now is lots of political mischief making that will be irrelevant to the grander scheme of things. As we have seen over the past 48 hours it will provide immense entertainment to counter the rest of reality TV, with gross hypocrisy, inconsistencies, self-serving, manipulation on all sides. But will it improve the lives of the Scots or the English/Irish/N Irish. Very doubtful. But when has that stopped politicians?

I wish they would do something about the educational apartheid though. Shame that my kids will not be able to benefit from a Scottish education.

Connery has no doubt got his cheque book ready for the campaign funds. Hey, he might even come back and live in Scotland?

The population of Scotland plus Sean Connery

Don't forget Mel

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Hey, he might even come back and live in Scotland?

Yip - I'd imagine that'll happen on the same day Paul McCartney moves back to 'the Greatest City in the World' - Liverpool

I think I can manage to forget Mel

For something "they" have apparently been wanting for the best part of 300 years, it all does seem a bit Micky McMouse...

300 years? no such thing.- Scottish nationalism is a romantic movement originated by a bunch of idle toffs in the 1920's.

but I have strong ties to Scotland, I love a bottle of Glengoyne, think Haggis is the food of the gods, rate Black Isle as one of the worlds best beer brewers, absolutley love the pipes and am learning to play and constantly feel like an oppressed minority. Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease can I vote.

The ignorance being quoted on here is really rather amusing. for example

CaptainFlashheart - Member

AS would have chosen a date for the referendum that would, in his opinion, somehow stir up some sort of nationalistic feelings in Scotland.

Lets see something to back this up. Its a unionist canard that the anniversary of the battle of bannockburn will be used. No one from the nationalists has ever said that and for a variety of reasons it would not be a good date.

Its so funny to see the rabid right on here attempting to justify not allowing the self determination of a people when the same folk defended the right of the Falkland islanders to self determination.

Humbug hypocrisy and cant.

Has anybody done the "Scotsman in you" joke ?

(From NZ are ye ? Do you have any Scotsman in ye ? No. Do ye want some ?)

As heard about 10 times a night when I worked in a pub by Redford Barracks and the A&SH were in.

Is anything worn under the kilt?

Nae, it's all in perfect working order!

Jezza. Serious question for you: When you've been ethnically cleansed by the newly independent locals, high on a tide of unpleasant nationalism stoked up for political purposes, which part of your native homeland do you fancy living in?

My dad is Scottish and my mum is English, so can I have a passport for each please? Potentially useful for tax purposes.

TJ - funny you bring up the Falklands again - you've still not answered the question from that thread on whether the Shetland Islanders would get the right to self determination, if they did not want to be part of an independent Scotland.

Regardless, I can't see anyone on here saying Scotland does not have a right to self determination - in fact we're all for it, and the Government of the United Kingdom seems to think that you should be given the opportunity sooner rather than later - it seems to be Alec Salmond saying that the Scottish people only have a right to self determination when he says so, and on his conditions, when the law says thats not his responsibility.

Its so funny to see the rabid right on here attempting to justify not allowing the self determination of a people when the same folk defended the right of the Falkland islanders to self determination.

It is indeed TJ, but the whole issue is humbug, hypocrisy and ....(????)

A pro-Unionist pushes for the vote and a pro-independence hides behind an advisory mandate/partial vote. Its all so bizarre. Good job the economy is in such fine fettle that our time is being spent wisely!!

Can't wait for the vote on becoming the 'independent republic of Yorkshire'

...and then Elie? A nation state if ever there was one?

Can't wait for the vote on becoming the 'independent republic of Yorkshire'

Didn't Yorkshire vote no to devolution?

Alex for PM of the UK I say. Why does he limit himself, he could show a few politicians (and us) what it means stand up for your country. I'm not a fan of seperatism/independance as it's a throw back to another age but Salmond is pretty good at his job and would better at being PM than any number of idiots that have/want the job (past and present).

z-11 why would the Shetlands be looking to cede from Scotland? Would it be because the Norwegians had control of the Islands from 850-1400? By your thinking there should also be votes in Northumbria, Mercia, East Anglia, Essex, Kent, Sussex and Wessex. Oh; and Cornwall and the Isle of Man. They all fulfil the criteria you seem to use to suggest the Shetlands are not part of Scotland.

Poor you,must be hard to see the last vestiges of Your country's colonial might dissapear into the sunset. Scotland, Wales NI...All in the next 40 years.

I know what you're saying mt. He's a clever bugger. And Shrewd. He's been running rings around everyone. Scotland have got what a lot of us want. A realistic alternative to the tired 2 party system, now there just purely to represent their vested interest friends in business

BUT... if you had a survey question 'which human being looks the most annoyingly smug, self-satisfied and generally pleased with themselves?

Then I'm afraid its between him and Piers Morgan

BUT... if you had a survey question 'which human being looks the most annoyingly smug, self-satisfied and generally pleased with themselves?

Then I'm afraid its between him and Piers Morgan

🙂

I'd look as smug as Salmond if I was up against such political numties (all parties included).

firestarter - Member
Can't wait for the vote on becoming the 'independent republic of Yorkshire'

Republic? Ian McMillan "Bard of Barnsley" for King as long as he gives us a poem a day. We could pay him in the Yorkshire beer of his choice. I'd prefer anything from The Nook (if you know it you know what I mean).

Duckman

why would the Shetlands be looking to cede from Scotland? Would it be because the Norwegians had control of the Islands from 850-1400?

Why on earth should Scotland have anything to do with the Shetlands? is it because they want the Shetlanders oil wealth?

What claim does Scotland have to that?

Why can't they have the right to self determination? If you look at the historical legal position, they have no legal ties with Scotland, by rights they should be (and were) an independent crown dependency, like the Channel Islands, and for that matter, yes, the Isle of Man.

You can't argue that Scotland has a right to self determination, and at the same time also argue that the Shetlands don't have their own right to do so - its a fundemental hypocrisy in the argument put forward by the Scottish Nationalists (TJ included)

If the Shetlanders asked for their own independence, and (rightfully) took the oil with them, where would Alec Salmonds spending plans be?

Citizenship - the people of Scotland are those who live here and those with strong ties to the country.

bloody hell, i'm scottish.

never really thought about it before.

Its so funny to see the rabid right on here attempting to justify not allowing the self determination of a people when the same folk defended the right of the Falkland islanders to self determination.

Also funny to see that you were madly arguing that the Falklanders shouldn't have self determination rights, with the only vaguely logical argument for this basis being their proximity to Argentina.

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No zokes - I am perfectly prepared for the Falklands to have self determination. I never argued anything different.

But are you prepared for the Shetlanders to have [u]their own[/u] right to self determination TJ?

pass.

Derek - I hope you work in some kind of creative industry, otherwise your talents are wasted.

[edit - damn, doesn't work on a new page!]

No zokes - I am perfectly prepared for the Falklands to have self determination. I never argued anything different.

In that case, my apologies - I thought you were arguing that the islands belonged to Argentina, and that the 3000 Falklanders were just an occupying colonial force.

Assuming that the there is only one referendum and it is the one that Uncle Alex wants to hold. [s]He[/s] (oops sorry), [s]the SNP[/s] (sorry again), the Scottish Government are

- going to chose who can vote;
- going to chose the question(s) on the ballot paper;
- going to run the election (after all he is unbiased);
- going to count the votes; and
- finally going to determine what the Scottish Government should do.

Uncle Dave meanwhile wants to

- use the existing electorate in Scotland
- have a single question about Independence (Yes/No)
- allow an independent organisation to run the election
- allow an independent organisation to count the votes;
- agree BEFORE the vote that Yes means out of the UK and on your own

So who seems reasonable now!

I think what we need here is a referendum on whether we should have a referendum. I'll form an arms-length consultancy sub-group immediately, to report in 2015. Would anybody like to be Sustainability Manager ??

Zokes, no, I think you must have misunderstood TJ when he said, and I quote:

La malvinas son argentinas

Which is clearly an argument in favout of the Falklanders right to self determination.

😆

The Falklands and Scotland are totally different.

In one case the UK invaded and has run the place ever since. We did try at one point to give it back to Argentina, but the stupid buggers misunderstood and invaded the Islands. There is no way any UK government is ever going to be able to give the Islands to Argentina without the support of the Islanders.

In the other case the Scottish Parliament choose to join in and form Great Britain with England and Wales. This is not to say that Scotland can't choose to leave the UK - but the consequences of doing this need to be understood by the Scottish people before they vote. Otherwise they'll be a vote, Salmond will negotiate with Westminster, he won't get his way and spend all his time whinging that Westminster is being unreasonable!

Zullu you like repeating quesions...any chance you can answer DD's one on your racist experiences? FFS was this not why [ I assume] you were [both]sent to the nuaghty step by Mark ? Some men you just cant teach

Because this thread has degenerated into the usual abuse and needless argument it's now closed.
This useless level of abusive argument is ugly and puts off many from joining in life on this forum. The negative use of the forum rule will be brought into heavy use unless certain so called 'big hitters' can't curb their nasty urges to pick online fights and attempt to bully other users. Time to grow up and start contributing something other than your keyboard warrior egos to this community.

From Mr Grumpy himself ...do you need a longer lesson?

Also funny to see that you were madly arguing that the Falklanders shouldn't have self determination rights, with the only vaguely logical argument for this basis being their proximity to Argentina.

Note to self see above comment from Mark and walk away from thread

Ps

+1 for naming all the "broons" a show it is decided

sadmadalan

actually the SNP preferrred process goes

1)indicative / consultative referendum

2) negotiation to set out the exact terms

3)Binding referendum

The SNP proposals also involve oversight from a multiparty group

Cameron wants to go straight to a binding referendum before the details are known and quickly so there is no time for proper debate.

so - informed decision making with considered debate or not?

Would anybody like to be Sustainability Manager ??

[img] [/img]

Junky - TJ brought up the Falklands on this thread, he took us there!

FWIW on the other issue, I asked DD why he assumed I hadn't, and for the record I went out with an asian girl for six months, and (we) saw racism from both sides, OK?

I'm not trying to needlessly argue, however its still fair to ask "why the double standards"