Scotland Indyref 2

I want to be Scottish, I want to be British, I want to be European. That's why I voted No in the the Independence Referendum.
It now appears that I can only have two out of three.
The game has changed.
I am still Scottish. If offered the choice between being British and being European I will reconsider my options. In a year's time I will have had time to consider all the arguments rationally. Today I'm thinking with my heart and would vote for Independence in Europe.

This quite closely echoes the way I feel just now, however I don't wish the timescale to be too hasty. I would like to see how post brexit UK and EU pan out, as both have now started a process that will have big changes.

I personally would wait until close to the next general election 3-4 years.

km79 - Member
Here we go again. Fresh from their crusade against brown people, fellow Europeans trying to make a better life for themselves and those that pray a bit funny, the bigots attention can now return to the Scottish people. It's nearly been a whole 2 years, let's get that xenophobia for your other neighbors back on display.

This says it all 🙂

[img] ?oh=9daea4e24bfed766d9203a8cc47963fb&oe=57F145DA[/img]

Suspect there's less appetite than you might think for another indyref even within the SNP - it's an expensive and exhausting business.

I'll be supporting it financially. I don't see why the Scottish should suffer just because England and Wales have chosen to turn the UK into a backwater failed state, all in the name of [s]racism[/s] concern about immigration.

If athgray is considering independence, we must be in with a chance! 😆

If England and Wales secede from the United Kingdom that would work.

Good Idea - We can leave Scotland with all the debt.

Just spotted this.

Could this be the bargaining chip NI and Scotland use for leaving the UK?

[img] ?oh=3a8596716ced58ad6603ca57b963a633&oe=57C1C717[/img]

ninfan - Member
If England and Wales secede from the United Kingdom that would work.
Good Idea - We can leave Scotland with all the debt.

good luck with that.

Meanwhile an English friend sent me this

[url= http://www.southportvisiter.co.uk/news/southport-west-lancs/sefton-west-lancashire-sign-join-9259718 ]Poll for North of England to join Scotland[/url]

I thought it was a joke but 22,000 have voted and it's at 70%. Can't see it really happening though.

nobeer, CONSIDERING being the operative word.I passionately wanted to be in both, and argued my belief that similar consensus and was felt on most issues across the UK. I appear to have been wrong. My early feelings are that so many people have let the UK and Europe down badly, leaving me feeling a bit stupid. If the vote went the way it did but Scotlands vote was closer, then I may have said "our views on the EU were not too disimilar, however almost 2/3rds of Scots voting for the EU is quite overwhelming.

We are lucky in a way in Scotland to have a political outlet for this route. I feel sorry for the younger generation in England and Wales who also resoundingly voted for the EU, as they have largly grown up in a world with looser borders and greater movement of people, and do not jave to hanker after the 50's when Britain was so much better.

A couple of elderly gentlemen on the news yesterday summed it up. One was a teary eyed Southerner in his 80's with few years left just glad to get his country back before he dies. The other was from the North of England who was glad as the French and Germans hate us anyway.

ninfan - Member

If England and Wales secede from the United Kingdom that would work.

Good Idea - We can leave Scotland with all the debt.

That's kind of an old link, epi - kind of ironic now if you look at the referendum map as it's the North of England who dragged us out - I'm fairly sure if the border was set there you'd have voted Leave and South of that line might have even voted Remain.

quite a staggering turnaround from your previous position

athgray, you should be aware, you aren't going to get the 3/4 years you want to see how it all plays out, if this goes ahead the scottish question needs to be sorted before the leave date. Leaving the EU then re-entering isn't really an option.

I feel sorry for the younger generation in England and Wales who also resoundingly voted for the EU, as they have largly grown up in a world with looser borders and greater movement of people, and do not jave to hanker after the 50's when Britain was so much better.

I feel sorry for them also. I can only imagine it must be so alien and bewildering. However if there is something good that comes out of this perhaps it will be the realisation that opportunities to vote should not be wasted. I read earlier that if the under 25s turned out and voted in the same numbers as the over 60s then the overall result would have been remain.

Hard lesson, but I hope for their own futures it has been learnt.

Meanwhile an English friend sent me this

Poll for North of England to join Scotland

I thought it was a joke but 22,000 have voted and it's at 70%. Can't see it really happening though.

London declaring independence and/or join Scotland... Now that's would work. 🙂

seosamh.
Why not? It surely can't be beyond the wit of the EU to deal with Brexit and then look at Scotland re-entry shortly after.

I just can't see why we have to decide in an indyref2 before Brexit happens.

I was reading tonight that Angela Merkl is worried about a domino effect where other nations may look to leave.

For stability of scotland it's a bit crazy you're talking a 5-6 years of pissing about.

[quote=athgray ]I just can't see why we have to decide in an indyref2 before Brexit happens.

You don't - it's just that joseph is hoping you can continue our current membership so as to maintain more favourable terms. It's a bit tail wagging the dog though to expect everything to be put on hold so that can happen.

I was reading tonight that Angela Merkl is worried about a domino effect where other nations may look to leave.

I'm sure all European leaders are - it's just that Merkel has a different attitude towards dealing with it - one which I think is likely to work rather better than the bullying others seem to think is required.

aracer - Member
athgray » I just can't see why we have to decide in an indyref2 before Brexit happens.
You don't - it's just that joseph is hoping you can continue our current membership so as to maintain more favourable terms. It's a bit tail wagging the dog though to expect everything to be put on hold so that can happen.

merkel was the most chilled about it today tbh.

She says she wishes it to be dealt with cordially, but I did read she was worried about effects elsewhere. I can't remember where I read it.

aye, that's been mooted as a concern for a while. tbh I can only really see it happpening if the equivalents of ukip won an election. I doubt after the british example too many will be keen to call a referendum.. france is probably the biggest one to look out for there.

I have a close friend from Holland. I know there is a fair bit of dissatisfaction there.

[quote=athgray ]I have a close friend from Holland. I know there is a fair bit of dissatisfaction there.

Wilders is leading the polls there, and says he'll hold a referendum if he wins.

not saying there isn't, but it's a different thing to win a general election over a whole raft of issues than to win a single issue referendum. It's not a simple as uk out and the cards fall.

If it is going to collapse though, it'll happen sooner rather than later imo, so no need for a protracted waiting period.

aracer - Member
athgray » I have a close friend from Holland. I know there is a fair bit of dissatisfaction there.
Wilders is leading the polls there, and says he'll hold a referendum if he wins.

Dear old Nicola still can't answer basic questions on Marr re the basics of an independent Scotland - groundhog day!!!

Dear old Nicola still can't answer basic questions on Marr re the basics of an independent Scotland - groundhog day!!!

True

#posttruthpolitics

Was there ever a #truthpolitics?

There was a time that suspension of disbelief worked. Not anymore.

teamhurtmore - Member
Dear old Nicola still can't answer basic questions on Marr re the basics of an independent Scotland - groundhog day!!!

So what?

It's not as if it's going to much different from the challenges made by other former colonies when they got independence, and none of them have come crawling back.

There's plenty of resources to meet whatever challenges that do pop up, the most important being people.

Out of everyone involved it is only Nicola Sturgeon that seems to be actually doing anything about this, unless you include quitting or hiding or blaming someone else.

Can't embed it for some reason.

teamhurtmore - Member
Dear old Nicola still can't answer basic questions on Marr re the basics of an independent Scotland - groundhog day!!!

I think the deceitful one has a nice ring to it... 😉

Let's hear your argument for remaining in the uk? We're listening.....

@YoKaiser: Change the https to http:

I should be surprised that we haven't heard anything from the Prime Minister since his resignation speech, nor anything from the Chancellor since the result. I should also be surprised that we have had so much back tracking from Vote Leave and little else in way of ideas or leadership. Also I should be surprised that the BBC seem to have teamed up with the Blairites and have made the news all about the demise of the Labour Party.

WTF is going on?

Btw regarding the cards falling, listening to some reactions of europeans on the news, the theme seems to be that the uk has just made itself the guinea pig, so they are all watching with interest. but that'll be over a much longer period, they'll want to see where the uk is in 10 years time. So I'd like to amend my previous thought on it happening quickly, I doubt it will. There will be no queue to join, imo. Least not for a decade.

The thing also it there's not a fixed queue for EU membership - we don't join the list behind Turkey or whatever. Scotland is already in the EU, we already meet the criteria - so really it's more a matter of semantics whether we take over the UK's membership or are fast-tracked into a new membership.

Fundamentally, if Scotland came to the EU fresh, would they refuse us membership? Of course not.

Fundamentally, if Scotland came to the EU fresh, would they refuse us membership? Of course not.

Well, maybe not if you ignore the various separatist movements around Europe - the Catalans, Basques and Gallicians in Spain are the ones I'm most familiar with, but the French also have their share and I'm other countries too.

Maybe Scotland on its own would be welcomed, but national governments will also weigh up "pour encoureger les autres" when deciding whether to admit or veto another country's entry.

turning up fresh would be more of an issue than staying imo. we need to sort it out before england and wales leave. Our goal is not to leave at all. Whether that is as part of the uk or independent is a matter of the opinion of others.

The majority would obviously prefer uk + eu, how knows where that is possible.

Though you would imagine, england and wales leaving and scotland wanting to stay isn't really a scenario that looks likely in other countries, ie spain, so that precedent has also fundamentally changed.

Spain isn't a problem:

https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2016/06/25/an-argument-as-rank-and-rotten-as-a-two-year-old-fish/

Spain isn't a problem

That's a lovely opinion piece which completely ignores just how much the central parties hate the Catalans, and makes a frankly pathetic argument that Spanish fishing quotas in one small province would make a huge difference to national politics.

Serious question for any pro Indy Scots. If your pro leaving the UK for greater local control etc (which by the way I can understand, if not agree with) then why do you want to then join the EU and give control back to Brussels? I'd understand going fully Indy but struggle with the next bit.

Like I said, honest question just interested in the feeling up there.

I don't view the EU as having control. There are universal laws in the EU etc, I'm all for that. There's plenty of control at a national level to run our own affairs.