You're missing an inconvenient fact, a legaly binding referendum, with all the checks and balances that come with that, would have been acceptable, but this was a travesty as many said at the time (49%), and were put down as 'project fear'.
You reap what you sow.
But that seems not to suit your agenda, whatever that may be.
You can add whatever facts you want. If you want to point out that the referendum wasn't legally binding then I don't see the problem.
I will carry on pointing out that the EU referendum was fully backed by Labour and the LibDems, only the SNP were opposed to it.
You are Nigel Farage AICMFP
You need a reality check
Good luck getting one of those from a Lexiteer.
You might as well ask Farage how he thinks it’s all going
Or Corbyn, who was just as vehemently anti-EU
On this issue, there’s nowt between them.
Go far enough in either direction and you end up on meeting in the middle on planet penis
It’s all worked out great, hasn’t it?
You are Nigel Farage & AICMFP
Oh this is fun...... because I point out that 544 MPs voted in favour of the EU referendum?!?
Oh this is fun…… because I point out that 544 MPs voted in favour of the EU referendum?!?
A legally binding one, yes, not a wet finger in the wind. Another inconvenient fact.
You seem to be very full on when it comes to whipping up whatever nonsence your philosopy is, and very fast to try to destroy other ideas, so I have to ask, who do you vote for? you don't need to answer, it's a rhetorical question.
Anyway do you want comment on the seat prediction if a general election was held right now, which I linked earlier on the previous page, or do you want to just uniquely focus on a referendum which occurred 6 years ago?
… and has been entirely responsible for the six year cluster-**** that has occurred since
Brexit… delivered to you by morons on both the right and the left. Truly two cheeks of the same arse
Honestly I think the next GE will be won on what the tabloids tell them to do.
At the moment, they are all hating Harry and Meghan.
Honestly I think the next GE will be won on what the tabloids tell them to do.
So you feel fairly confident that the Tories will win?
So you feel fairly confident that the Tories will win?
It wouldn't supprise me.
You’re missing an inconvenient fact, a legaly binding referendum, with all the checks and balances that come with that, would have been acceptable
This isn't a fact, there are no constitutional checks and balances on referendums If as with much the constitution you rely on precedent then most referedums have been advisory. This is for the simple reason for it not to be advisory the result has to automatically bring into force an Act of Parliament. Only the 1979 devolution referendums were done on this basis, but were not of course passed. The 1997 devolution referendums were done on the same basis as the EU referendum.
Brexit… delivered to you by morons on both the right and the left. Truly two cheeks of the same arse
Yup 🙁
Now we have the NHS , the rail service and the postal service on it's knees. And a Tory government. For the record, I support the strikes.
Or Corbyn, who was just as vehemently anti-EU
Key - he was hugely pro state investment which would have gone a long way to fixing all the economic turmoil that were happening pre and post.
So yeah pointless centrist positions yield right-wing continuation, and Brexit.
Brexit… delivered to you by morons on both the right and the left. Truly two cheeks of the same arse
What utter nonsense.
The left is redistributive, exactly what the bone-headed centrists claim to want but when it's on the cusp they go all Change UK LTD.
You know if you're ever going to push back against a right-wing tyrannical and economically inept government how on earth do you expect it to happen from a right-wing position?
This isn’t a fact, there are no constitutional checks and balances on referendums
Exactafucinmundo.
I had to Put my nan into hospital recenty, the first repsonder was a fireman, due to staff shortages, the paramedics arrrived after, these people are true heroes, and I don't really understand how they can be so professional, given the pressure they are under, but they are.
The more we sqeeze the system the worse it's going to get, we are all human, and paramedics/ambulance staff are super human if you ask me.
Exactafucinmundo.
So you've been talking bollocks for years, it has been pretty obvious but it is good of you to admit it.
Farage likes to take the credit, but he was frankly incidental once the referendum had been put in motion
He delivered the breaking point. I’m not just referring to his billboard message, but that it swung the polls toward Leave. He was absolutely key in getting the vote over that 50% threshold.
Honestly I think the next GE will be won on what the tabloids tell them to do.
Agreed, if the papers all pile in behind Sunak (or his successor) and start warning old folk that our borders are leaking under pressure from a “flood” of people, they can swing this election away from Labour. Throw in something vilifying unions and benefits claimants and Conservatives could be holding onto seats all over England and Wales.
Conservatives will hold onto loads of seats no matter what the media gets up to. I would put a LOT of money of my area remaining Conservative. They will also lose a lot of seats too at it has finally reached the point (after 14 years) when people are truly fed up with them and won't be completely fooled by the media at that point.
He delivered the breaking point. I’m not just referring to his billboard message, but that it swung the polls toward Leave.
They all worked well together as they had the advantage he could promise one thing whereas another of the brexiteer elite could promise the absolute opposite.
They will also lose a lot of seats too at it has finally reached the point (after 14 years) when people are truly fed up with them and won’t be completely fooled by the media at that point.
They are already defecting but even further right. People want their utopian Brexit unicorn & if the Cons can't provide them, it's not because it's a unobtainable, it's because they aren't trying hard enough. Reform/Reclaim will be happy to continue selling snake oil and hoover people up.
They are already defecting but even further right. People want their utopian Brexit unicorn & if the Cons can’t provide them, it’s not because it’s a unobtainable, it’s because they aren’t trying hard enough. Reform/Reclaim will be happy to continue selling snake oil and hoover people up.
I'd love to be able to trust my initial reaction to that, which is - there is no way anyone would be that stupid.
But then...
They are already defecating but even further right. People want their utopian Brexit unicorn & if the Cons can’t provide them, it’s not because it’s a unobtainable, it’s because they aren’t trying hard enough. Reform/Reclaim will be happy to continue selling snake oil and hoover people up whilst showering shit all over the UK.
Fixed that for you.
Reform/Reclaim will be happy to continue selling snake oil and hoover people up.
The reboots havent really worked though. They come across as mostly a grift for cash nowadays for farage. I suspect he is missing his mep pay.
Its odd how invisible Sunak is currently. He spent the last few years doing a lot of pr work to get attention and then when he gets the job he just phones it in.
I guess he is just another who wanted the job for just having the job rather than any clear idea what to do with it.
Its odd how invisible Sunak is currently.
Not really. Did you expect anything else?
He's exactly the same as Johnson in that respect. He regarded being PM as his entitlement. Now he's got his title, and the status it affords him, thats it. Mission accomplished. He's 'won'.
Just like when Johnson took over and soon exposed the fact that he was nothing more than a third rate journalist with no abilities (beyond self-promotion) and certainly no answers. Same with Sunak. He's a banker. Thats it. He may have done well at Goldman Sachs, but thats your lot.
He's invisible because at the moment whats needed is the capability to negotiate and compromise, but he's absolutely no ability to do that. 'Masters of the Universe' don't have to do that kind of thing.
He's also done what his two predecessors did and appointed a cabinet of talentless nodding dogs, there purely for their loyalty and enthusiasm for Brexit, so they've got no answers either.
Does it look like self-styled 'Brexit Hard man' Steve Barclay has any capacity to resolve the present dispute? Of course not. You'd be better off getting Piers Morgan to negotiate with the unions.
I dread to think where this is all going, because the government isn't even engaged, and has shown that it has no intention of doing so. So its only going to get worse. Far far worse. I could see us getting to February and pretty much everyone being out on strike and the country completely paralysed.
I think they fear this too, but they haven't a clue what to do about it, so they hide behind their attack dogs in the press and try and blame everyone else but themselves, as the brexiteers do with everything
https://twitter.com/guardiannews/status/1605838361284993024?t=u--tmpdzbjIPjHfCLW5buA&s=19
You know when Sunak realises the only way is down - I can see him jumping.
He's not got the intellect or grit to deal with this. The invisible PM.
Buckle-up you can't run an economy like ours successfully without big government cash. And there's none of that in sight, despite full control of finances!
Neither party has a clue how to fix this. Terrified by the establishment class so we all now suffer, because no one has a plan to fix things.
Staring them in the face - at least part 1) Get some big pay rises in the public sector - generate some spending. They then spend and onwards. (Come on Starmer you spineless wonder - make a play of support )
Without money (the one thing the government/BoE controls) we're pretty doomed.
Everything comes down to political will.
1) Get some big pay rises in the public sector
Amazing how neither party has grasped this simple fact. Pretty much every problem we have in our economy and society is driven from the fact that for tens of millions of people, work simply doesn't pay. There's a huge disincentive to work in professions such as teaching, care work, nursing, social work, emergency services etc which hold our society together. Who's going to do a four year paramedic degree and get themselves thousands in debt to earn 30k a year when they can get close to that working in the local supermarket? And yet all we hear from the likes of Starmer is that 'there is no money'. It's utter bullshit.
Amazing how neither party has grasped this simple fact. Pretty much every problem we have in our economy and society is driven from the fact that for tens of millions of people, work simply doesn’t pay.
Totally.
You've got to fix this but the lords of the free-market (rigged market) don't want to operate it how it should.
We have huge demand in the NHS and trains etc that can't be fulfilled so in theory the market should now pay more for the Labour.
WTF doesn't it work this way around?
Simple supply and demand.
Because it's rigged to hell. Years of pushing back against better wages have now bought us to the precipice.
Amazing how neither party has grasped this simple fact.
Well it would indeed be amazing if Oxford/Harvard educated senior politicians from the two main UK parties couldn't grasp this "simple" fact! 😃
To paraphrase Harold Macmillan ......"priorities, dear boy, priorities"
Well it would indeed be amazing if Oxford/Harvard educated senior politicians from the two main UK parties couldn’t grasp this “simple” fact! 😃
Let them watch the economy fall apart then.
It's all in front of them.
We have had economic crisis after economic crisis, what do they care?
Do you think Thatcher cared about the economic crisis she caused which resulted in over 3 million unemployment and devastated communities?
They have no regrets, whatever the crisis, which seem to come in 10 year cycles - inflation, housing, employment, energy, etc.
Wealth and power doesn't shift. That is what is important.
Edit: And if things really do get out of hand they step in to temporarily implement a bit of socialism to save the system, until everything settles down and can carry on again as normal.
We have had economic crisis after economic crisis, what do they care?
It's true but there's also a tipping point where things do matter.
You can't talk up your economy if it's quite clearly failing on nearly all levels. Things will cease to function.
That said I thought it was all done in 2008 until the good old state bailed it all out.
Yeah they change tack when they are forced to.
The point is that it is not a case that they don't understand "simple" facts, which a couple of random geezers on an MTB forum have no problem understanding.
The distinction is very important imo. You can't expect to mount an effective fight if you ignore what motivates politicians determined to maintain the status quo - it's not stupidity or a lack of economic literacy.
Failure to understand the class nature of politics results in distraction and ineffective response. The important issue is not the economic argument but communicating the fact that at the very heart lies priorities.
Once people understand that then the economic arguments become comparatively irrelevant. Why would a voter even bother to listen to the economic argument put to them if they understand that the primary motive behind it conflicts with their own interests.
The problem is that after they implemented austerity 12 years ago - a political decision, not an economic one - idiots kept voting them into power
So as far as they're concerned, they've 'won the argument' because despite continuing massive year-on-year rises in inequality, the half-wits that make up this countries population keep voting for more of the same
To compound things further, right in the middle of it all they managed to convince 52% of the tabloid-reading simpletons that this was all nothing to do with them, but was instead entirely the fault of Brussels bureaucrats and forners
Well it worked with blaming Labour for the financial crisis that was caused entirely by their mates and donors, so why wouldn't you pull the same con a second time?
the half-wits that make up this countries population
Yeah when it isn't the politicians which govern this country that are the idiotic half-wits it's the general population that is.
STW is a veritable oasis of intellectual genius in a world of moronic knuckleheads!
Pedaling along a narrow woodland path makes your brain grow bigger 😂
The point is that it is not a case that they don’t understand “simple” facts, which a couple of random geezers on an MTB forum have no problem understanding.
Ernie you're being a bit literal. I don't for a second think they don't understand the problem, what I'm amazed at is that they refuse to do anything about it, because despite binners lack of faith in UK voters, it will result in support for them disappearing come the next election.
Unlike binners I think the voters know exactly what the problems are, because they experience them every day. What they lack is politicians whom they can support who can cut through the tabloid propaganda and establishment resistance to change. Corbyn was the only one who came close, but ultimately couldn't outwit the 5th columnists in his own party.
If you're not in the top 1% of the wealthiest in this country and you vote tory then you're a moron
Its that simple
Turkeys... Christmas
Anyway, specifically on Sunak... this was bang on yesterday by John Crace
https://twitter.com/JohnJCrace/status/1605288943355940886?s=20&t=hRqgt9H58L6kZPXU17oSaA
I think the voters know exactly what the problems are, because they experience them every day
I've no doubt that people know what the problems are, it's who they blame for them that's the problem.
Unlike binners I think the voters know exactly what the problems are, because they experience them every day.
Well yes, however I think it is difficult for the majority of voters to know exactly what the solutions are if politicians from the three mainstream political parties don't articulate them and instead offer them false alternatives.
Austerity was not the solution in 2010, but with the Tories and the LibDems both passionately claiming that it was, and Labour only half-heartedly claiming that it wasn't, it doesn't come as any great surprise that many voters, even if not the majority, were fooled into believing that it was.
As so it happens time and again, an aggressive Tory agenda is at best meekly opposed by Labour and at worse tacitly supported by them.
What is required to change the situation is a radical party which is separate from the current political establishment and which is prepared to challenge vested interests on behalf of the ordinary working people.
The Labour Party was created to be precisely that and was in fact hugely successful, until its character was fundamentally changed by self-serving careerists.
What is required to change the situation is a radical party which is separate from the current political establishment and which is prepared to challenge vested interests on behalf of the ordinary working people.
Well I said some time ago that the labour left and unions should set up a new party, hopefully with the involvement of the green party and others. They would need to call the bluff of the labour rightwingers though who would allow the anti-tory vote to be split. They would rather see the tories in power than cooperate with a new leftwing party.
The Labour Party was created to be precisely that and was in fact hugely successful, until its character was fundamentally changed by self-serving careerists.
you talking about Ramsay MacDonald? Or maybe Deggsy Hatton? Or a bunch of Momentum entryists? It's ironic folks like me who are mainstream long-term labour loyalists - not out of misguided tribalism but because it's the only feasible way to a fairer and better country to live in - get called 5th columnists or whatever by people who aren't even going to vote labour ffs. And I did my tiny bid at the time to get he who shall not be named elected fwiw. Fifth columnist...
it’s the only feasible way to a fairer and better country to live in
Nonsense. The labour party have resisted more change than they've ever enacted. Much like the tory party, their modus operandi is to find reasons for not doing the stuff that people want so that the system and people who wield power are never threatened.
Fifth columnist…
Was I talking about you? No I was talking about labour MPs and ex-prime ministers who did everything they could to prevent a Corbyn premiership. Why did they do that? See above.
I assume Sunak is at his other home in california?
Maybe he's doing swimming up and down his nice new indoor pool? Hasn't everyone had a new pool built recently, what with energy bills meaning they're so cheap to heat?
Continuing the theme of every one of them being worse than the last, its difficult to imagine anyone could make Boris look hard working, but Rishi seems to have gone AWOL from the moment he was elected appointed. We really do now seem to have a completely absentee government. Good job everything's generally ticking along nicely
Oh... and to our resident revolutionaries....
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This thread is about the Tories, so off you totter to your bizarre 'its all the labour party's fault' echo chamber and shout into that particular void
Well I said some time ago that the labour left and unions should set up a new party, hopefully with the involvement of the green party and others.
What you and I want doesn't count! If that becomes a political development it will only because of necessity and a gaping political void.
I don't think we have reached close to that stage yet with polls showing huge support for Labour. The inevitable disappointment with a Starmer premiership and the realisation that Labour can only tinker with the crisis and at best only minimise the consequences for ordinary people might help to shift public perceptions though.
Sadly that also provides fertile ground for the far-right and their scapegoating and simplistic solutions.
What Britian is crying out for is an individual outside the political establishment who can provide leadership and a rallying point for a wide-encompassing grassroot movement.
What is particularly positive and highly encouraging at the moment however is public attitude towards current industrial disputes.
Support for healthcare workers is never really surprising, especially now considering the role of the NHS during the greatest health emergency in a hundred years. But what is particularly interesting imo is the unexpected level of support for other workers involved in industrial action, such as train and bus drivers.
Part of the reason for this unexpected level of public support is many people now see the current strikers acting on the collective behalf of ordinary working people.
Mick Lynch in particular has been very effective in developing this public sense of awareness. Many people now realise that collectively ordinary working people are all fundamentally on the same side, and that the current highly unpopular Tory government, lead by a billionaire more interested in unlimited banker's bonuses, isn't.
There is now this growing sense among the ordinary people that a victory for one is a victory for all, even if they themselves might not benefit in a very obvious and direct manner.
I find this developing class consciousness greatly encouraging and it should be hugely worrying for the Tories. It does need to be provided with some political leadership though for it to be effectively tapped.
This thread is about the Tories, so off you totter to your bizarre ‘its all the labour party’s fault’ echo chamber and shout into that particular void
Lol not that self-appointed junk again.
He likes shutting down conversation when his Prince Starmer of Neoliberal land is bought into question.
Also, says the man who managed to bring Corbyn into the said thread the other day.
Anyway given Sunak is not kicking around Starmer is very much carrying the can!
One day you might realise that Starmer brings himself into this thread because in your own words, but put to better use - Starmer and Sunak are two cheeks of the same arse.
Righty anti-strikey.
