What is it that Williamson is supposed to be doing in his government role anyway? What’s his brief?
Seems to be his job was being an unofficial whip bullying everyone into submission or, alternately, just a bribe to him for knowing where all the bodies were buried.
So less a government role than a tory party one.
The Cabinet Office has finally published the list of Sir Gavin Williamson’s ministerial responsibilities (or the portfolio for the minister without portfolio), and it appears that he will be overseeing all government spin doctors. That is because he has responsibility for the Government Communications Service.
He is also responsible for: the GREAT campaign, the Geospatial Commission, the Office of Government Property, the Government Property Agency, the Places for Growth strategy and the Conflict, Stability and Security Fund (CSSF).
The Cabinet Office also says Williamson will be responsible for supporting the Oliver Dowden, the chancellor of the duchy of Lancaster, “on driving the delivery of [the] government’s priorities”.
from the grauniad
I think a part of my surprise at the speed at which things are unraveling is that I didn't believe the tories would install another incompetent but Sunak has already been exposed as incompetent
He just seemed basically intelligent and competent....
Well I never thought I would ever hear TJ describe a Tory politician in those terms!!
No doubt he is basically intelligent although there isn't anything to judge his competence on imo. Yes he wears expensive suits and shoes but he has only been an MP for 7 years and a cabinet minister for 2, he wasn't even particularly good at winning a party leadership election, so not really much to go on.
His only real cause for concern now, in terms of his political ambitions, is not pissing off voters - he needn't worry looking over his shoulder to keep an eye on the PCP.
If he screws up and really pisses off voters, which is very much more than likely imo, it won't be because he lacks intelligence but that he simply lacks any connection or understanding of ordinary working people, something which in contrast Johnson had to a degree a talent for despite being an Eton educated Tory.
According to Sunak:
‘I have friends who are aristocrats, I have friends who are upper class, I have friends who are working class… Well, not working class.’
‘I am very lucky to have been at these places, it does put me in an elite in society.'
Any incompetence on the part of Sunak won't be due to a lack of basic intelligence imo but due to a lack of basic understanding. Including that just because you believe you are right, eg Braverman should be Home Secretary, it doesn't mean that you should necessarily pursue something. The opinions of others who might not agree matters.
Arrogance and self-belief in the face of widespread opposition is something which is drummed in and can be very hard to shake off, it comes with the territory of being an ambitious Tory. It has spectacularly infected the likes of Kwasi Kwarteng, Liz Truss, and indeed Margret Thatcher. But it is not a sign of a lack of basic intelligence.
Seems to be his job was being an unofficial whip bullying everyone into submission or, alternately, just a bribe to him for knowing where all the bodies were buried.
Its got to be the latter . The bloke doesn't look like he could bully his way out of a wet paper bag !
Ernie - once again- there are many forms of intelligence and "Arrogance and self-belief in the face of widespread opposition" shows a lack of some aspects of it. Truss for example was spectacularly dim in this and many other regards. I wouldn't put Thatcher in that group BTW. She did allow dissenting voices and knew the value of them
I thought Sunak different to Truss and Johnson which is why I didn't want him as leader because I thought him more Like Thatcher but he turns out to be like Truss.
Any incompetence on the part of Sunak won’t be due to a lack of basic intelligence imo but due to a lack of basic understanding
We’re about to witness this in spades with the Autumn statement.
I don’t think Sunak, like those around him, has the remotest understanding of how hard life is for a lot of people already, before we even get into the winter
And because with his private education and private healthcare and ridiculously privileged lifestyle, he hasn’t a clue how threadbare our public services are.
He’s going to slash billions off public services that are already on their knees and give massive real terms pay cuts to millions of people already really struggling
He’ll do this because he’s a prisoner of an ideology which has only one answer to everything. More cuts. He’s so dislocated from reality (like most Tories) that he has absolutely no idea of the real world impact on peoples lives.
On channel 4 news now, his former deputy when he was chief whip is spilling the beans on what a truly nasty little shit Gavin Williamson is
Character traits he apparently used very effectively to smooth Sunaks path to number ten
That’ll be the much trumpeted ‘integrity’ then
On channel 4 news now, his former deputy when he was chief whip is spilling the beans on what a truly nasty little shit Gavin Williamson is
He cant last much longer. Everyone he has stamped on in the past are seeing an opportunity to return the favour with interest.
Maybe he's just there to try to rein in some of the excesses of noshing, tooting, in office trickle down, bunging, tugging, boozing, humping, flipping, tanking. Although a lot of Tories are about to lose their seats at the next GE, it does seem like they've had a lot of fun and they'll get lovely pensions.
Ernie, for someone who spends so much time commentating on political threads, you seem to miss (or ignore) some pretty basic things about how politics works (and in particular the current Tory party)
Including that just because you believe you are right, eg Braverman should be Home Secretary,
Sunak didn't choose Nutella, she was foisted on him by the extreme right of the party in return for him being anointed as the leader. Many on this thread have said it, and it's widely reported in the press.
sunak is not incompetent nor does he lack intelligence.
He is definitely politically naive and that will damage him more than anything else.
binners
Full Member
On channel 4 news now, his former deputy when he was chief whip is spilling the beans on what a truly nasty little shit Gavin Williamson isCharacter traits he apparently used very effectively to smooth Sunaks path to number ten
That’ll be the much trumpeted ‘integrity’ then
Just watched that. I was actually pretty shocked*. The whole Tory party is totally rotten to the core. Being in power so long has absolutely rotted it from within.
* I refuse to let myself become normalised to the political reality of recent years.
Frank- its all a bit semantics but his first two weeks as PM clearly shows a lack of competence
Just watched that. I was actually pretty shocked*. The whole Tory party is totally rotten to the core. Being in power so long has absolutely rotted it from within
Indeed.
Can you imagine any organisation other than the modern Tory party where a nasty, tragic little inadequate like Gavin Williamson could bully his way to the top and effectively make himself unsackable?
In absolutely any other ‘job’, if you carried on like he has, you’d be out on your ear in no time, never mind being constantly promoted. I can’t think of anywhere else where constantly abusing and threatening people would not just be tolerated, but repeatedly rewarded.
He’s the living embodiment of the party he’s part of. A vile, toxic little bully, constantly punching down
Tj - yes, semantics but...he's not incompetent but is politically naive and, IMO, his performance to date vindicates that.
Moving on from that...he hasn't got off to a strong start and tory reaction to next week's Autumn Statement will be telling - as will how the faithful take to the agreement he's working on with Macron to address the cross channel migrants issue.
I wonder what attack line Labour will use at PMQs tomorrow?
Id say his performance so far is incompetent 🙂 Dithering over Williamson. " I want to wait for the outcome of the inquiry but I may take action earlier"
Binners - I've known similar behaviour if not as severe in the NHS
And he's gone!
Still a “Sir”? For services to blackmail and shitbaggery.
In absolutely any other ‘job’, if you carried on like he has, you’d be out on your ear in no time, never mind being constantly promoted.
He was chief whip though - bullying people is literally the job description
He was chief whip though
And his behaviour when Minister? And after getting his gong ages after being a whip?
One down; lots more to go!
He's going to '...fight to clear his name' - titter.
Ernie – once again- there are many forms of intelligence and “Arrogance and self-belief in the face of widespread opposition” shows a lack of some aspects of it. Truss for example was spectacularly dim in this and many other regards. I wouldn’t put Thatcher in that group BTW. She did allow dissenting voices and knew the value of them
Yeah you keep telling about these many forms of intelligence TJ, I am agreeing with you that Sunak is "basically intelligent", I am only asking you where you got the impression that he is competent from - where is/was the evidence that you based this opinion on? I am suspecting that it might be nothing more than his slick presentation?
And arrogance and self-belief in the face of widespread opposition doesn't show a lack of intelligence imo. I know that you probably won't agree with me but Kwasi Kwarteng is imo undoubtedly highly intelligent, despite the fact that arrogance and self-belief, in the face of widespread opposition, caused his career in high office to spectacularly collapse.
Neither do I agree with you putting Margaret Thatcher into a separate category. Yes she was shrewd political operator who understood the value of a politically diverse Cabinet, I am not sure she tolerated "dissenting voices" though ...... Okay it was Spitting Image but there is a reason why "What about the vegetables? They will have the same as me!" was so funny and has remained an enduring TV classic.
But most of all it was her arrogance and self-belief in the face of widespread opposition that brought about the spectacular and abrupt end to Thatcher's political career.
The Poll Tax, a policy which she called her flagship policy, and which she staked everything on, was a breathtakingly daft idea. You didn't need to be a political analyst to work that one out.
Long before it was introduced it was obvious to everyone that the Poll Tax would be a total disaster - worse than any failed tax proposal made by Kwarteng.
And yet still she ploughed on with the Poll Tax, presumably fully aware of how deeply unpopular it was. And in what must surely have been an act of pure spite she introduced it in Scotland before England and Wales, presumably in revenge for Scotland consistently voting more and more for Labour during her entire premiership.
I don't know what sort of intelligence you want to attribute to Thatcher but she was clearly an intelligent woman whose daft arrogance and self-belief brought about her political career to an early and humiliating end.
He’s going to ‘…fight to clear his name’ – titter.
He missed a trick here. Everyone had been asking what the minister without a portfolio does. So could have replied "their job is to clear their name".
I am not sure she tolerated “dissenting voices” though
Remember Heseltine bound and gagged, bouncing around the back benches?
If he’s going to clear his name, I wonder if he’ll beat Cruella’s 6 day redemption?
In other news, shameless to the end, Johnson has nominated all his mates for peerages as a parting **** off to us all
https://twitter.com/marinahyde/status/1590032524759412738?s=46&t=v7V7DiAkSPbupHdz83evVQ
Lady Nadine of Barking can take her place in the Lords
And in what must surely have been an act of pure spite she introduced it in Scotland before England and Wales
If you read the accounts of the time she didnt actually want to introduce it in Scotland first since she wanted everyone to "benefit" from it at the same time.
However there was a rates change due in Scotland and so she had pressure put on her by the Scottish conservatives to introduce the poll tax early there to avoid that.
There were some of her inner circle who did see it as an opportunity to test it out before the wider introduction and also as a way of getting some of the ministers who werent convinced by it to give way (on the grounds if it ran into problems it could be rolled back) but it wasnt done out of spite.
He was chief whip though – bullying people is literally the job description
Was it Williamson's "black book" that got leaked? Had details about a former prime minister and her close friend her Chancellor?
In other news, shameless to the end, Johnson has nominated all his mates for peerages as a parting **** off to us all
Whats particularly good is the MPs nominated apparently arent going to switch until next election to avoid any awkward byelections.
Should be told take it now or gtfo.
Back to Williamson. Can he be airdropped into I am a celebrity for a deathmatch with Hancock using flamethrowers.
Two disgraced ministers enter will either leave?
Ernie - you really need to grasp this concept of differing types of intelligence. Psychiatrists all agree there are many forms. Kwartang is a classic example of someone who has a very high level of one form and very little of others
Really dude - check it out Kwartang is seriously dim in everything but scholastic achievement which only measures a very limited and narrow type of intelligence. Truss is even more obvious. Seriously dim.
You have this weird deference to anyone with scholastic achievement. Its just a very narrow type of intelligence and a very poor measure
You have far more emotional intelligence that any of these clowns for example
Sunak
You could well be right in that I was conned by Sunaks seeming competence. I feared he would be more competent that he is and might recover the tories fortunes. He just seemed competent to me. I was apparantly wrong
Success in politics isn't about intelligence tests but political nous. They have countless varying scenarios played out in front of them by civil servants and think tanks plus units coming up with slogans with a bit of alliteration and a pattern of three. The Oxbridge bit can be useful in persuading the more cap doffing voters that they know what they're doing but it comes down to which guidance they choose to run with and Truss and Kwarteng showed you can be spectacularly wrong. Whereas Williamson, Phillips and so on show you can climb the greay pole without being the sharpest knife in the drawer.
There were some of her inner circle who did see it as an opportunity to test it out before the wider introduction
Yeah I think introducing it into Scotland was always seen as a bit of a test/dry run for the rest of the UK. And whilst I accept that allegations of 'spite' might be an exaggeration and hyperbole it does seem particularly "ironic" for want of a better word, that it should have been introduced in the one part of the UK where it undoubtedly had least support.
Whilst Tory support remained more or less stable in England throughout Thatcher's premiership it fell in every Scottish general election. By the time of the Poll Tax's introduction the Tories were deeply unpopular in Scotland, and yet they still remained popular in England.
How long do we give Williamson? I’ll start the bidding at 3 days
he didn't even make that!
Success in politics isn’t about intelligence tests but political nous
"Nous" is a form of intelligence! Just its not a form measured in intelligence tests or scholastic achievement - thats why I put Thatcher in a different category to Truss and Kwateng - she had a much broader range of itelligence than Truss
So did Williamson hang on till just after the 7 o'clock news on Channel 4?😐
So when does Braverman get the chop?
And of course Sunak now has serious questions to answer about why he appointed Williamson
Ernie – you really need to grasp this concept of differing types of intelligence.
No I really don't TJ. I attach very little importance to whether someone is intelligent or not, or what sort of intelligence they might possess.
There are far more important things that matter to me. I never seem to feel the need to judge someone's intelligence.
Like you I don't believe that it is one single thing which defines intelligence - so why even bother to think about it?
Unless it is part of your job as a psychologist or something.
How on earth does the HR department keep up with this?
"Brenda, can you update the Cabinet Minister's webpage again, take Williamson out?"
"WTF, I only put him in 2 days ago!"
Ernie - so why do you keep on slating me when I say Truss is dim?
Anyway - we are diverting this again 😉
I have been pondering on why I expected Sunak to me more competent than he has proven to be. I guess i was conned. I'm not good at sussing duplicitous people and he had not done any obviously incompetent things that I had seen - indeed his analysis of what would happen if Truss became PM was remarkably accurate
How on earth does the HR department keep up with this?
They dispensed with the HR department a while back. They just pull names out of a hat now, to see who’s going to be in cabinet this week
Gavin Williamson will pick up £16,876 in severance pay for lasting exactly TWO weeks in government (plus £2,589 in gross pay)
As it's the third time he's been sacked/ forced to quit govt, presumably he's done quite nicely out of taxpayer.
He’s the political equivalent of Jose Mourinho
Ernie – so why do you keep on slating me when I say Truss is dim?
No I haven't slated you. I just don't agree with you. It doesn't matter whether you think Truss is dim or not. The important thing is that that's not the issue. The problem with Tory leaders is not that they might be dim. Clever Tory leaders are not the solution. IMO
So why do you keep slating me for my alledged cap-doffing deference?
I have been pondering on why I expected Sunak to me more competent than he has proven to be.
Because he spends a lot of time and effort on PR and there were, generally, bigger screwups at anyone time than him.
He was also good at diving into the background when one of his plans failed and having "sources" brief it was all Johnsons fault.
Problem is the submarine approach fails when you are PM and cant duck and leave the boss isolated.
Truce! time out!
you really need to grasp this concept of differing types of intelligence. Psychiatrists all agree there are many forms.
Tj, are you sure you mean psychiatrists and not psychologists? Either way I for one don’t buy the numerous types of intelligence idea. Just for the record.
