Why? So you can win arguments and feel like a big man?

don’t forget a double noble prize winner was the main proponent of homeopathy

Eh? The dirty bastard! 😯

I'm just pulling up a chair on this one, as I've nothing new to add. A relief to many, I'm sure.

I knew it was too good to be true....

Interesting question, mol, thanks.

Well, if "winning" an argument is that one has managed to convince those holding the opposite view to change their minds, then I don't see any indication that I've "won" at all, and as I've nothing new to say about it in an effort to convince or "win", then the answer is to your question is: no.

I suppose there might be a certain amount of ego gratification (feeling "big") in "winning" the argument, but as I haven't, I guess I'll just have to forgo that pleasure.

Butt pie is (alledgedly) a gentlemans relaxation magazine specialising in photo - pictorials of young ladies back bottoms. Edited and part owned by one certain SFB

From where can one purchase a copy of said publication, just out of interest?

For the purposes of Religious Observance, of course..

deadlydarcy - Member

I'm just pulling up a chair on this one, as I've nothing new to add. A relief to many, I'm sure.

I knew it was too good to be true....

Yeah. Sorry. I'll retire to the back of the room. Unless directly questioned, of course. Be rude not to reply. 8)

Talkemada - I believe it can be purchased from the church of the pulchritudinous saint Kylie. Can I get an amen?

Amen Brother!

Amen indeed.... 😀

Woppit - I'll 'question you directly' then. Why the continued insistence on trying to provoke an argument with me ?(couldnt help but notice your little dig about my 'part time' denomination). Are you really so short of stimulation?

Are you really so short of stimulation?

didn't he say as much himself ?

1: I've stopped. Probably best not to start again, eh?

2: No.

Some people need or want to believe in God or gods and others don't. I think that about sums it up.

As for Mr Woppit I think he spends most of his life stimulating himself.

1: I've stopped

Yeah! We win! Woohoo!

In your FACE Woppit!

As for Mr Woppit I think he spends most of his life stimulating himself.

An illuminating insight and a pithy, cogently presented argument.

Congrats. Must have taken all of a nanosecond to think up. Are you 15?

Well, if God made Man in his own image, doesn't He spend all His life [i]simulating[/i] himself? ❓

molgrips - Member

1: I've stopped

Yeah! We win! Woohoo!

In your FACE Woppit!

Well, not exactly. "Winning" was defined as "convincing the other of the argument". Neither "side" has convinced the other, so there are in fact, no "winners" at all.

As it happens...

Oh, and I believe I'M supposed to be the aggressive one? Getting in someone's "FACE" takes a lot more than typing stuff into a forum. But it is a safe place from which to pursue that fantasy, of course.

Anymore like that talkemada, and I'll make sure you're excommunicated myself.

Admitting you believe in religion is just admitting you are thick

what a thick thing to say.

didnt read the rest tbh, but imo, you cant prove the existance or lack of ANY God:

Some of us dont care either way, those of us who do; cant we all just play nicely and get along?
thats what it boils down to surely?

i dont see why some "believers" feel the need to make everyone else believe?
or is it just an excuse for a fight?

Mr Woppit you know so much yet understand so little

Please enlighten me.

The Doctrine of the Hutaree is based on faith and most of all the testimony of Jesus.

sex panther!
60% of the time, it works all of the time!

those of us who do; cant we all just play nicely and get along?

it would appear not 🙁

Mr Woppit you know so much yet understand so little

I don't know how you can say that when you only have what he says to go by

Anymore like that talkemada, and I'll make sure you're excommunicated myself.

Oooohhhhhh...

(Trembles with anticipation)

Steady ...

Woppit.. do you not have a sense of humour?

(for those of you who struggle, I was making a joke with my earlier in your face post)

Yes, it's difficult not to project assumptions onto forum text, isn't it?

I, at least, stand corrected. 8)

This is boring now. Can't we discuss ladies' bottoms instead? 😀

You know, I started reading this thread with such high hopes. The early mood seemed to be one of tolerance and respect; accepting that some may hold to faiths that others find laughable but that they should not be censured for holding such views. Then it deteriorated into a bitter slanging match which neither side is going to win or back down from. Why do we bother?

PS In the interests of fairness I should declare myself to be a Christian. If this invalidates my views please ignore the above. Apologies for being thick and all that.

So.... where do you want to go from here? Or was that it?

Religion - the opium of the masses.

Personally, I think the wholesale dismissal/denial of the possibility of the existence of (a) God(s) is perhaps naive and narrow-minded. None of us can incontrovertibly prove or disprove such a phenomenon. There's no harm in speculation, but I do find the patronising, superior and condescending attitudes of some people from both sides of the debate somewhat arrogant and supercilious. Anyone has the right to question my beliefs, but don't think that your views are somehow superior or 'more right' than mine. Until you can prove to me, one way or the other, I'll continue to have my own opinions about things.

Seems to me that Atheism, like most other 'religions', has become quite a lucrative industry for some...

Now, ladies' bottoms, anyone? 😉

Religion - the opium of the masses.

Maybe the collective Human consciousness needs some form of opiate, though?

Ladies bottoms as proof of the existence of God? 😀

Ladies bottoms as proof of the existence of God?

There is no doubt, in my mind...

[img] [/img]

Seems to me that Atheism, like most other 'religions', has become quite a lucrative industry for some...

too ****in right - and shrill bloody evangelists of any denomination are all kack, I'd no sooner go for a beer with Dawkins than I would with any of those on the other side of the business

(what was this about bottoms? Has somebody found the "fisting for jesus" website again ?)

#
TandemJeremy - Member

Stop poking the religious. The debate gets nowhere. I know its hard to resist as they are such easy and soft targets with no defence but its shooting fish in a barrel

Posted 7 hours ago #

😀 You arrogant patronising ****er.

This forum is riddled with pretentious middle-class conformists who believe and accept everything they are told/sold.

Perish the thought that I should gloat how easy I often find it to 'poke these soft targets with no defence'.

That's a bit rude, Ernie. No need for that.

What's your view on bottoms?

That's a bit rude, Ernie. No need for that.

No ruder the TJ's post.

........and I let the swear filter decide what's acceptable in polite middle-class debate.

Why do you have to be so rude to people? TJ hasn't really been offensive to anyone, and I'm sure people can speak up for themselves if they so wish. There's no need to call people names.

Why don't you go and have a look at some bottoms for a while, calm down, have a think about your comments and how they could upset someone?

If more people thought about the joys of bottoms, the World would be a happier place...

Ernie is right. I was being rude to both sides of the debate. Deliberately so.

Kylie's bottom is a wonderful thing, but all it proves is that Kylie's bottom exists (or possibly that evolution is a thing of beauty).

Seems to me that Atheism, like most other 'religions',

Atheism is not a religion.

Sorry to raise the point. Not trying to be strident nor nuffink...

But why, TJ, why? What do you hope to gain, by upsetting people?

🙁

Atheism is not a religion.

Hmm, let's see; a shared philosophy or 'belief' that there is no God/Divine Creator/[url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ot-whats-an-iphone#post-1268515 ]raisin detererer[/url], promoted by various self-styled 'prophets' who enjoy a devoted following...

😉

Its a pointless debate and both sides are being stupid. Shooting fish in a barrel is no sport its cruelty and defending a faith position is also pretty stupid as it comes down to "I believe"

I have had this argument too often.

Talkemada - Member

Atheism is not a religion.

Hmm, let's see; a shared philosophy or 'belief' that there is no God/Divine Creator/raisin detererer, promoted by various self-styled 'prophets' who enjoy a devoted following...

Nope.

TJ hasn't really been offensive to anyone, and I'm sure people can speak up for themselves if they so wish. There's no need to call people names.

I haven't really been offensive to anyone either - my reference to 'pretentious middle-class conformists' was simply a generalisation.

When you talk about calling people names, do you mean like how people with religious views are described on here ....... in what has now become a daily ritual ?

TandemJeremy - Member

Its a pointless debate and both sides are being stupid. Shooting fish in a barrel is no sport its cruelty and defending a faith position is also pretty stupid as it comes down to "I believe"

I have had this argument too often.

[img] [/img]

😉

in what has now become a daily ritual

Clever. See what you did, there!

BTW, just sussed "Talkemada" - ironic. 😀

See, the thing is, people are free to 'believe' in whatever they choose. They can believe there is a God, they can believe there isn't a God. They can believe in mumbo-jumbo, they can believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, that directional hi-fi cables really do have benefits, whatever they [i]choose[/i].

But regardless of whatever they believe, no-one has the right to assume their views are superior to others. Better, perhaps, to accept that what works for some, might not work for others, etc.

Same way as I can enjoy a piece of music someone else thinks is crap. People are all different. And it's their very individuality I believe we must all respect.

An invisible and undetectable Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe.

Fact!

I don't believe in any God but if I fell out of a plane without a parachute I think I may give praying a try. (Unless of course the plane was on the ground, then I'd just swear a lot)

Talkemada - when religions cause so much harm I have to disagree with you. Mockery is the best weapon tho.

no-one has the right to assume their views are superior to others.

Of course they have. And it's perfectly natural. In fact, I would be very worried if someone believed in stuff which considered to be a inferior point of view.

See, the thing is, people are free to 'believe' in whatever they choose.

Absolutely. Couldn't agree more.

no-one has the right to assume their views are superior to others

Couldn't agree less. Everybody has that right, if that's what they want to think. (No they don't! Yes they do! No they.... etc.)

[i]Caveat[/i]: Doesn't stop me from agreeing with:

what works for some, might not work for others, etc

Same way as I can enjoy a pice of music someone else thinks is crap.

I was about to expand on this, but I realised I'd only restart the former, very lengthy thread, and risk a lot of seriously boring repetition... 😉

But why, TJ, why? What do you hope to gain, by upsetting people?

You are upset that people have questions about something that on the basis of reasoned and robust argument looks entirely improbable and causes massive problems in our society.

A question i asked someone last night:
Imagine there was no such thing as religion and no concept of a god or similar thing.
A man walks up to you and says he is going to build a series of massive buildings in honour of a man who lives in the sky and who simultaneously demands that you MUST love him and MUST seek his forgiveness for things he says you have done wrong. You must also fear him btw, and submit to his will and put blind faith in him.

How ridiculous does that sound? Just think about it.

Don't use being upset as an excuse for not answering clear reasoned questions on murky unreasoned arguments.

Uh-oh. I'm off...

Religions themselves don't cause harm, it's the followers of such, and their interpretations of doctrines and guidelines that do.

[url=

don't kill people....[/url]

Sorry, I should clarify:

No-one has the right to assume their views are superior to someone else, unless they can prove incontrovertibly that they are right.

Since no one group or person has yet proved or disproved the existence of God, then I think folk should respect one another's right to their particular views.

I'm Agnostic. I find a lot of the views of Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists etc not to my particular taste. I'm sure, in my mind, that a fair chunk of it is bollocks. but then, I also feel the same way about Science (the religion for the post-industrial age). I am told that the universe is x miles wide or whatever, without being shown any proof. Amongst other equally preposterous things.

Don't make me righter or wronger than anyone else though. I could have it all wrong, and in fact the 'weirdo' down the street has in fact got it 'right'. Who knows?

Bit more respect and humility between folk wouldn't come amiss, I reckon.

My point!

People aren't quite as free to believe as you think though.
how many people suddenly decide to follow Buddhism after growing up in Tehran?
How many folk convert to Judaism in Japan?
How many people followed Christ in pre-Columbian America?
Generally, what you believe is tightly controlled by where you were born and the indoctrination by your relatives.
(even if the instinct for spirituality, or not, seems to be contolled by a series of genes)
One of the important points that us evil atheists always try to get across is that people should try and critically examine what and why they themselves end up believing in.

Fair point, west-kipper, I suppose I should have made it clear I was referring to most people in the West. Even within communities, there is narrow-mindedness and intolerance.

If someone is truly secure in their beliefs, then surely they would have little or no reason to argue such things with others?

I'm not 100% confident in what I think I know. I try to be open to other ideas and alternative philosophies. I believe there is much I can learn, from all others. Because maybe, just maybe, Joe Bloggs down the road might come up with something I haven't thought of, or may have missed. It is possible, and therefore I think it's important to keep an open mind.

Thre's only one form of belief that can be tested, and tested again with any reliability or consistency,
Its called SCIENCE.

Personally, If I had to pick one to join up to, I think Hindus have the best food, Celebrate making sweet love in varied ways, and the more naked, dirty and stoned you are, the more holy.

I seem to remember catholiscism seems to be about making you guilty about a swift one off the wrist

Thre's only one form of belief that can be tested, and tested again with any reliability or consistency,
Its called SCIENCE.

well, you do it three times and stick some error bars on.

[i]Thre's only one form of belief that can be tested, and tested again with any reliability or consistency,
Its called SCIENCE.[/i]

Any belief system can be tested and found to be true when tested against it's own logic system.
So the Christian religion can be shown to be rubbish when tested using scientific methods and likewise science can be shown to be rubbish if you use the bible as your test method.

Well I'm open to hearing a better one.
Most religions dont have any method at all.
(I notice that you're even using scientific terminology there to rebuff me)

and insulting others who live a life based on that subject.
but there's the rub - can one rationally claim to follow Jesus in a militant fashion ? Or perhaps Jesus was too wimpy and you just pick the violent bits out of the Bible ? It all seems a bit complicated

I don't think Talkemada was expecting The Spanish Inquisition 😉

😀

Brethren, let us Gather In Worship...

[img] ?90912L2_MINOGUE_B_GR_01[/img]

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Now.... what..err...was..this, um.. thread about again?

I blame Michael Hutchence...

Markd

Imagine there was no such thing as religion and no concept of a god or similar thing.
A man walks up to you and says he is going to build a series of massive buildings in honour of a man who lives in the sky and who simultaneously demands that you MUST love him and MUST seek his forgiveness for things he says you have done wrong. You must also fear him btw, and submit to his will and put blind faith in him.

Who said you have to submit,love etc? Or does that part not suit your post?

Atheism is not a religion.

Some people treat it like dogma tho eh Woppit? 🙂

Plus, you are allowed to disagree with people but you are not allowed to upset them by trying to ram your views down their throat like you do on here.

And for those followers of science, all science does is answer questions about the physical universe. It doesn't really tell us why it's all here, if there really is a supreme being or not, or if our existence has been managed for any kind of purpose.

Rats in a maze...

Some people treat it like dogma tho eh Woppit?

I hadn't noticed.

Plus, you are allowed to disagree with people but you are not allowed to upset them by trying to ram your views down their throat like you do on here.

Um, I don't "ram" anything. Nobody is forced to read this stuff. I do like to argue robustly when I'm in the mood, though. As do many others on many subjects. Do you respond to them all with strictures and instructions as to their behaviour?

On whose behalf are you issuing this edict? Surely you don't have control of the rules governing participation? I thought that was the responsibility of the Forum Moderators? Or have you been elected Pope recently. If not, I could well be ecouraged towards a pithy response, the contents of which I will leave to your imagination. After all, I don't want to be considered "aggressive"...

And for those followers of science, all science does is answer questions about the physical universe. It doesn't really tell us why it's all here, if there really is a supreme being or not, or if our existence has been managed for any kind of purpose.

Oh well. I suppose that about wraps it up, then. Subject over.

Um, I don't "ram" anything. Nobody is forced to read this stuff.

🙄

You only know if it's gonna upset you after you've read it...

On whose behalf are you issuing this edict?

Well it's part of how to behave in a considerate caring society, is it not?

Oh well. I suppose that about wraps it up, then. Subject over.

Amen. Oh damn..

Ooh, bottoms....

Thre's only one form of belief that can be tested, and tested again with any reliability or consistency,
Its called SCIENCE.

But herein lies a problem. Science is not good at understanding qualities, for it is only able to pontificate on that which can be quantified, and in quantifying many aspects of life you lose the very essence. Not only that, but science is a very human endeavour, whereby it is is at the mercy of the metaphors utlised by scientists to explain their hypotheses and theories. Science can neither tell us anything about events that happen spontaneously, since it limits itself to that which is replicable, by anyone, anywhere, at any time. Then finally we have quantum theory that shows us that the consciousness of the observer very much does have an impact on that which is observed, and any pretence at true objectivity goes out of the window.......

Presumably you didn't read molgrips's final [i]definitive[/i] summing up...

Lol 🙂

Science can neither tell us anything about events that happen spontaneously

Not quite right..

Then finally we have quantum theory that shows us that the consciousness of the observer very much does have an impact on that which is observed

Again.. that's not exactly how it works. But the essence of your post is bang on.

So then believers - I ask you for one piece of evidence that any god exists. I am not asking for proof - but just one tiny bit of evidence that stands up to any objective scrutiny.

Then it deteriorated into a bitter slanging match

I tried to steer it towards the nature and ramifications of belief but no one was interested 🙁