This research doesn't fully reflect the issues.
Firstly a very large number of economic migrants come here illegally and are not reflected in official statistics, if they've managed to come here illegally who's to say they can't claim benefits but trick the system that they were not immigrants ?
Whilst immigrants may not claim benefit our tax policy (£10k tax free) means they take low paid jobs but enjoy all the benefits of the NHS etc without paying very much (or anything) towards them causing a material drag on the economy
It's a fact that so many Eastern Europeans were arriving, taking low paid jobs and then claiming child benefit for families outside the UK they couldn't cope with the backlog.
We should have a points based immigration policy (i.e. the more you can contribute the easier it is to get in, those taking low paid work would be reduced)
We should have proper border controls which track when people arrive and when they leave. If people fail to leave then they should be tracked down and deported
Employers found to be hiring people without the correct visas/work permits should be liable for costs of deporting them
Firstly a very large number of economic migrants come here illegally and are not reflected in official statistics, if they've managed to come here illegally who's to say they can't claim benefits but trick the system that they were not immigrants ?
do you have any evidence to back this up?
jambalaya - Member
This research doesn't fully reflect the issues.Firstly a very large number of economic migrants come here illegally and are not reflected in official statistics, if they've managed to come here illegally who's to say they can't claim benefits but trick the system that they were not immigrants ?
Immigration and benefits:
‘So if benefit “tourism” is still out even if the European Commission gets its way, long-term sponging won’t an option thanks to the government’s own crackdown, and there are other more attractive destinations closer to home, it’s difficult to see why floods of work-shy immigrants will be queuing up to make Britain their home.
FactCheck asked the government for estimates of how big the problem of benefit tourism actually is, and whether it had got better or worse since the introduction of “right to reside” in 2004.
A DWP spokesman said the department had “no information available”.’
[url] http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-benefit-tourism-scare-sent-packing/8050 [/url]
‘The only way in which someone entering the UK could come and live off benefits from “day one” would be if their partner was happy to give them a slice of their own, should they be receiving any.
But as we don’t know how many people on benefits then go on to sponsor a partner, we have no idea how many are prepared to do that.
Likewise, we can’t say whether the vast majority of those who enter for family reasons and are entitled to handouts, go on to claim them, although we’ve previously shown that a smaller proportion of overseas nationals claim benefits than UK nationals.
In these times of austerity, Ms May is, naturally, looking at reducing the burden on the state – whether through non-EU nationals or through UK citizens.
The only problem is that we can’t find any way of saying how much that burden would be reduced by. We went back to the home office for clarification on Mr Green’s comments.
They hadn’t responded by the time we went to press.’
[url] http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-minister-wrong-on-immigration/10785 [/url]
The then Employment Minister Chris Grayling, whose name will be familiar to regular readers, raised the issue of “benefit tourism” at the beginning of the year.
Were increasing numbers of immigrants coming to these shores with a view to enjoying an easy life on benefits. Errr…no. We found that the claimant rate among overseas nationals has fallen by two thirds in a decade, despite the economic downturn.
UKIP leader Nigel Farage took a similar line when he warned about how easy it is for Eastern European migrants to get a council house in Britain.
The truth is that it’s not easy and only 1 per cent of people from the A8 nations, which include Poland and the Baltic States, were living in social housing the last time anyone checked.
[url] http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/2012-a-year-of-lying-shamelessly/12120 [/url]
Working people after all are more than just a commodity, they are human beings with local roots, family, friends, and connections.
No wonder 'working people' have trouble competing. I can't think of a single person, friend or collegue, who works or lives near where they grew up, or lives near family. It's beyond weird. When you grow up you move. If you get a new job you move.
No wonder 'working people' have trouble competing. I can't think of a single person, friend or collegue, who works or lives near where they grew up, or lives near family. It's beyond weird. When you grow up you move. If you get a new job you move.
What a sad world-view you have.
Firstly a very large number of economic migrants come here illegally and are not reflected in official statistics, if they've managed to come here illegally who's to say they can't claim benefits but trick the system that they were not immigrants ?
Who's to say any old shite you want to make up to try and prove your point, without any evidence?
What a sad world-view you have.
Is it? I thought it was normal.
I can't think of a single person, friend or collegue, who works or lives near where they grew up, or lives near family.
I suspect that's because of where you live. Down South, perhaps? Here in the North East, I know lots of people who work or live near to where they grew up.
We currently live half way between my parents' house and my in-laws' house. We can walk to either of them in about ten minutes. I teach in my old sixth form college, which was also the grammar school where my dad went. In September, my eldest starts the secondary school which my wife and I went to. My youngest is taught by someone who was in my tutor group at sixth form; there's a lad in her class whose dad was at school with me and another whose grandma taught me.
And this is in Darlington, which is positively cosmopolitan compared to much of the rest of County Durham 🙂
As Ernie said up there:
Working people after all are more than just a commodity, they are human beings with local roots, family, friends, and connections. Chasing jobs might well fulfill the needs of the market but it does not necessarily fulfill the needs of happy and content human beings.
Especially in light of recent threads on here on childcare costs and coping with school closures, I think we're exceptionally lucky to live so close to our families and to the places we grew up.
I suspect that's because of where you live. Down South, perhaps? Here in the North East, I know lots of people who work or live near to where they grew up.
I went to uni near you so I know lots of your people. 😉 I can't think of one that's still there. Off the top of my head:
- France
- Denmark
- Canada x2
- Manchester-ish x2
- Rotherham
I went to uni near you so I know lots of your people.
I suspect the same uni that I went to 🙂
There is some flow in and out: my granddads were from Birmingham and the north of Scotland; both my sisters have moved 'away' - one to Newcastle (away is a relative term) and one to Avimore - and one of my two brothers has emigrated to Canada.
Is it? I thought it was normal.
Perhaps amongst people who are very 'money-motivated'.
No wonder 'working people' have trouble competing.
And this - it's very sad that life for some people is all about 'competing'.
But England is. and all that greeness? its not really open countryside is it - find me somewhere where you are more than a mile in any direction from a road, a house, a pylon, a village? Never mind some $hite commuter town and a motorway. Not many such spots in England are there?
That's probably true of most of Europe, though - my wife's from Extremadura, one of the poorest and most rural areas of Spain (26,2 people/km2), and yet even there you'd be hard pushed to find somewhere completely untouched: a dry stone wall marking a field boundary, a pylon, a track leading to a farm...
a very large number of economic migrants come here illegally and are not reflected in official statistics,
WTF This is some sort of fear meme said by many but as you note you have absolutely no figures to back this up at all
if they've managed to come here illegally who's to say they can't claim benefits
As you are making the claim I believe the onus is on you to substantiate your claim rather - can you?
You dont need to pass an identity check to illegally enter the country as you sneak in but you do to claim benefits - they are not the same at all.
but trick the system that they were not immigrants ?
if they could do this they would have no need to come here illegally as they could "trick the system" and they could live here legally
If you come here illegally what you intend to do is work here illegally rather than risk drawing attention to your self to the agents of the state by fraudulently claiming benefits and attending govt offices on a regular basis
Immigrants who arrived after 1999 were 45% less likely to receive state benefits or tax credits than UK natives in the period 2000-2011,
This research doesn't fully reflect the issues
Did you read the methodology for the research?
We should have proper border controls which track when people arrive and when they leave. If people fail to leave then they should be tracked down and deported
Why is it any business of the UK to track and log when I, as a UK citizen, arrive and leave the UK?
What are you willing to sacrifice to pay for the doubling of border guards at existing checkpoints? (Now you have to check everyone out as well as in). And what are you willing to sacrifice to pay for a chain of border guards along the unguarded, often unsignposted land borders between the UK and Ireland, and the UK and the (imminent) Republic of Scotland? 😆
Quite a bit of coastline too, your roving coastline border guards will cost a few pence.
do you have any evidence to back this up?
@Yunki, thousands of student visas issued to students who arrive in the country but never turn up to college for one
Look at all the illegal accommodation built in back gardens full of people working here illegally, have you seen the ariel photos ?
Why is it any business of the UK to track and log when I, as a UK citizen, arrive and leave the UK?
@konabunny I didn't say it should be for UK passport holders (I personally would't have an issue). There are many countries around the world which do this for visitors, the US for one.
The fact is you can come to the UK as a tourist, so no right to work, and you can stay here as long as you want and work illegally. The Boarder Control have no idea if you left or not.
Yeah, I think when I said evidence, I was looking for something a bit more concrete than a story you heard in the pub, or sensationalist headlines from right wing newspapers 😆
Did you read the methodology for the research?
You can prove anything with facts.
do something to change [b]our own blood[/b] into hard working folk
WTF does this mean?
jambalaya - Member@Yunki, thousands of student visas issued to students who arrive in the country but never turn up to college for one
Which is a trivial number. Entering the UK isn't hard to do, working within the UK illegally also isn't that hard if you know people, but claiming benefits in the UK without entitlement, not so easy at all (student visas specifically restrict access to state funds, so you have to get into black methods rather than just working the system- whole different thing from abusing a student visa to work)
Do you fancy putting a number on the cost? Is it a tiny drop in the bucket compared to the the billions of pounds we take in fees alone from legit foreign students? Yes. So be realistic and accept it as a trivial cost that allows us to make a colossal profit. Or, alternatively, demand even more restrictions on student visas which will put even more paying visitors off coming to the UK.
the illegal accommodation built in back gardens full of people working here illegally
IDIOTS if they are here illegally why are they not claiming benefits
The Boarder Control have no idea if you left or not.
Probably sleeping at their posts.
Plenty of data here
rough estimate half to three quarters of a million irregulars in the UK
(illegal immigrants, failed asylum seekers, visa overstayers and children of the above with no legal right to remain)
Perhaps amongst people who are very 'money-motivated'.
Not sure it's money as such. More self respect. Looking after your family and giving them the best you can. Money is a prerequisite to some extent but mobility is more important.
And this - it's very sad that life for some people is all about 'competing'.
I don't even know where to start with that one. Life is competition.
There are many countries around the world which do this for visitors, the US for one.
The US doesn't check people out. If you leave by air and the airline employee remembers your tag, it will get processed, but otherwise not, and not by land or sea.
In any case, what difference does it make? A person who overstays a visa doesn't have work rights anyway. You can log them as overstaying but that doesn't stop them working illegally.
And how do you make the system apply to non-UK citizens only? and do you realize you'd have to treat Irish citizens the same way as UK citizens under the 1920s treaty? And all EU citizens the same under the more modern treaties?
I don't even know where to start with that one. Life is competition.
Again, what a terribly sad world view. I run a business and I am perfectly happy 'competing' in that environment but the idea that everything in life should revolve around it is just pathetic.
Not sure it's money as such. More self respect. Looking after your family and giving them the best you can.
You mean 'status' - might as well come out and say it.
I run a business and I am perfectly happy 'competing' in that environment but the idea that everything in life should revolve around it is just pathetic.
You can't separate work from life. Work is what underpins your whole life.
You mean 'status' - might as well come out and say it.
No, I don't mean status at all. Status is tied into a lack of mobility.
I doubt Polish academics and engineers who came here and became cleaners did it for status. They did it to give their families opportunities.
Jesus Christ.. I call troll or fruitcake
You can't separate work from life. Work is what underpins your whole life.
When you go on holiday, are you still 'competing'?
There's a lot of BS talked about people doing stuff for their families' sake - best thing most people can do for their family is raise them not to be grasping and materialistic and spend some quality time with them - not spend every evening and weekend at work so they can afford a shinier car.
When you go on holiday, are you still 'competing'?
Where did the money for the holiday come from ?
There's a lot of BS talked about people doing stuff for their families' sake - best thing most people can do for their family is raise them not to be grasping and materialistic and spend some quality time with them - not spend every evenin and weekend at work so they can afford a shinier car.
You think the Poles and Indians that have moved here to work have come so they can have a shiny car?
I think it's a bit deeper than that.
Life is competition
I think you will find it is cooperation - I assume you cooperate with your family rather than compete with them?
All we need to do is to get you to extend this principle further
Its eoither that or me and a few good ole boys will come round your house and out compete you with violence and take what we want as all life if competition and morals are for losers not winners
Work is what underpins your whole life
Das arbeit macht frei 😯
Wow it takes all sorts
I think you will find it is cooperation - I assume you cooperate with your family rather than compete with them?
Really? Do you think immigrants are coming in search of cooperation?
No. They're coming to work. In short, take your job.
If you (not you personally, obviously) aren't prepared to move half-way around the country, never mind half-way around the world you will lose your job to an immigrant.
Good for them. They deserve your job (again not your job personally).
to repeat do you cooperate with your family or do you compete with them?
to repeat do you cooperate with your family or do you compete with them?
An odd question as I'm arguing that people compete and are mobile to provide opportunities for their families. The family is the unit, not the individual.
So be realistic and [b]accept it as a trivial cost[/b] that allows us to make a colossal profit. Or, alternatively, demand even more restrictions on student visas which will put even more paying visitors off coming to the UK.
@Northwind - this I will not do.
Immigration is a massive issue not just in the UK but throughout the developed and richer european nations. What is clear is that the status quo is not sustainable. This will be a major issue at the next election.
Where did the money for the holiday come from ?
In my case some of it came from my business where I am 'competing' - some of it came from a job working for a charity which is about the exact opposite of competing - community spirit and cohesion.
And you don't need to spend loads of money to have a great holiday.
No. They're coming to work. In short, take your job.If you (not you personally, obviously) aren't prepared to move half-way around the country, never mind half-way around the world you will lose your job to an immigrant.
Yet again, what a desperately bleak, sad way of looking at the world.
What is clear is that the status quo is not sustainable.
Claptrap. Evidence?
If it weren't for immigrants, Britain would have very bland and boring food.
Co-operate / compete ? I think the reality lies somewhere in between, there are elements of both. We all have different skills and aptitudes, some are better rewarded than others. A long time ago a farmer with better skills eat better so his family prospered. This concept isn't new.
Really? Do you think immigrants are coming in search of cooperation?
No. They're coming to work. In short, take your job.
DUK URR DURR!
is it odd because the answer is you co operate with them and you dont want to say that as it shows that "life is competition" is not universally true.
Your free to disagree but you do get it.
As I said we simply need to get you to extend the cooperation from your family "unit" to the "unit" of humanity as not true that ALL life is competition.
Claptrap. Evidence?
The fact we are having this debate and the amount of time politicians are devoting to it. Immigration policy will change, the recent trend of ever loosening rules will be reversed.
jambalaya - Member
What is clear is that the status quo is not sustainable.
Well that's that cleared up. As long as you say so.
jambalaya - Member
the recent trend of ever loosening rules
Such as?
Immigration is a massive issue not just in the UK but throughout the developed and richer european nations. What is clear is that the status quo is not sustainable. This will be a major issue at the next election.
You're almost certainly right, the current limits on immigration will prove unsustainable as the population ages.
no its true because we are debating it - the fact we are saying its not true is irrelevant .......you cannot beat logic like that now can you
