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there was a program on over christmas that remembered the recent fallen.
i made a point of watching is all even though it made me cry like a baby begining to end. it was so very sad.
And therein lies the point Ernie - what exactly was the direct threat to UK residents in:
1990 Kuwait
1982 South Atlantic
1950 Korea
1942 Burma
1939 Poland
1914 France
All these wars had underlying reasons and motives that had nothing to do with directly protecting the people of the United Kingdom - In no way am I a supporter of the lies told to justify the invasion of Iraq, however saying that they didn't die for [b]you[/b] is simplistic and irrelevant
[i][b]" Our brave men and women risk injury and death while our government continues an unjust war for political ends. We say quite simply this is wrong.
Military families accept that there can be fatalities. Our argument is that this war was not sanctioned by the United Nations and troops have been injured or killed whilst on active service and not protecting their country from the threat of invasion or attack for which they took their Oath of Allegiance. "[/b][/i]
[b]not protecting their country from the threat of invasion or attack for which they took their Oath of Allegiance[/b]
But thats not the Oath:
[i]I swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, her heirs and successors and that I will as in duty bound honestly and faithfully defend Her Majesty, her heirs and successors in person, crown and dignity against all enemies and will [u]observe and obey all orders of Her Majesty, her heirs and successors and of the generals and officers set over me[/u][/i]
And as I say to you, the same argument applies to pretty much every campaign since the Napoleonic war, that they died not to protect the realm or its citizens, but as pawns in a global game of Realpolitik over political ideology, money and resources. War is simply an extension of politics by other means.
You best give your wisdom to the families of British soldiers who died in Iraq Zulu-Eleven.
Tell them that whatever reasons politicians might give for going to war, it's [i]always[/i] justifiable - whether or not the war is legal. Never ever suggest that politicians are wrong, and that the soldiers didn't die for Britain.
I'm sure that it will make then feel a whole lot better when you explain it all to them. Here is how to contact them :
[url] http://www.mfaw.org.uk/index.php?option=com_contact&catid=12&Itemid=3 [/url]
But the argument is with the politicians that sent them there, not the troops that died in service of their country having taken the queens shilling, they died for [b]you[/b] and they died for [b]your country[/b] in just the same way that all the others that have passed before them and all the others that tragically and inevitably will!
Thats the way it works, you realise that you take them as a whole, as once you start distinguishing and saying that they didn't die for [b]you[/b] then you cant stop, the logical extension of your argument results in you mourning the spitfire pilots, but not the pilots who bombed Dresden (a war crime?) - you mourn the troops who died in the fields of France, but not the North African desert, you pick and choose the campaign you agree with and you castigate the rest, who by no choice of their own die in a minefield in Bosnia rather than fighting the Soviet armored column they spent their whole career waiting for but never came.
you mourn the troops who died in the fields of France, but not the North African desert
What are you - a complete ****wit ? Don't ****ing tell me that I don't mourn the troops who have died in Iraq - did you read my post ?
Oh dear - this thread has degenerated into personal abuse already
I would have some sympathy if they were conscripted. But they took a job like all of us do.
this thread has degenerated into personal abuse already
Already ? This thread was 3 days old before Zulu-Eleven decided to make his moronic statements suggesting that someone who had said, quote :
"[i]Indeed very brave young men and women. And without any doubt it's all a sad and tragic loss of life.
Yes, we owe them all so much respect.[/i]"
Was not in fact 'mourning' the loss of life and was instead 'castigating' the soldiers.
And claiming that, quote :
"[i]the argument is with the politicians that sent them there, not the troops that died[/i]"
Even though [b][u]that is exactly[/u][/b] what I ****ing said. And was the [u][b]whole point[/b][/u] of my post.
It is as valid today to remember, as we pay our respect that those young men and women who have died in Iraq, how they were cynically used to satisfy the personal ambitions of a politician with his own agenda, as it is valid when we pay our respect to the Glorious Dead on Remembrance Sunday, to remember [i]and never forget[/i] how young men in the prime of their lives, were cynically and senselessly used as cannon fodder by ambitious and callous generals, also with their own agendas.
No one would argue (except maybe Zulu-Eleven) that the final episode of Black Adder, which was quite possibly one of the most poignant and moving moments in recent broadcasting history, was showing a lack of respect by reminding everyone of the tragic, appalling and senseless loss of life of so many young men.
Yes uplink it is a highly emotive subject and not least for me, as I did what I could in the run up to the Iraqi War to show my opposition to the inevitable and senseless carnage - which was also undoubtedly going to affect young British military personnel. Including, attending the largest peace-time demonstration in British history. What were [i]you[/i] doing Zulu-Eleven ?
Ernie - the comment I took exception to, and its more than clear above thats what I took exception to - was that of:
[i]But let's get this absolutely straight ....... they didn't die for[b] me.[/b][/i]
Well, they did, they died from decisions made by your government, you may want to distance yourself from those decisions, but they still died for [b]you[/b]
Tell you what Ernie - who did you vote for in the last three elections? Because if you voted Labour before or after 2003 then [b]you[/b] are responsible!
It is the Soldier,
not the reporter, who has given us freedom of press.
It is the Soldier,
not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech.
It is the Soldier,
not the campus organiser, who gives us freedom to demonstrate.
It is the Soldier
who salutes the flag,
who serves beneath the flag,
and whose coffin is draped by the flag,
who allows the protester to burn the flag.
TO ALL THOSE WHO ARE SERVIN FOR US!! NOT THE COUNTRY!!
It is the Soldier,
not the reporter, who has given us freedom of press.It is the Soldier,
not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech.It is the Soldier,
not the campus organiser, who gives us freedom to demonstrate.
I wonder if there's any evidence at all for this remarkable assertion ?
simon, do please f*ck the f*ck off.
I'm with Simon; soldiers, for all their selflessness, for all their sacrifice and bravery do what they are told, whether that is right or wrong.
To suggest that they are instrumental in actively securing the freedoms of society is, perhaps, going too far.
To suggest that they are instrumental in actively securing the freedoms of society is, perhaps, going too far.
[b]
1914-1918
1939-1945 [/b]
Now, do f*ck off.
Oh, I see your point. Very well argued.... 🙄
simon and crikey i some how cant imagine either one of you would have any where near the bravery that those men and women have.
easy to say what your saying whilst sitting at home isnt it
simon and crikey i some how cant imagine either one of you would have any where near the bravery that those men and women have.
I totally agree, but being brave does not make one a defender of freedom, and I think many soldiers etc have contempt for civilians
1914-1918
1939-1945
but those were fought by conscripts ie ordinary people
To suggest that they are instrumental in actively securing the freedoms of society is, perhaps, going too far.
Are you telling me that the thousands of men who regularly flew missions with Bomber Command during WW2, where the chances of survival was around 50/50 did so only because they were told to?
Can you even begin to imagine what it must have been like to know there was a very good chance you'd be killed tonight? I can't
but those were fought by conscripts ie ordinary people
Exactly how many soldiers of WW1 do you think were conscripts?
1,000,000 men volunteered in the 2nd half of 1914 alone
I'm not, and I suspect Simon is not, questioning the bravery and dedication of anyone in the Armed Forces. I have relatives who served and are serving still.
I am questioning the idea that members of the Armed Forces have acted in a way to obtain the freedoms described above.
I'm certain that they have an important role in protecting those freedoms, but as I said, that is intrinsically linked with the wishes of the Government of the day.
Take a wider, less UK-focused view, of armies; think of the number of times they have been involved in the suppression of exactly those rights and freedoms.
Then tell me why it could never happen here...
Everyone in the Forces has my greatest respect and gratitude, but social reformers they are not.
Simon
No they weren't
Conscription was not introduced till 1916, we fought for two years entirely with a volunteer army.
as for WW2, the core of the British army was expanded from the standing volunteer army, and hundreds of thousands of volunteers from all over the Empire joined at the outbreak of hostilities.
a few years ago i decided to go to Calais and see where a relative was buried, Sangatte is only a small cemetery, only 1350.
The abiding memory is what was the f***ing point. So many dead and yet within 25 years it would start again. To be honest it never stops. Humanities single greatest achievement is killing. Our greatest developments have been in time of war.
Deep down we don't remember, we never stop to think why, war is always a game played by politicians using real peoples lives as cannon fodder. It is about prestige and power. Always has been always will be. It is sad that real people are sacrificed to the ego of others.
[b]TOMMY[/b]
I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, 'We serve no red-coats 'ere.'
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed and giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again, an' to myself sez I:
Oh, it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' 'Tommy, go away':
But it's 'Thank you, Mister Atkins,' when the band begins to play -
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
Oh, it's 'Thank you, Mister Atkins,' when the band begins to play.
I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' 'Tommy, wait outside';
But it's 'Special train for Atkins' when the trooper's on the tide -
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
Oh, it's 'Special train for Atkins' when the trooper's on the tide.
Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' 'Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?'
But it's 'Thin red line of 'eroes' when the drums begin to roll -
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
Oh, it's 'Thin red line of 'eroes when the drums begin to roll.
We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that , an' 'Tommy, fall be'ind,'
But it's 'Please to walk in front, sir,' when there's trouble in the wind -
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
Oh, it's 'Please to walk in front, sir,' when there's trouble in the wind.
You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' 'Chuck him out, the brute!'
But it's 'Saviour of 'is country' when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!
Written by Rudyard Kipling in 1890 everything changes but it remains the same
1,000,000 men volunteered in the 2nd half of 1914 alone
OK, I stand corrected, but still ordinary people, not professional soldiers
What were you doing Zulu-Eleven ?
I doubt very much, that Labby was out on the streets of London, protesting against his hated New Labour's plans to invade Iraq, as he totally disagrees with any form of public protest, or civilians exercising their democratic right to free speech in a public place. So, he woon't have been opposing the planned invasion in any public manner. Probbly too busy watching afternoon TV.
It is the Soldier,
not the reporter, who has given us freedom of press.
Right, ok, because the soldier sends us images and reports of what's actually going on, on the front line...
To compare the wars of 1914-18, and 1936-44, with more recent conflicts, is wrong. CFH; lay off SFB. He is expressing his onions, and has some valid points. You're letting yourself down.
Don't fool yourselves, that soldiers are dying for this country, for you and me, for 'freedom' and 'democracy'. Since the invasion of Iraq, this country has seen more erosion of freedoms and civil liberties, than praps at any other time in this countries recent history.
and hundreds of thousands of volunteers from all over the Empire joined at the outbreak of hostilities.
You mean, hundreds of thousands of people from occupied countries were more more less press-ganged into joining up? Many, because resisting would have had dire consequences on themselves and their families and communities? You're telling me, that all those in the Indian, Far Eastern and African regiments willingly agreed to sign up to defend a nation who were their oppressors?
And how long did it take, for Britain to publicly recognise the sacrifice many of these people made, for this nation? Gurkhas, anyone?
Always a bigger picture...
As for bravery; I dare say, in a situation of life or death, many people on here would be forced into acts of desperation; some may risk their own lives, to protect others. To say that soldiers who are sent to fight in some far away land, are 'braver' than yer average citizen, is disrespectful to those who simply choose not to be involved in war.
lay off SFB
no, if you think I'm wrong, say so!
No, I meant for CFH to lay off you!
So sad, that so many innocents die, at the whim of megalomaniac despots...
Ernie - the comment I took exception to, and its more than clear
It's more than clear is that despite all evidence to the contrary, you accused me of 'not mourning' those who have died in Iraq. You also accused me of attempting to 'castigating' them. I find both suggestions particularly offensive and insulting.
You also suggest [i]to me[/i] that "the argument is with the politicians that sent them there, not the troops that died" which I find truly ridiculous as, that is [i]precisely[/i] what I have repeatedly said on this thread.
And you can repeat as much as you like your absurd claim that they 'died for me' but you cannot change the facts. The facts which are, they were not defending me from the Iraqis, I was not being threatened by the Iraqis, I did not ask or want them to be sent to Iraq, nothing which they were doing in Iraq at the time of their tragic deaths has in anyway enhanced my life, had they not been sent to Iraq I would not be disadvantaged today.
Furthermore no soldier who dies whilst engaged in illegal activities such as an illegal war, dies for me. In the same way as those soldiers who died illegally in the Deepcut Barracks did not die for me.
No Zulu-Eleven, those service men and women who tragically died in Iraq did not die for me. Although I'm sure that Tony Blair would be hugely impressed by your stubborn determination to suggest otherwise.
Fred - thing is, I didn't vote for the shower of shite that committed us to it!
Is your conscience clear?
[i]disagrees with any form of public protest, or civilians exercising their democratic right to free speech in a public place. So, he woon't have been opposing the planned invasion in any public manner. Probbly too busy watching afternoon TV.[/i]
Actually, if you look back on what I said on that subject, I made it clear that people have right to protest in an organised, peaceful manner - but whining little harpies don't have a right to freak out when put in their place.
Actually, when the War protests were happening I was doing something called work, In fact, if I remember rightly, I was testing Relenza at the time, doing something that might do some good for society rather than dancing up and down in the streets shouting down with Tony.
Ernie - read again what I said - it specifically included the words [i]the logical extension of your argument results in[/i]...
You see, your denial that they died for you on the basis that [i]they were not defending me from the Iraqis, I was not being threatened by the Iraqis[/i] Applies just the same if applied to other military campaigns - The Japanese were not threatening anyone in the UK, The Germans were not threatening anyone in the UK in 1939 when they invaded Poland, Noone in Britain was under threat from the Bosnian Serbs, the Argentinian marines, the German army in 1914 - but you don't get to choose the campaigns that you fight for, nor the place you die - as such they still died in service of your country and therefore they died for you, you cannot pick and choose.
as for illegal war? Sorry, I cannot see any proof that the war was illegal, much as I didnt like it - show me the convictions...
No, I meant for CFH to lay off you!
yes I know. I [b]can[/b] read 🙂 I meant CFH is free to criticise me if he wishes, and vice versa.
[i]Hopefully the thread will remain repectful. Those wishing to comment on the politics of the situation can easily start a new thread.[/i]
Never was going to happen.
I didn't vote for the shower of shite that committed us to it!
If you vote for someone it doesn't make you responsible for their actions
Forgotten sons
RIP
I was testing Relenza at the time
Ah, like Tamiflu; a drug which merely shortens the duration of 'flu. Hardly a 'miracle cure'.
Warnings* Relenza may cause serious breathing problems in people with chronic lung diseases such as asthma.
* Some people, mostly children and adolescents, who have the flu and are taking Relenza have had serious psychological or neurological side effects. These may include confusion, anxiety, seizures, hallucinations or even suicide. If your child who is taking Relenza starts behaving abnormally, notify his healthcare provider immediately.Side Effects
Some common side effects of Relenza include:
* Dizziness
* Irritation of the Nose
* Joint painIf these symptoms become irritating or do not go away, contact your healthcare provider.
More serious side effects of Relenza include:
* Difficulty breathing
* Wheezing
* Shortness of breath
* Hives
* Rash
* Itching
* Difficulty Swallowing
* Hoarseness
* Swelling of the face, throat, tongue, lips, eyes, hands, feet, ankles or lower legsIf you experience any of these symptoms while taking Relenza, seek medical attention immediately.
Blimey. Think I'd rather have 'flu, if it's all the same... 😯
And I din't vote for a government whose leader led this nation into war; I voted for someone who I believed would best represent the needs of my local community, in the House of Commons.
And then you voted them back in Fred? Despite the fact that your representative voted for and committed our nation to an "illegal" war?
(ps. Relenza and Tamiflu are different, thats why one's called Relenza, and the other ones called Tamiflu... The point if the drg isnt to reduce the duration of the Flu, it suppresses your susceptibility to infection if taken in the early stages or prior to infection )
Did I say, who I voted for? Why would you assume I voted for one party over another?
You dunalf talk some rubbish, you.
Ok Fred - nice and simple - did the person you voted for oppose the war?
The Germans were not threatening anyone in the UK in 1939 when they invaded Poland
Sorry to pick this one up, but clearly you are mistaken. Lots of people saw Germany as a very real threat years before that, hence the policy of appeasement.
I was testing Relenza at the time
You need to get your employer to allow you the occasional Saturday off.
Still, I'm sure that the families of dead servicemen who have died in Iraq would be glad to hear that you had a good excuse for not opposing the war.
Exactly how many simultaneous logins do you need?
It was a simple request wasn't it mmm ? Keep the politics elsewhere.
Just pay respect to those who have given their lives.
And you dickheads can't even manage that.
SHAME.
Well put, blu-tone, thanks.