[Closed] Pork DNA found in halal chicken sausages...

thx1138 - Member
So their suffering was within the limits of what you consider acceptable then? Why didn't you say so before - that makes it all ok.
Personally, yes. A quick, deep cut to the jugular and it's all over in a matter of seconds.

Killing of animals in the halal way is vile and abhorrent. How we, as modern country allow this to happen is beyond me. It should be banned immediately
Some interesting reading for you sensitive souls:

LAWGAZETTE.CO.UK "http://www.lawgazette.co.uk/files/Animal_Welfare_0.pdf"

Hopefully this will allay some of your fears and unfounded prejudices.

Anyone who supports this ask yourself one question. If you were to be killed right now and you had a choice of your neck being slit or a single shot to the head, what would you choose and why?
What if a gun and bullet isn't available?

Your argument is essentially, "this method of torturing animals is better than that method of torturing animals"; mine is "hey, how about not torturing them at all?"
I'm talking about killing animals for food, not 'torturing' them. have a read up on the definition of 'torture'.

The teddy's name is 'Pedro' - Now what? I know you're a bit busy making a fool of yourself but answer the question... 😆

as I'm aware Halal has no specific protection in UK law

He's on about Sharia, which as far as I am aware *just checked and I'm correct* isn't enforced or even recognised in the UK, therefore I've taken the liberty of putting his comment down to a symptom of the rabies he seems to be suffering from.

might be that I'd look to move to a Buddhist country if meat consumption suddenly became mandatory by law in all the others.

Anyone my broader point is folk keep aspects of their culture when they move be it brits having roast beef and reading the sun in Spain

My ciabatta is actually bressaola, not prosciutto as I'd specified. 😐 Now, where's that stuffed toy animal..

I can't find a link but a few years ago the RCVS made an observational study of slaughterhouse practices - they found that something like 15% of cows tried to get back up on their feet after their throats were slit for halal slaughter - because of veins on the back of the neck on cows it can take several minutes for them to die using that method.

I'd be interested in seeing that actually. Is it the result of a study of all slaughterhouses using Kosher and Halal slaughtering methods, a sample, or just one?

For me that's enough to never eat halal food and boycott places that places that sell / serve halal meat without being honest about it - Waitrose, Whitbread, KFC, Subway and others no longer get my custom.

If they're not being honest about it, how do you know they sell Halal food? 😕

Law and culture has evolved similarly. If you don't like those laws, you lobby for reform, you don't seek an exclusion clause.

You are aware of course that the practice Kosher slaughter at least, in the UK, predates parliament? As Jews have been around here for rather a long time. And even Halal slaughter has probably been carried out here before animal welfare laws were written up. I am unaware that Jews and Muslims have sought any 'exclusion clauses' for their preferred method of slaughter.

I guess I don't really get why you'd choose to live somewhere which is incompatible with your world view

So why do you continue to live in a country that permits the Halal and Kosher methods of slaughter then? 😕

I don't think I'm being smart. I think I'm having an interesting discussion

This is excellent! 😀

Anyone my broader point is folk keep aspects of their culture when they move be it brits having roast beef and reading the sun in Spain

Yes, but very often some aspects of other peoples culture are agreed to be incompatible with the country they move to.

A bit like Brits being arrested for shagging on Dubai beaches.

I think sex in public is illegal here as well but I get your broader point.

I'm wondering how long it takes before the pic of Blair and Bush Jr. gets posted...

Shouldn't be too long teethgrinder. 😉

Yes, but very often some aspects of other peoples culture are agreed to be incompatible with the country they move to.

In what way is Halal and Kosher slaughter 'incompatible' with the UK?

my broader point is folk keep aspects of their culture when they move be it brits having roast beef and reading the sun in Spain

... which is what I was meaning. I don't get it. Food's tricky for me for reasons you're well familiar with, but that exception aside if I was that desperate to read the Sun over a pint of dog, I'd save my money and holiday in Devon or something.

So why do you continue to live in a country that permits the Halal and Kosher methods of slaughter then?

Last I checked it's not mandatory. I'm vegetarian, I can live in a country that permits halal in the same way as I can live in one that permits football. I don't particularly like it, but it doesn't impact any of my lifestyle choices.

You are aware of course that the practice Kosher slaughter at least, in the UK, predates parliament? As Jews have been around here for rather a long time. And even Halal slaughter has probably been carried out here before animal welfare laws were written up. I am unaware that Jews and Muslims have sought any 'exclusion clauses' for their preferred method of slaughter.

Burning people at the stake existed before parliament. We have now found a more humane method and it's illegal to burn people to death anymore.

In what way is Halal and Kosher slaughter 'incompatible' with the UK?

In the same way that forced marriages, female circumcision and stoning people for adultery are!

The teddy's name is 'Pedro' - Now what? I know you're a bit busy making a fool of yourself but answer the question...

🙄

I'm too busy 'making a fool of myself' to respond to your nonsense I'm afraid. Sorry about that. I just didn't consider it important enough to warrant the effort required to do so. Obviously the same as how you treated my question of you.

Last I checked it's not mandatory. I'm vegetarian, I can live in a country that permits halal in the same way as I can live in one that permits football. I don't particularly like it, but it doesn't impact any of my lifestyle choices.

So, what's your point then?

😆

I just didn't consider it important enough to warrant the effort required to do so.

My ciabatta is actually bressaola, not prosciutto as I'd specified. Now, where's that stuffed toy animal..

hello elfinsafety 🙂

In the same way that forced marriages, female circumcision and stoning people for adultery are!

None of these things are legal in the UK. So I'm not sure quite why you've mentioned them at all.

So, again:

In what way is Halal and Kosher slaughter 'incompatible' with the UK?

[i]"Around 90% of Halal slaughter involved pre-stunning"[/i]

http://www.rspca.org.uk/servlet/Satellite?blobcol=urlblob&blobheader=application/pdf&blobkey=id&blobtable=RSPCABlob&blobwhere=1109267162636&ssbinary=true

That link is very interesting THX,

Effectiveness of the Stunning technique

There is empirical evidence shows the butchering of animals after stunning may not necessarily reduce pain or suffering. The scientific community has also produced evidence there is a strong prospect of brain tissue contamination in the consumption of meat that has been killed after post stunning. It is part of the growing consensus that the stunning method may not be as watertight in preventing the pain to animals and risk free diet to humans.

…

Laboratory testing of sub conscience animals

The results were laboratory tested and showed that the claim that the Capital Bolt Pistol stunning method was least painful was not factual. Their findings were as follows:

Slaughtering with a sharp knife:

1. [b]The first three seconds from the time of the slaughter (in the Islamic Method)[/b] as recorded in the EEG did not show any change from the graph before slaughter, thus [b]indicating that the animal did not feel any recognisable pain during or after the incision.[/b]

2. [b]During the following three seconds, the EEG recorded a condition of deeps-sleep-unconsciousness.[/b] This is due to the large quantity of blood gushing out of the body. The sudden and profuse bleeding from the incision on the neck causes a shock resulting in a state of unconsciousness due to severe shortage of blood supply to the vital centres located in the brain,

3. [b]After the above mentioned six seconds, the EEG recorded zero level, showing no feeling of pain at all.[/b]

4. As the brain message (EEG) dropped to zero level, the heart was still pounding and the body convulsing vigorously (a reflex action of the spinal chord) driving out maximum bloody from the body, thus resulting in hygienic meat for the consumers.

So, what's your point then?

Point? I was answering your question. Is "discussion" such an alien concept to you?

Wow. Just wow.
[img] [/img]

Point? I was answering your question. Is "discussion" such an alien concept to you?

The concept of discussion is not alien to me, no. Your point of stating "I guess I don't really get why you'd choose to live somewhere which is incompatible with your world view" is though, as I'm wondering to whom you are referring there.

That link is very interesting THX,

What, you mean the study which used scientific methods to try to discover the truth, rather than unfounded prejudice and ignorance opinion? 😉

Pt2:

Captive Bolt Pistol (CBP) Stunning Method:

1. The animals were apparently unconscious soon after stunning.
2. But EEG showed severe pain after stunning.
3. The hearts of animals stunned by CBP stopped beating earlier as compared to those slaughtered by the Islamic method, resulting in the retention of more blood in the meat. This in turn is unhygienic for the consumer.

[b]The findings testified to the fact that the slaughter of an animal with a sharp blade is the least painful of the two methods of killing.[/b]

The concept of discussion is not alien to me, no. Your point of stating "I guess I don't really get why you'd choose to live somewhere which is incompatible with your world view" is though, as I'm wondering to whom you are referring there.

People who choose to live somewhere which is incompatible with their world view?

People who choose to live somewhere which is incompatible with their world view?

And who are they?

robdixon - Member
I can't find a link [b][handy][/b] but a few years ago the RCVS made an observational study of slaughterhouse practices - they found that something like 15% of cows tried to get back up on their feet after their throats were slit for halal slaughter - because of veins on the back of the neck on cows it can take several minutes for them to die using that method.

For me that's enough to never eat halal food and boycott places that places that sell / serve halal meat without being honest about it - Waitrose, Whitbread, KFC, Subway and others no longer get my custom

What about the study in the link THX posted which shows, after monitoring brain activity during slaughter, that the 'Islamic Method' is both less painful and more hygenic that the stunning method?

if they're unconscious, are they aware of the pain... just because the EEG picked up signals doesn't mean the animal is aware surely?

Is "discussion" such an alien concept to you?

PHIL without your earlier link re the "animal" talking woman i would not have believed what you were saying

wonder how far I'd get drinking communion wine in Saudi?

1st) 2 wrongs don't make a right

2nd) You can drink in some of the hotels, so maybe.

3rd) Before spouting off, think it through, the divinity of Mr J Christ is in each of the bread and wine, it's not actualy nececary to take both, ergo no restriction on your faith.

it was an excellent documentary junky! well worth trying to obtain a copy 🙂

if they're unconscious, are they aware of the pain... just because the EEG picked up signals doesn't mean the animal is aware surely?

True, but then you've got to prove the negative, there's no proof it's not pain, whereas the islamic method had proof there was no bain activity (and therefore presumably no pain?). Thats how i read it anyway.

If all the evidence points to Halal slaughter being less less-humane than stunning would everybody who's objected to Halal on welfare grounds in this thread start eating it?

wonder how far I'd get drinking communion wine in Saudi?

Lifer - Member

If all the evidence points to Halal slaughter being less less-humane than stunning would everybody who's objected to Halal on welfare grounds in this thread start eating it?

I'm assuming that is a typo...

But if all the evidence did point to it being more humane then yes - I for one would change my view. However given that a single study from 1978 inconclusively suggests it might be less painful and only when administered properly - I'm sticking with my view that it causes suffering - and that suffering is unnecessary...

I'm too busy 'making a fool of myself' to respond to your nonsense I'm afraid

You have responded^^^

I'm too busy 'making a fool of myself'

It's never usually too late to try and redeem yourself, I say [i]usually[/i] as in this case you're about 7 posts too late.

Good work. 😉

I'm sticking with my view that it causes suffering - and that suffering is unnecessary...

But if all the evidence did point to it being more humane then yes - I for one would change my view. However given that a single study from 1978 inconclusively suggests it might be less painful and only when administered properly - I'm sticking with my view that it causes suffering - and that suffering is unnecessary...

Great. More healthier, more humane Halal and Kosher meat for those of us that do want to continue eating it. Feel free to provide scientific evidence that it's less humane though, please.

You have responded^^^

Oh do shut up. You've provided nothing of any value to this thread, other than creating it. And I suspect that was only to have a veiled pop at something/cultures you are ignorant of and prejudiced towards. Probably because you lack the balls to actually come out and say exactly what you mean. If you wish to discuss things like an adult, like Cougar and others have (and I must say, Cougar has provided an excellent counter perspective), then do so. Otherwise, shut up and go and find something else to do, if intelligent debate is beyond you.

Anyway, folks; I must be away. I have to collect a Kosher chicken (we have guests this weekend), and Shabbos is almost upon us. Plus my wife would kill me if she found out the reason I didn't get any smoked salmon was because I was debating on the internet. 😆

Anyone who supports this ask yourself one question. If you were to be killed right now and you had a choice of your neck being slit or a single shot to the head, what would you choose and why?

This^^

A close friend who works in animal welfare (actual science not loony animal rights rubbish) was in a slaughterhouse in Germany where pigs were gassed and then had their throats slit to bleed out. After lunch they forgot to turn the gas back on and the pigs had their throats cut whilst conscious, apparently it was totally horrific, with them screaming and panicking as they bled, and that's coming from someone who's been in a lot of slaughter houses around the world. Probably happens quite a lot as well as in halal slaughter houses.

thx1138 - Member
Oh do shut up. You've provided nothing of any value to this thread, other than creating it. And I suspect that was only to have a veiled pop at something/cultures you are ignorant of and prejudiced towards. Probably because you lack the balls to actually come out and say exactly what you mean

I think you're right, especially regarding his reference to Sharia law when you were talking about exemptions from EU law...

That link is very interesting THX,

Heh, so Halal could potentially lead to fewer cases of vCJD then?

Gassing sounds like a good idea on the face of it.

bigjim - Member

Anyone who supports this ask yourself one question. If you were to be killed right now and you had a choice of your neck being slit or a single shot to the head, what would you choose and why?

Well as the only bit of scientific evidence I've read on the subject says that the knife it least painful and less likely to contaminate the rest of my succulent meats with my own brain matter (as it's for human consumption) I'll go for the big knife.

If evidence is provided to the contrary (and not 'Some chap said it's really bad') I'm more than willing to re-consider.

The Governments advisory body, the Farm Animal Welfare Council, looked at all available evidence in 2003 and concluded that the method of killing without pre-stunning caused 'significant sensory pain and distress until insensibility intervenes'. They go on to say that this period of time (again with all evidence available in 2003) was 5 to 7 seconds for sheep, 22-40 seconds for adult cattle and up to 120 seconds for calves (that's quite a long time to be bleeding and conscious).

It's report also notes that most religious bodies now accept pre-stunning and only around 10% of all halal and kosher meat is not pre-stunned.

It recommended that non-stunned killing exemptions should be repealed in UK law but the Government declined to accept it's advice.

If all the evidence points to Halal slaughter being less less-humane than stunning would everybody who's objected to Halal on welfare grounds in this thread start eating it?

all the evidence points to Halal slaughter being less less-humane

TBH I am too busy deciding whether I would rather be waterboarded or have to endure stress positions and loud music to work this out...can i get back to you once I work out which of those is most humane?

Oh do shut up.

Sir yes sir 😆

ignorant of and prejudiced towards.

No I have experience of muslims and Islam, how about you?

If you wish to discuss things like an adult

Oh yes we should all conduct ourselves like you. 😀

I mean

Oh do shut up.

If you wish to discuss things like an adult, like Cougar and others have (and I must say, Cougar has provided an excellent counter perspective),

You've been slating Cougar's (to name but one) discussion points throughout so it's a bit futile now trying to redeem yourself (again)by brown-nosing. As they say though, God loves a trier so you keep going.

Enjoy your Kosher products and just pray they are what they say on the packaging... 😉

Storm, tea cup. Whats the big deal? Its not as though they are pious, trustworthy people who tend to complain.

I think you're right, especially regarding his reference to Sharia law when you were talking about exemptions from EU law...

Well to be fair, that's not true. He referenced Sharia law in reference to thx asserting that selling non-halal food marked as halal is illegal, and my reply that AFAIK it wasn't legally protected in UK. We've yet to get a clarification from thx one way or the other as to what law (if any) he was referring to. Given fred only ever responds to cherry-picked questions he's confident he can pick apart, I suspect Patriotpro was correct.

It was nothing to do with exemptions, that was about the legality of halal butchery.

And I guess I should check, is that list bit correct? is it only for religious reasons that you're exempt from stunning?

I believe that the law specifically details permissible methods of slaughter within the EU (captive bolt, gassing, and, er, something else. Electrocution?). Halal butchery is not amongst these methods, but the law is waived for these groups. I'm less sure about Kosher, but I'd expect it's the same situation. To be fair, I'd have to look it up to be sure.

Putting my moderator hat on for a moment, I'd remind people that if they can't keep a civil tongue in their heads, they won't be allowed to play with nice toys. Less of the personal attacks please, or I'll get the hammer out.

Well as the only bit of scientific evidence I've read on the subject says that the knife it least painful and less likely to contaminate the rest of my succulent meats with my own brain matter (as it's for human consumption) I'll go for the big knife.

If evidence is provided to the contrary (and not 'Some chap said it's really bad') I'm more than willing to re-consider.

It wasn't my quote, but I'd say you need to read more than one bit of scientific evidence, and one might consider putting the welfare of animals over the incredibly slim chance of humans contracting something from brain juice.