[Closed] Politics and ideological / pragmatism balance

Should they be pragmatic and take a position that gives them policies that could potentially get them elected at the next election and with a view to then moving towards the direction they really believe in (eg the left for Labour) or should they stay true to their convictions even if that means they're unlikely to be elected for many years.

Who is labour? If you write down who you are it might help but then you could also be stuck in the past. A pragmatic party who takes the best from both sides and can attract support would work. Is it better to do what you can in government or achieve nothing in opposition?

When was the last real left wing labour government? Does that have enough support to get elected?

For me, that's part of labour's problem - their grass roots support is left wing in general but the leadership isn't (incidentally, I reckon you could to a lesser extent say the same about the conservatives - their support is probably more right wing than the leadership).

Who says a Left-wing Labour party couldn't win an election?

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See all those DNVs since Tony took the reigns?

or should they stay true to their convictions

You must be looking at a different Labour Party. I certainly don't see any convictions whatsoever. Thats the problem.

I do think that George Osbourne, clever bastard that he is, helped by the right wing press, has been unbelievably effective at, firstly, painting labour into a corner, and then presenting the Tories as the party of the centre.

In most peoples mind Labour are now the party that caused the financial crisis, and want to hand all your hard-earned money over to fat people in tracksuits, who will spend it on Lambert and Butler, Stella, weed, takeaways and Sky Sport subsciptions.

Whatever the labour party decides its going to be - because it doesn't seem to have a scooby at the moment - it needs to actually [url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/17/labour-story-leader-communication ]communicate it properly[/url]. Something Tony and Malcolm Tucker were notably good at

Are you saying that a majority of DNVs are going to vote left wing? the graph suggests that both cons and lab lost people to DNV - cons first (1992), then lab (1997).

You must be looking at a different Labour Party. I certainly don't see any convictions whatsoever.

Amongst the leadership, yes. I'd suggest that the grassroots do.

[quote=nemesis ]Are you saying that a majority of DNVs are going to vote left wing? the graph suggests that both cons and lab lost people to DNV - cons first (1992), then lab (1997).Or did the Cons switch to Labour and lots of old-style Labour voters became DNVs?

You must be looking at a different Labour Party. I certainly don't see any convictions whatsoever.

Amongst the leadership, yes. I'd suggest that the grassroots do.

Hence Jeremy Corbyn and potential electoral oblivion. Labour desperatly needs to sort its shit out, but a return to the 70's is most certainly not the way to do it.

What they're reaping now is actually Blairs fault. He hollowed out the party from the inside, apointing careerist yes men (and women) who just acted as unthinking drones to rubber stamp Tony's orders. The free-thinkers like Clair Short or Robin Cook were marginalised until they just gave up. All decisions were then taken by Tony's cabal, and issued as dictats. Any sign of democratic intent, or dissent was stamped on as treachery.

Thus we end up with a party utterly devoid of ideas, as none of them have ever had an original thought in their lives. They've just been doing what central office told them to do. Except now central office doesn't have a *ing clue what to tell them to do either.

So they're *ed, basically

Absolutely but that's the crux of my question - as I see it at least, you have candidates that will essentially follow the tory-lite strategy or Corbyn who won't. Assuming that I'm right and Corbyn's election would lead to years of Tory government, is Labour better to stick to it's roots (well, actually go back to them) with Corbyn or to go with the others in a more pragmatic way (though as I said, I reckon they're pretty crap and will probably continue like headless chickens along the tory-lite path rather than trying to gradually guide people to a more representative view of Britain than is out there at present).

Western economies + Japan + China are all in a massive crisis. Debt and ageing populations reducing ability to produce GDP and pay off that debt, whilst also increasing the cost of supporting that ageing (non-economically-productive) population...

In a crisis IMO ideology is not helpful, it reduces access to policies which may well be effective

We need a technocratic, non-political government in place for 5-10 years. Worked quite well for Italy with Mario Monti it seems. Look where ideology has got Greece in the last few weeks...

In some ways, Gideon's game-playing and stealing Labour-style policies has meant he's following a more centrist path than he might normally have done, which is a good thing.

However, it's not hard to find a photo of him looking Machiavellian so I suspect he's not doing this for any reason other than political gain...

They need to try and win back the 'blue collar' worker who are in the private sector. How they do that is tricky as they've allowed the Tories to take that ground. They need to start understand their concerns and I have a funny feeling they won't like the answers.

Eventually, the Tories' lie will be exposed. Currently, the right wing media is very much in control and helped the Tories into power by spreading lies about Labour's spending and fears about a labour election.

The financial crisis absolutely was not caused by reckless government spending, it was a global banking crisis, which required huge government spending to stop banks falling apart (and society as we know it with them).

Why Labour have decided not to highlight this is weird. They could point out all the brand new and re-built schools and hospitals they "wasted" money on (I know, PFI and all that). They could talk about what the Tories are doing to council tenants in London and talk about social housing stock, but silence...

The BBC can't help them, as it is currently too scared to say anything not sanctioned by the government.

I'm not sure whether they really are stupid or are waiting for all the proper cuts to kick in and wait for the Tories to split over Boris/Osborne/May for leader.

What it does show is that the media, if used correctly, can be very powerful indeed.

I'm not a labour supporter, by the way...

Has George really stolen Labour policies? He makes it sound like that I'll grant you (increasing minimum wage) but look at the detail (cutting tax credits out of sync with those increases) and it rarely seems to be the case.

Just realised that I haven't actually stated my own position - I'd go for pragmatism but with a clear plan to head back to the party's roots. Not that I'm a labour supporter but that'd be my tactical plan. And FWIW, that's what Tony B and Mandelson, etc had - a clear plan - regardless of whether you agree with it. I don't get any impression that Labour have that now.

Eventually, the Tories' lie will be exposed. Currently, the right wing media is very much in control and helped the Tories into power by spreading lies about Labour's spending and fears about a labour election

Hoping that your opponent sounds less appealing isn't a strategy unless you are Neil kinnock.
Policy, no stone tablets, ideas, engagement, address some of the tough issues, deal with the union influence and listen to the people in a non pr way. Provide an alternative that doesn't make people feel like it's a step backwards.

George Osborne did not steal policies, just language...

You need both in balance to be credible, imo if a party doesn't have a core ideology that it sticks to people wont believe in it and wont vote for it. If you don't have a clear practical plan people will not vote for your party.
Currently the Tories have both, Labour have neither. I am neither a Tory supporter nor a Labour supporter by the way.

In most peoples mind Labour are now the party that caused the financial crisis, and want to hand all your hard-earned money over to fat people in tracksuits, who will spend it on Lambert and Butler, Stella, weed, takeaways and Sky Sport subsciptions.

You forgot to mention all those money grabbing disabled people, living a life of Riley on disability benefits gravy train driving round housing estates in their gold plated wheel chairs.

What they're reaping now is actually Blairs fault. He hollowed out the party from the inside, apointing careerist yes men (and women) who just acted as unthinking drones to rubber stamp Tony's orders. The free-thinkers like Clair Short or Robin Cook were marginalised until they just gave up. All decisions were then taken by Tony's cabal, and issued as dictats. Any sign of democratic intent, or dissent was stamped on as treachery.

Yes, but that's also an effective way to win an election - total focus, everyone on message. You need discipline to win and he provided it.

The sad thing is labour dont really need to change that much, theyve just got to hold it together and wait for Tory sleaze to once again rear its head 😆
The Europe referendum could be a big problem for the Tories and exposes some of their basic contradictions; they are pro business and recognise the huge benefits of being in the EU and the necessity of immigration to support our ageing population, but they capitalise on EU scare stories and fear of swan eating Romanian pickpockets etc.
Thats not to say that dragon's blue collar workers arent justified in some of their fears, and the further huge cuts to local council funding etc will only magnify the inability of communities to cope with large immigrant numbers.
The move to the right by Blair etc helped Labour re-emerge as a modern party, they shifted to the right on education, policing, NHS etc which pleased the capitalist press barons no end. The financial crash gave them the opportunity to move back to their natural bedfellows and they took the electorate with them.
And the tories are joyfully cutting back the state, health, education police etc are all following the american model.
Osbornes shifts to the left arent really that radical, he is still dependent on the eternal housing boom and his minimum wage efforts are really just acknowledging that the bit of a mess of tax credits that sees so much befenits actually going to the blue collar types rather than the stella and tracky pant types (despite what the press/media tells us) has to end.

have to say, I'm f****** loving this

For the past five years we heard 'Labour need to go left' - we had Len McClusky saying that Miliband was the best leader since Foot

Where did it get them?

Every time labour loses it shouts 'turn left' and every time it does so it loses again!

So, what's going to happen after comrade Corbyn kicks the ball into the long grass again in 2020 (after an election campaign saying the Tories are definitley, really going to privatise the NHS if they win, just like the claimed said in every election since forever)?

Let me guess: 'Corbyn wasn't Left enough' 'it was all the fault of the right wing media' 'waaaaah, waaaah, not fair!'

'King laughable!

'Twenty four hours to save the NHS' they will cry, while the electorate looks on at five more years of navel gazing.

And us right wingers are loving it 😆

Maybe people are cleverer than we give them credit for. They saw Labour spending all that money on schools, NHS etc and were happy at the time, but times have changed and as people cut back their expenditure they expect the government too, knowing full well that the new schools etc Labour built are still there.

And us right wingers are loving it

I know just think of all the misery and suffering being heaped upon the poor, disabled and underprivileged, these are truly Golden Days for the selfish 😆

Theres a lot of truth in that Dragon

Labours job is to provide a viable alternative by the next election, by the time Osbournes slash and burn 40% cuts to public services are becoming a reality that people are unlikely to be enjoying very much.

Will they be able to do that? Not looking at the shambles they are at the moment, no

Every time labour loses it shouts 'turn left' and every time it does so it loses again!

You can replace left for right to describe the Tories during the Blair years.

The sad thing is labour dont really need to change that much, theyve just got to hold it together and wait for Tory sleaze to once again rear its head

Probably true but i could take 10+ years to get there. And as Labour showed in 1992 you still need a credible message to get elected on (or not as was their case).

That's right kimbers

It's like Kristallnacht all over again isn't it!

Tell you what, when civil servants in the job centre, who worked for years under a labour government and whose union makes it clear they should oppose reforms in the system, impose unofficial performance targets on issuing sanctions that don't exist, and discipline staff who don't meet them, but the whole thing is denied by their managers - do you think the government are behind that, or do you think that people are playing realpolitik with peoples lives to undermine a government policy?

Oooooooooo - I do love a good old nonsensical conspiracy theory. Unions undermining govenments too? Was this in a Daily Mail editorial?

Do go on.....

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Maybe people are cleverer than we give them credit for. They saw Labour spending all that money on schools, NHS etc and were happy at the time, but times have changed and as people cut back their expenditure they expect the government too, knowing full well that the new schools etc Labour built are still there.

The problem for ideology is the increasing habit on the part of the voter to vote for what suits them best [i]as an individual[/i] and not what fits their own personal ideology.
Voters can no longer be split into ideological groups, they are now a multitude of [i]demographics[/i]. Cue political parties trying to appeal to as many of these demographics as will get them elected, while screwing over the demographics who won't.
Political parties no longer represent democracy, they are basically an extension of the advertising industry, which claims to represent societies' conflicting self-interest.
John Nash may have died, but his ideas remain at the forefront of the political establishment.

And us right wingers are loving it

And it's statements like that which make right-wing politics look shallow, self-serving and uncaring.

You personally in that example are doing nothing to show that right-wing politics is meant to show a different way to achieve a fairer society with more equality - an alternative narrative to Labour but fundamentally still looking to achieve the best for all.

It's actually a common problem with a lot of the right-wing orientated people on the ground. They forget that the right-wing in the UK at least has not had a story of grinding people into the ground to serve an elite - but has been about how smaller government and private ownership can bring more jobs, improved opportunities and better services. A lot of the people I encounter with right-wing views think only of the low-tax, poor employment rights and easy cheap purchase of former government assets aka services and privatisation and what it can do for them and them only in the short-term and to hell with anyone else.

So much truth in that fin25.

You personally in that example are doing nothing to show that right-wing politics is meant to show a different way to achieve a fairer society with more equality - an alternative narrative to Labour but fundamentally still looking to achieve the best for all...
...It's actually a common problem with a lot of the right-wing orientated people on the ground. They forget that the right-wing in the UK at least has not had a story of grinding people into the ground to serve an elite - but has been about how smaller government and private ownership can bring more jobs, improved opportunities and better services.

T'was ever thus, but almost impossible to explain when people only heard the 'no such thing as society' and ignored (or were never told) the words around it - a trait that has continued to this very day with the preponderance of 'professionally outraged' - see Tim Hunt as a perfect victim of this.

Can I point out that this isn't a thread about the right and wrong of the policies but rather the strategy/tactics about where Labour go regardless of whether you think their policies are right or not.

So sod off to the many other threads on that subject if you want the usual left/right bicker 😉

I think this sums up the problem for Labour fairly nicely...

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can't post bloody videos[/url]

So sod off to the many other threads on that subject if you want the usual left/right bicker

Not really interested in the bickering today - was pointing out that ideals and method to achieve ideals are different things and that pragmatism can often be twisted as opportunism.

[quote=fin25 ]I think this sums up the problem for Labour fairly nicely...
Still can't post bloody videos

Ask a Lib Dem - there recent experience tells you all you need to know

cheers THM

Want a labour government? Persuade someone like me to vote for them.
First thing a labour government did was introduce tuition fees when I turned 18.

I think the state should provide for those that can't but those that can should help, people should be helped to do what they can not be defined by what they can't, business should survive by being good and taxes should work and encourage success. Loopholes should be closed.
Business and workers should work together and the public sector ditch the deadwood.

Pleasure - then ask the folks at Syriza or at least those who voted for them

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Cherie has really let herself go

@THM you should have used "their" there ^^^ my dear.

I think the state should provide for those that can't but those that can should help, people should be helped to do what they can not be defined by what they can't, business should survive by being good and taxes should work and encourage success. Loopholes should be closed.
Business and workers should work together and the public sector ditch the deadwood.

Too much common sense to work in most political systems...

I know, was waiting to be shot down for living outside the UK rather than talking sense...