[Closed] Our (level headed) MD saw a "ghost" last week!

No, not at all, i actually sequenced it properly and i got some results.

You determined the order of nucleotides within a DNA molecule using a toothpick and a magnifying glass? I'd assumed it was [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_sequencing#Basic_methods ]more complex than that[/url].

The problem here is that you ask for evidence, but you don't know what evidence looks like.

* Books moving, when other causes have been ruled out.
* A cat noise, inside a soundproofed room.

But we'd have to determine exactly what we were trying to prove first, wouldn't we?

Waiting to see what others think is not a scientifc approach,any more than believing in ghost cats because someone said they saw some.

It's not scientific to read the results published in a peer-reviewed journal and then try to recreate the results yourself? I'd say that is an integral part of the scientific process.

There's a [url= http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html ]million dollar prize[/url] (plus fame and more) available for anyone able to "show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event".

oops wrong thread 😳

Erm... Like exactly all the people who do precisely that?

Who are they ?

But we'd have to determine exactly what we were trying to prove first, wouldn't we?

You choose

Erm... Like exactly all the people who do precisely that?
Who are they ?

Seriously?

One Step Beyond (Alcoa Presents…) 1959-1961 Paranormal ABC
In Search Of… 1976–1982 Paranormal U.S. syndicated
Beyond Reason 1977-1980 Paranormal CBC (Canada)
Next Step Beyond (The) 1978-1979 Paranormal Syndicated
Arthur C. Clarke’s Mysterious World 1980 Paranormal U.K.
Arthur C. Clarke’s World of Strange Powers 1985 Paranormal A&E networks
Unsolved Mysteries 1987, 2001 Paranormal NBC, CBS
James Randi: Psychic Investigator 1991 Psychics U.K.
Haunted Lives/Real Ghosts 1991-1995
(mini-series [3 eps]) Ghosts CBS/UPN
Mysteries from Beyond the Other Dominion 1992-1993 Paranormal SyFy (SciFi)
Sightings 1992-1997 Paranormal Fox Network, Syfy, syndicated television
Extraordinary (The) 1993-1996
1994 Paranormal Seven Network (Australia)
U.S. version
Strange But True? 1993-1997 Paranormal ITV (U.K.)
Arthur C. Clarke’s Mysterious Universe 1994 Paranormal U.K.
Encounters: The Hidden Truth 1994 Paranormal Fox Channel
Ancient Mysteries 1994-1998 Paranormal History Channel/A&E
Histories Mysteries 1994-2006 Paranormal History Channel
Ghosthunters 1996 Ghosts Discovery Channel Europe
Strange Universe 1996 Paranormal UPN, syndicated television
Paranormal Borderline (The) 1996-1997 Paranormal UPN
Psi Factor: Chronicles of the Paranormal 1996-2000 Paranormal Canada
Unexplained (The) 1996-2000 Paranormal A&E Network, Biography Channel
Fortean TV 1997-1998 Paranormal U.K. Channel 4
Animal X 1997-2002 Cryptozoology Animal Planet
Beyond Belief: Fact or Fiction 1997-2002 Paranormal Fox
Haunted History 1998–2008 Ghosts History Channel, Biography Channel
Exploring the Unknown 1999 Paranormal Fox Kids
X Creatures (The) 1999 Cryptozoology BBC (U.K.)
Crossing Over with John Edward 1999–2004 Paranormal Sci-Fi Channel, Living TV (UK)
Encounters with the Unexplained 2000-2002 Paranormal PAX
Scariest Places on Earth 2000-2004 Ghosts ABC Family
MTV’s Fear 2000–2002 Ghosts MTV
Ghos****ch Live 2001 Ghosts U.K.
Out There TV 2001 Paranormal America One
Scary…But True 2001 Paranormal Syfy, YTV, Chiller
Truth or Scare 2001 – 2003 Paranormal Discovery Kids, The Hub
Haunted Hotels (America’s) -2001 Ghosts Travel Channel
6ixth Sense with Colin Fry 2002 Psychics Living TV (UK)
Critical Eye 2002 Paranormal Science Channel
Most Haunted Live! 2002 Ghosts Living TV (UK), Paranormal Channel (UK), Travel Channel
Scream Team 2002 Paranormal Living TV
Beyond with James vanPraagh 2002-2003 Psychics U.S. syndicated
Big Urban Myth 2002-2004 Paranormal MTV
Pet Psychic 2002-2004 Psychics Animal Planet
Mystery Hunters 2002-2006 Paranormal Discovery Networks, YTV
Mysterious Journeys 2002-2007 Paranormal Travel Channel
Scared! (on Staten Island) 2002-2009 Ghosts
Creepy Canada 2002–2006 Paranormal Canada
Most Haunted 2002–2010 Ghosts Living TV (UK), Paranormal Channel (UK), Travel Channel
Antiques Ghost Show (The) 2003 Ghosts Living TV (UK)
Penn & Teller’s Bullshit 2003-2010 Paranormal Showtime
Unexplained Mysteries 2003 Paranormal Syndicated television
Jane Goldman Investigates 2003-2004 Paranormal Living TV (UK)
Weird Travels 2003–2006 Paranormal Travel Channel
Proof Positive: Evidence of the Paranormal 2004 Paranormal SyFy
Psychic Detective with Tony Stockwell 2004 Psychics Living TV (U.K.)
I’m Famous and Frightened! 2004-2005 Ghosts Living TV (U.K.)
Weird U.S. 2004-2005 Paranormal History Channel
Dead Famous 2004-2006 Ghosts Living TV, Biography
Psychic Detectives 2004-2007 Psychics TruTV
UFO Files 2004-2007 Aliens/UFOs History Channel
Ghost Hunters 2004-current Ghosts Syfy
America’s Haunted Castles 2005 Ghosts Travel Channel
Derek Acorah’s Ghost Towns 2005 Ghosts Living TV (UK), Travel Channel
Dead Tenants 2005 Ghosts The Learning Channel
Enigma 2005 Paranormal Vision TV (Canada)
Girly Ghosthunters (The) 2005 Ghosts Canada
Haunted Houses: Tortured Souls & Restless Spirits 2005 Ghosts Biography Channel
Paranormal? 2005 Paranormal National Geographic Channel
Psychic Witness 2005-2006 Psychics TLC/Discovery
A Haunting 2005-2007 Ghosts Discovery Channel / Destination America
Beyond 2005-2007 Paranormal Canada
Is it Real? 2005-2007 Paranormal Nat Geo
Haunting Evidence 2005-2008 Paranormal Court TV/TruTV
Decoding the Past 2005-current Paranormal History Channel
Ghostly Encounters 2005-2011 Ghosts Viva/W Network (Canada), A&E Network, Biography Channel
Celebrity Paranormal Project 2006 Ghosts VH1
Haunted Homes 2006 Ghosts ITV
Haunted Lighthouses of America 2006 Ghosts Travel Channel
SciFi Investigates 2006 Paranormal SyFy
5th Dimension: Secrets of the Supernatural 2006 Paranormal Discovery
Unexplained Canada 2006 Paranormal Space
Extreme Ghost Stories 2006-2007 Ghosts ITV Granada WeTV (U.K.)
Ghost Trackers 2006-2008 Ghosts HBO, Discovery Kids Canada ,YTV
Psychic Investigators 2006-2009 Psychics Biography Channel
Ghosthunting with… 2006-2010 Ghosts ITV2 (U.K.)
Rescue Mediums 2006-2010 Psychics W Network (Canada)
Paranormal State 2006-2011 Paranormal A&E Network
America’s Psychic Challenge 2007 Psychics Lifetime
Investigations of the Unexplained 2007 Paranormal Travel Channel
Phenomenon / The Successor 2007 Psychic NBC
Spook School 2007-2008 Ghosts Unexplained Channel, Antix Productions
Monster Quest 2007-2010 Cryptozoology History Channel
Destination Truth 2007-current Paranormal SyFy
Ghost Hunters International 2008-2012 Ghosts Syfy
The Real Exorcist (Bob Larson) 2007 2008 2012 Demons Virgin 1 UK SciFi Lifetime
Paranormal Egypt 2008 Paranormal Travel Channel
The One 2008 and 2011 Psychic Seven Network (Aus)
Unexplained (The) with George Noory 2008 Paranormal SyFy
Living with the Dead 2008-2009 Ghosts U.K. CTV, syndicated
UFO Hunters 2008-2009 Aliens/UFOs History Channel
Ghost Adventures 2008-current Ghosts Travel Channel
Extreme Paranormal 2009 Ghosts A&E Network
Ghost Cases 2009 Ghosts (Canada)
Ghost Hunters Academy 2009 Ghosts Syfy
Ghost Intervention 2009 Ghosts TLC
Haunted (The) 2009 Ghosts Animal Planet
Nostradamus Effect 2009 Psychics History Channel
Othersiders (The) 2009 Ghosts Cartoon Network
Ghost Stories 2009 – current Ghosts Travel Channel
Most Terrifying Places in America 2009-2010 Paranormal Travel Channel
Ghost Lab 2009-2011 Ghosts Discovery Channel
Conspiracy Theory w/ Jesse Ventura 2009-2011 Conspiracy TruTV
Celebrity Ghost Stories 2009-current Ghosts Biography Channel
Fact Or Faked: Paranormal Files 2009-current Paranormal Syfy
Mystery Quest 2009 Paranormal History Channel
Psychic Kids 2009-2011 Psychics Biography Channel/A&E Network
River Monsters 2009-current Cryptozoology Animal Planet
American Paranormal 2010 Paranormal Nat Geo
Real and Chance: The Legend Hunters 2010 Paranormal VH1
Ancient X Files 2010-2011 Paranormal Nat Geo
Derren Brown Investigates 2010 Paranormal Ch. 4 (U.K.)
Freak Encounters 2010 Paranormal Animal Planet
Mary Knows Best 2010 Psychics SyFy
Paranatural 2010 Paranormal Nat Geo
Paranormal Cops 2010 Paranormal A&E Network
Pet Psychic Encounters 2010 Psychics Animal Planet
Weird or What 2010 Paranormal Discovery Channel
My Ghost Story 2010 Ghosts Biography Channel
Ancient Aliens 2010-current Aliens/UFO History Channel
Brad Meltzer’s Decoded 2010-current Conspiracy History Channel
Paranormal State: The New Class 2010 Paranormal A&E Network
Beast Hunter 2011 Cryptozoology Nat Geo
I Survived…Beyond and Back 2011 Miracles Biography Channel
Miracle Detectives 2011 Miracles OWN
Finding Bigfoot 2011-current Cryptozoology Animal Planet
Haunted Collector 2011-current Ghosts SyFy
Legend Quest 2011 Paranormal SyFy
From Beyond 2011 Paranormal Mun2
Paranormal Witness 2011 Paranormal SyFy
Long Island Medium 2011-current Psychics TLC
Celebrity Ghost Hunt (w/Chip Coffey) 2011 (pilot only) Ghosts Biography
Dark Matters: Twisted but True 2011-current Paranormal Science Channel
The Truth Behind… 2011 Paranormal Nat Geo
Paranormal Challenge 2011 Paranormal Travel Channel
Dead Files (The) 2011-current Psychics Travel Channel
Exorcist Files (The) 2012-cancelled Demons Discovery
Beyond Belief 2012 Miracles OWN
School Spirits 2012 Ghosts SyFy
Haunted Highway 2012-current Paranormal SyFy
Ghost Mine 2012 Paranormal SyFy
Chasing UFOs 2012 Aliens/UFOs Nat Geo
Conspiracy Road Trip 2012 Conspiracy BBC3 (UK)
Professor Weird 2012 Paranormal Science Channel
Paranormal Paparazzi 2012 Paranormal Travel Channel
Cursed 2012 Paranormal Biography
UFOs: The Untold Stories 2012 Aliens/UFO Nat Geo
Haunted Encounters: Face to Face 2012 Paranormal Biography
Unsealed: Conspiracy Files 2012- Conspiracy CW?
Unsealed: Alien Files 2012- Aliens/UFO CW?
The Haunting Of… 2012-current Paranormal Biography
Stranded 2013 Paranormal SyFy
Deep South Paranormal 2013 Paranormal SyFy
Alien Mysteries 2013 Aliens/UFO Discovery Canada and Destination America
Monsters and Mysteries in America 2013 Cryptozoology Destination America
Killer Contact 2013 Paranormal SyFy
Joe Rogan Questions Everything 2013 Paranormal SyFy
Psychic Tia 2013 Psychics A & E
The Unexplained Files 2013 Paranormal Science Channel
Stalked by a Ghost 2013 Paranormal Biography
Ghost Bait 2013 Paranormal Biography
Mountain Monsters 2013- Cryptozoology Destination America
When Ghosts Attack 2013 Paranormal Destination America
Buyer Beware In development Paranormal SyFy
Ghost Town, USA In development Paranormal SyFy
Deadfinder In development Paranormal SyFy
10 Million Dollar Big Foot Bounty In development Cryptozoology Spike

You choose

You determined the order of nucleotides within a DNA molecule using a toothpick and a magnifying glass? I'd assumed it was more complex than that.

Derek Acora

seriously ?

Erm... Like exactly all the people who do precisely that?

well.. Not precisely.

There are people who sell general spookiness, but a repeatable hard physical phenomenon would be a little different I feel.

Whatever I would eventually decide upon, I certainly would not ignore it. The chance to revolutionise our knowledge of the world and possibly our species should not be passed up on.

You choose
why?
I would have to think this was a serious conversation

Well, it started out that way, but this is how i see it now

Dude saw some spooky shit

Nah no way don't believe in that stuff

Why not?

I only believe in science and stuff, i'm a scientist me. I wanna see evidence?

What evidence do you want?

For what?

Huh? For this stuff we've been talking about, any of it

The phrase used is clear and unambigous and covers a multitude of avenues for gaining evidence of that scientific nature

It's disengous to pretend you dont understand and its clear nothing stops you when you do this as you are not really asking or confused by the statement as you are bright fella despite doing this

I'm getting lost now JY, which phrase?

Molgrips

I'd be opening up my living room as a tourist attraction and making millions. I'd be challenging the world's investigators to debunk it and selling the TV rights to Sky Living.

Then i give you a list of people doing exactly that

There are people who sell general spookiness, but a repeatable hard physical phenomenon would be a little different I feel.

I'm not sure what your point is

Objective repeatable, measurable and capable of falsification/experimentation

I'm getting lost now JY, which phrase?

Then i give you a list of people doing exactly that

Ok that part was just me being silly. But there's no way I'd let it go. I'd be investingating.

Junkyard - I think Charlie is using rhetorical questioning.

Well, when you have a non scientific approach, the assumption is your only tool

By "assumed", I meant that I know some of what is involved in [i]sequencing[/i] DNA and that it is rather more than a toothpick and a magnifying glass. Did you use the Maxam-Gilbert method or a Chain-termination method? (Both these require radioactive labeling and toxic chemicals.)

But we'd have to determine exactly what we were trying to prove first, wouldn't we?

You choose

I gave some examples above.

Someone on this thread knows someone who claims to have a bookshelf that expels books. They could rebuild the bookcases and then we could go there with vibration sensors and a bunch of Go Pro cameras and record what happens.

Hard to be more specific without doing some preliminary experiments first though. I'm sure the local university would oblige.

Another ghost video. Well worth watching:

[i]Strange but interesting. This is a car advertisement from Great Britain. When they finished filming the ad, the film editor noticed something moving along the side of the car, like a ghostly white mist. They found out that a person had been killed a year earlier in that exact same spot.

The ad was never put on TV because of the unexplained ghostly phenomenon. Watch the front end of the car as it clears the trees in the middle of the screen and you'll see the white mist crossing in front of the car then following it along the road....Spooky! Is it a ghost, or is it simply mist? You decide. If you have the sound up a little, you'll even hear the cameraman whispering in the background about it near the end of the commercial. A little creepy but pretty cool![/i]

I was about to give up on this thread but thank goodness for that post ir bandito - case proven, scared the **** out of me!

That video is pretty hard to explain...

Ok, maybe i'm getting confused about who is calling themselves scientific. Regardless of your field of expertise, if scientific, you should be able to design a study to collect evidence which meets the criteria above.

I'm only asking for suggestions from those who demand evidence before they believe. So far all we' ve had suggested is video, from the same people who dismiss video. Asking experts to look at it just plays tomthe faith model.

Someone on this thread knows someone who claims to have a bookshelf that expels books. They could rebuild the bookcases and then we could go there with vibration sensors and a bunch of Go Pro cameras and record what happens.

Ok, so lets say you get data showing a vibration and see video of books flying off the shelf? Is that evidence?

[img] [/img]

No, not at all, i actually sequenced it properly and i got some results.

😀 Protocol please, or you're a science walt.

Ok, so lets say you get data showing a vibration and see video of books flying off the shelf? Is that evidence?

It's evidence of something strange.

You seem to be driving at the ultimate question which is how do we know for sure that we're observing something that would be traditionally considered part of the 'paranormal'. Well it's a good question, and somewhat difficult if not impossible to prove in this situation. It's not as if we have our late Auntie Mabel telling us where she hid the family silver so we can go and look for it.

However if books were flying off shelves without any other apparent explanation it would certainly be very interesting and worthy of study. We may not learn about ghosts but I'm sure we'd learn something, possibly pretty fantastic.

You seem to be driving at the ultimate question which is how do we know for sure that we're observing something that would be traditionally considered part of the 'paranormal

No I'm driving at people identifying themselves as 'scientific' actually having little idea about the scientific endeavour. These same people will refuse to believe certain things because they take a scientific view of the world. Yet in reality, they don't really know how to go about interpreting phenomena in a scientific way. The know some of the language and terminology, but in practical terms of gather evidence, whilst avoiding confounds they seem to be lacking.

Yes, I agree. Although you can be a football fan without being a good player, can you not? I know that's not quite the same thing but I get the impression that a lot of people are fans of science, rather than scientists themselves. And I think that's probably ok, as long as you know that's what you are. Otherwise you're like a football fan who thinks his team is the best in the world, even if they're not.

Yet in reality, they don't really know how to go about interpreting phenomena in a scientific way.

I don't know how to fix a space shuttle either.

But if an expert space shuttle engineer, tells me how they do it, I would be happy to accept it.

And I would be happy to accept their opinion of the fault too.

I guess the trouble with things like this is that because they are anomolies in the space time continuum its rather impossible to repeat in a lab, until we are able to fully and safely harness energy equivelent to the power of a black hole its just a matter of opinion.

I don't know how to fix a space shuttle either.

But if an expert space shuttle engineer, tells me how they do it, I would be happy to accept it.

And I would be happy to accept their opinion of the fault too.

Nothing wrong with that

No I'm driving at people identifying themselves as 'scientific' actually having little idea about the scientific endeavour. These same people will refuse to believe certain things because they take a scientific view of the world. Yet in reality, they don't really know how to go about interpreting phenomena in a scientific way. The know some of the language and terminology, but in practical terms of gather evidence, whilst avoiding confounds they seem to be lacking.

For you to have evidence do scientists have to capture one then give it to a team of theoretical physicists? But video camera footage that isn't fake, grainy or otherwise totally explainable would be a start.

Apply "ghosts" to this video from 35:00 onwards. This answers "Yet in reality, they don't really know how to go about interpreting phenomena in a scientific way." The answer is, within physics we can rule ghosts out as an unknown unknown.

[img] [/img]

No I'm driving at people identifying themselves as 'scientific' actually having little idea about the scientific endeavour. These same people will refuse to believe certain things because they take a scientific view of the world. Yet in reality, they don't really know how to go about interpreting phenomena in a scientific way. The know some of the language and terminology, but in practical terms of gather evidence, whilst avoiding confounds they seem to be lacking.

Several 'methods' of initial study have been suggested. Or, maybe we should use a toothpick and a magnifying glass?

You mean this?

go there with vibration sensors and a bunch of Go Pro cameras and record what happens.

Theres a common theme when a ghost topic comes up. Those that believe, those that are unsure and those that shout/kick up/create a fight to spoil a discussion. IF you don't believe then say it and leave it.

Its a bit like football topics and the 'oi its only wendyball you idiots'. You know what it'll contain so why don't you avoid the topic?

If the topic title said 'oi do you believe in Ghosts or not' then its an invite to kick up isn't it?

I'm unsure if I believe or not but I wonder how many Scientists are Christian/religious. Thats a bit of a conflict of interests in itself.

Apologies for not taking time out of my day to write a full and formal experimental design.

If I were investigating the book-shelf incident, the first thing I'd want to verify was that the homeowners weren't making it up or faking it to wind each other up, or they have a child doing it, or rats, or whatever. Hence, a bunch of cameras.

(I picked HD cameras, because so many 'ghosts' seem to be recorded in low res with poor lighting despite the current high saturation of mains electricity and HD cameras. Odd that.)

You'd then want to start ruling out obvious things like vibrations from local roads or trainlines. Again, the cameras would give timings which might synch with the local train line, or blasting times at the local quarry, or when the delivery arrives at the local supermarket, or whatever.

From the film footage, you can calculate velocities and trajectories, and therefore energies and from there you could devise more specific tests. Obviously, you'd also check that the shelves were level and fitted properly.

To say much more from the description of "some books fell off some shelves and it was spooky" is pretty difficult really. You'd want to rule out obvious natural causes before you want any further and checked whether the structure of this roof cap is exactly like the kind of telemetry tracker that NASA uses to identify dead pulsars in deep space using cold riveted girders with cores of pure selenium.

Theres a common theme when a ghost topic comes up. Those that believe, those that are unsure and those that shout/kick up/create a fight to spoil a discussion. IF you don't believe then say it and leave it.

I'm pretty sure that this is a discussion forum. We're discussing something. Another common theme is someone making the post you just made.

If the topic title said 'oi do you believe in Ghosts or not' then its an invite to kick up isn't it?

The topic title included the fact that the MD was usually level headed, which implied that there was room for debate and discussion.

I'm unsure if I believe or not but I wonder how many Scientists are Christian/religious. Thats a bit of a conflict of interests in itself.

Very few scientists are religious:

"[url= http://www.annarbor.com/faith/science-vs-religion-what-are-scientists-religious-beliefs/ ]Almost all Americans believe in God. But only a third of elite scientists believe in some sort of God.[/url]"

And that's in America, where 90% of the population believe in a god. Over here, only about 40% of the public believe in a god - assuming a similar 3:1 ratio that'd be about 12% of British scientists but I suspect it'd be lower than that.

We probably shouldn't bring religion into the thread though, or it'd go on for a lot more than 9 pages.

Very few scientists are religious and only 1/3 are?

33% is alot considering their vocation. No?

I'm unsure if I believe or not but I wonder how many Scientists are Christian/religious

As for ghosts, I don't know but I don't believe
It doesn't matter anyway because the dead have never hurt anybody. The living on the other hand...

None of them, they aren't compatible beliefs

All the scientists that said, when asked, that they believe in god, would probably disagree.

Very few scientists are religious and only 1/3 are?

33% is alot considering their vocation. No?

That's not what I or the quote said.

The article said "some sort of god" - that's very different to being religious. You'd need to look at the original study/survey and how it worded the question, but I'd guess it also includes vague stuff about spirituality and pantheism as well as Judeo-Christian type of god.

There are some high profile religious scientists, who tie themselves in all sorts of knots to resolve their conflicting beliefs, but very few.

How many of the people on here saying that ghosts almost certainly don't exist do you think believe in the existence of a god? I'd guess none.

I can't say for definite. As I said earlier we've had two ladies die premature deaths in our house (one 30, the other 72 from a heart attack). One lay there for two days the other was discovered same day.

I have heard things, not 'oo what was that but 'why is the bloody bin lid flapping like crazy'. A 5litre bottle of water soon sorted that 'problem'.

What could it have been? As I said it only happened for circa 2weeks in May for two years in a row after we'd moved in.

I've been in derelict old great houses, slept in a tent in a cemetry and heard nowt.

We used to live in an old workhouse and boy that was noisy at night. Who knows.

This suggests less than 10% of scientists believe in god, though other figures on the page suggests a higher number:

"A more recent survey of American scientists performed by Larson and Witham (1999) polled people listed in the publication American Men and Women of Science who were also members of the National Academy of Sciences, an honor society. They found that over 90% of respondents reported that they did not believe in a god." - http://www.skepticink.com/gps/2013/03/04/intelligence-religion-part-3-religious-beliefs-among-scientists/

IF you don't believe then say it and leave it.

Its a bit like football topics and the 'oi its only wendyball you idiots'.

Its not an opinion its a matter of fact regarding reality. Whether ghosts exist, the world is flat or there is a god is a matter of fact as there is a right and a wrong answer.

You know what it'll contain so why don't you avoid the topic?

I'm unsure if I believe or not but I wonder how many Scientists are Christian/religious. Thats a bit of a conflict of interests in itself.

So much for scary stories...

This thread is about keyboard warriors yet again arguing who is right.

Get a life.

So much for scary stories...
This thread is about keyboard warriors yet again arguing who is right.
Get a life.

Do you need someone to explain to you what a "discussion" is ?