I have not bothered reporting anything since as I assume that that is how the techs want it to be.
I think this is a 'managing expectations' issue.
Proposed changes get entered into what for convenience I'm referring to as a "bug tracker" but is actually much more than that, it's essentially a roadmap for the site. Looking at it now, I can see committed changes from version 2.7.0 up to 2.7.9 which is current, then proposed changes for 2.7.10, 2.7.11, and for 2.8.0 thru 2.8.5 inclusive.
Point is, just because you report something and it doesn't get implemented inside of 30 seconds doesn't mean it's been ignored. Rather, everything has a priority. It could easily be on the list for a version which is months down the line.
While I appreciate feedback needs to be prioritised, and updates can only be delivered at certain times and in certain orders, it just grates that new colour/logos for contributors gets implemented ahead of basic site functionality/usability.
We're all here because we want to be, and find it frustrating that tinkering and beautification appears to be delivered at the expense of functionality.
A brief scan up the thread indicates that the majority of feedback is coming from paying members of the site, so we are the customer just wanting to have a competent, usable forum that we all love.
To be honest, I don't think any upgrade has actually brought the user experience back up to what it was in the "coffee and cream" days of the pre-2008 hack. Sure there were issues posting images, and quoting/fonts we dodgy but in the 12 years since, I don't think the forum has ever reached the same level of simple functionality it had back then. It was basic, and I don;t really think it needs to be anything more.
We come for the bikes but stay for the company...
... find it frustrating that tinkering and beautification appears to be delivered at the expense of functionality.
That's because it isn't just "tinkering and beautification" for the sake of it. The change is necessary as part of a wider project.
This is part of the problem, it's a perception issue. I quite often see people bemoan "I don't understand why..." and the answer is "correct, you don't." Mark has - well, had, pre-coronavirus - an open invite for anyone who wants to know more to pay them a visit. I used to think exactly the same way until I spent an afternoon at STW towers. I try to bring a bit of transparency where I can but I'm not always privy to everything.
In any case, as much as you say that, you're looking at an 8-page thread of which maybe a quarter of the content is people arguing about whether one of the new icons is the wrong shade of blue or not. This was such a compelling issue in fact that someone started a second thread about it.
It was basic, and I don;t really think it needs to be anything more.
You may well think that, but unfortunately it has no bearing in reality. A "basic forum" does not pay the salaries of a dozen staff. The simple look of the site betrays its complexity.
Have a look at https://builtwith.com/singletrackworld.com
The site might run a hell of a lot faster, consuming a lot less server resources if it wasn't running half that shit 😉
Thanks Cougar but that link means literally nothing to me! I'm a civil engineer, not connected with web design/IT in any way.
I'm not saying it isn't complex behind the scenes, but a clean simple functionality is currently lacking with icons and menus scattered around the page, and adverts (either external for non-payers, or merchandise for subscribers). I'm also aware that the "old" forum as a total technical hack/bodge, and had limited upgrade potential, so change was required and the 2008 hack was a major impetus in overcoming the inertia.
The reason there's so many posts about it, is that we care about the forum. If there is this long pipeline of improvements/upgrades to come, that will implement changes at seemingly random orders (but for perfectly justifiable technical reasons) then why not share it with your committed, educated, informed and invested primary user group to create feedback, or at least to inform that user group?
The site doesn't even have consistent menus between classifieds and forum. It feels like there's no overall control or direction of the development, and when changes/upgrades appear (to the end user) randomly and change elements of inconsequential value, it feels like there is no regard for us as users.
I've said this before on these threads, maybe I should email the comments directly as you suggest, but as its not bug reporting of technical issues, I thought putting it on the forum seemed an appropriate place. Maybe not.
you’d be as well grading the membership on models of Jura coffee machines.
Ena 7 please. Mine's a bit leaky but decent espresso colour logo requested.
The site might run a hell of a lot faster, consuming a lot less server resources if it wasn’t running half that shit 😉
... for about a week, until the business goes bust.
Thanks Cougar but that link means literally nothing to me!
Point was, that's the technologies underpinning the site. You don't really need to understand it, rather I meant to demonstrate the complexity for anyone thinking "it's only a forum, I could spin up something better in an afternoon." I almost certainly could too, but it'd have three users if I were lucky and I wouldn't exactly be in a position to jack in my current job and live off it.
why not share it with your committed, educated, informed and invested primary user group to create feedback, or at least to inform that user group?
Because, as ably demonstrated on this thread and many others, every time I share a snippet of information I get multiple users trying to drive holes through it. Everyone thinks they know better - this isn't a criticism because as above, I once thought I knew better - so can you imagine what would happen if the planned changelog for like the next year were made public? It'd be like a pubful of football fans after a big match.
The site doesn’t even have consistent menus between classifieds and forum.
There's a reason for that. The Classifieds is (for reasons I'm not privy to) an entirely separate website. Integrating the two is one of the Major Release upgrades planned.
it feels like there is no regard for us as users.
You have to understand, this isn't Future Publishing. The entire webdev team is just two guys who have to develop the site alongside the rest of their day job. There are only so many hours in a day and the job list is long - in between my last post and this, the next two major releases have been added to the tracker.
I understand where you're coming from and I wish there were more transparency, but communication has never been STW's strong point (probably for reasons as above, Mark's likely sick of getting mauled every time he tries). Look at it this way though - how is feedback here relative to most other sites, honestly? A lot of forums probably wouldn't even allow this discussion to take place. Do you get public website roadmaps from Amazon or The Guardian, or solicitations to users for feedback and requests?
That’s because it isn’t just “tinkering and beautification” for the sake of it. The change is necessary as part of a wider project.
I totally get that there's no doubt wider-scale changes in the pipeline, but, come on, different coloured logos per subscriber level was/is 'necessary'? Someone needs to refresh their knowledge of MoSCoW ratings...
So... green?
Cool.
Do you get public website roadmaps from Amazon or The Guardian, or solicitations to users for feedback and requests?
https://monzo.com/community/making-monzo/
https://community.revolut.com/
In a moment of brutal honesty one of the main reasons we don't share our schedule of planned work is probably the same reason no other business does and that's because we'd be inundated with "You don't want to do it like that.. you want to put a bangin' donk on it".
There are decisions that I take that you wouldn't like. But I take them because I have a responsibility to the business and the people who work here to take them in order to be sustainable. Sharing a business plan with the public is not a sensible idea not least because we have competitors in the market and we'd rather they didn't know too much about what we are up to. There's been points made about why the tech guys here don't read the forum. Partly that's because I advise them not to. As seen above, they get insulted (see Bez's joking comment about how they probably couldn't read anyway - One of the tech guys is dyslexic as it happens, but that's not important). The point is that running a business by running the plans through the forum committee first is futile. It just won't work and only results in pain.
Once we ran a poll on what cover image we should run on an early magazine. That ended very badly. Firstly it alienated all the readers who's first choice wasn't chosen and secondly it resulted in the individual on one of the covers being insulted and picked on by sexist idiots. We learned a lot from that. That doesn't mean we don't listen. Our tech guys may not frequent this forum but I do and I often act as a buffer/filter. Our moderators do an amazing job of filtering what we really need to know. There are mechanisms, including publicly available email addresses and even private messaging of staff along with more structured reporting systems available to all users. We aren't exactly closed off and you'd be hard pressed to find any other publication of our size (1.5 million uniques/month) that engages so directly with it's user base.
As Cougar said, the rebranding is not merely cosmetic - there is an underlying plan and reason that encompasses everything from standardisation of the tech through to intellectual property factors. I get that all it looks like is some little coloured icons.
I also get that for the regulars it looks like development is random - but it really isn't. As Cougar has also mentioned we are working and planning on updates to the site several iterations ahead. This update was 2.7.9 - we have separate ongoing projects for versions 2.7.10, 2.7.11. Then we start on 2.8 and we already have 2.9 and 2.10 in the pipeline. What we have planned in those versions I'm not prepared to detail, but there are lots of bug fixes but also lots of editorial and user feature enhancements.
We really are doing a lot of work. Our two tech guys are exceptional and very talented with decades of experience between them. But ask yourself if you'd be happy for the forum to be looking over your shoulder questioning every decision you make while you are work?
If I can boil down the ongoing business plan to a sentence or tow I guess it would be this...
The traffic is driven to our site by the forum and yet it represents a small proportion of our income. What matters is converting that traffic to paying members. What is not obvious to anyone but us is that the most lucrative converting factor is the editorial output we produce. I know some of you are only here for the forum and wouldn't recognise the front page if your tripped over it - but still - the money is brought in by the editorial content. If i turned our attention to everything you'd like us to regards improving the forum we'd have a great forum for a small return. If I turn our attention to the content we get a much greater return on that investment. The trick is to try and manage both but without the cash and resources it becomes a daily game of where the priority lies in order to make sure we can keep paying the bills.
I have a plan to manage that and get us to where everyone is happy. It's not going to be quick and you won't think everything is as important as I do, but I can only do what I think is right for Singletrack in the long run.
I hope that all helps and takes some of the heat off Cougar who desperately needs sleep.
I hope that all helps and takes some of the heat off Cougar who desperately needs sleep.
Pretty sure he got 40 winks back in 2019.....
NB I quite like the coloured icons....
In a moment of brutal honesty one of the main reasons we don’t share our schedule of planned work is probably the same reason no other business does
Sorry fella, but the forward thinking ones really do, see the Monzo and Revolut examples above. Monzo literally publish their Trello board.
https://trello.com/b/9tcaMB4w/monzo-transparent-product-roadmap
Like a say. we also have competitors that I'm not comfortable with seeing the full picture so for us this is not a workable option. Again, that's my decision and I know you don't like it. As Cougar also said, we've had an open door policy to anyone on an individual basis who wants to come to the office in person and see what and why we do things the way we do. When we can do that again that invite will stand.
Thanks Mark.
One thing here - "see Bez’s joking comment about how they probably couldn’t read anyway" - I genuinely think you've got the wrong end of the stick there, I think it was dig at forum readability rather than directed at the guys.
You're not wrong about sleep though.
Monzo literally publish their Trello board.
Did you follow your own link? It was last updated in 2016.
This is a demonstration of what I was saying earlier. I know it's meant with the best of intentions but as soon as we put out any sort of information there's always someone leaping up to provide a couple of outlier examples to try and demonstrate how wrong it is. It's wearing. I was this > < close to resigning my moderator role earlier this year.
I won't say anything 'cause no one ever listens to me, anyway. I might as well be a Leonard Cohen album.
Did you follow your own link? It was last updated in 2016.
Mea culpa, their roadmap stuff is now done in the first Monzo link I posted.
probably the same reason no other business does and that’s because we’d be inundated with “You don’t want to do it like that.. you want to put a bangin’ donk on it”.
I work in a leading software company and we share our roadmap regularly to our customers. It helps them.understand how we are progressing, where their money is going and they have feedback into it. Maybe you could expose it more privately, at least to the Lifetime members, who have made a small investment.
I also cant believe you think that a competitor will trump you with a shiny enough website that we'd all suddenly bugger off. There is a little sense of community and an established and helpful Bike forum - its that that keeps people about.
In terms of keeping a “magazine” afloat and relevant in the modern world, Mark has proven to be ahead of many of the big names… if he wants to play his cards close to his chest, to stay ahead, and afloat… take him at his word… he has good reason.
Maybe you could expose it more privately, at least to the Lifetime members, who have made a small investment.
I wouldn’t trust them...
Mea culpa, their roadmap stuff is now done in the first Monzo link I posted.
Yeah, I saw that. It's a couple of features which are near-complete, and an update going "we're working on this!" for a couple of others. It's a far cry from what folk seem to be proposing here. STW ain't on GitHub.
I also cant believe you think that a competitor will trump you with a shiny enough website
You are correct. That’s not what I think.
I don't post here that much but have been a member for a long time. Sometimes the posts and comments are absurd - most of the time they are great, which I find refreshing for a forum (of any subject matter)
What I don't understand is such desire for bloody roadmaps. At the end of the day (old school me), what we have here is a great MTB magazine with a supporting forum and classifieds area.
I'd be so bold as to say you get what you're given and if you don't like it, don't use/buy it. Mark and his team shouldn't have to give plans out to the public. Yes of course he probably will to large investors / advertisers but for the main - no.
Cries of 'but why are investors, we pay subscriptions' are heard, but in reality are we really investors or just simply purchasing a magazine? Bit of a play on words but I bought numerous magazines a month 20 years ago (no, not them ones...lol ) . I didn't feel the need to write to them every 14 seconds with demands to see their plans for the future or complain that the back cover needs to be blue not green. Why should it be any different now.
/rant over.
The guy is trying to run a business, not appease the masses.
Well said twonks.
People seem to like to get upset over e weirdest things.
Twonks - I think its actually a profitable forum that supports a low circulation magazine. Given the numbers who visit the forum and the numbers who pay for the magazine its that way round for sure
Without the forum the magazine collapses. Without the magazine no incentive for STW to run the forum
I did think that after I posted Tj, however the gist of my post stands I believe.
Maybe even more as the cost for a digital only subscription is a lot less than the money spent on printed media once upon a time.
Cries of ‘but why are investors, we pay subscriptions’ are heard, but in reality are we really investors or just simply purchasing a magazine? Bit of a play on words but I bought numerous magazines a month 20 years ago (no, not them ones…lol ) . I didn’t feel the need to write to them every 14 seconds with demands to see their plans for the future or complain that the back cover needs to be blue not green. Why should it be any different now.
Yes, but would you keep paying the same or increasing money for it if it remained not current, and shit? And if you - and others - stopped paying, what do you think would happen? Business grows by revenue being injected into it, and rarely it grows by charitable work. STW runs in - as far as I'm aware - a revenue model in part coming from the pockets of many of the people posting here. I don't think anyone really wants to see a full blown corporate roadmap and obtuse response from Mark doesn't help the people relationship either.
What was asked for was an explanation of the purpose of the identification of users subscription status, and the response we got was a nondescript "its about a bigger thing". At least have the temerity to explain the former in such a way it doesn't necessarily expose the roadmap if you're going to make that kind of statement. Of course people will be intrigued about the "bigger thing".
Personally I think its a bit impolite to be told to F off by implication when all you want to know is why our Sub status is being revealed.
The guy is trying to run a business, not appease the masses.
In a service led business, the two are not exclusive.
You keep on saying that TJ but it’s not the case. Something I’ve told you more than once.
You keep on saying that TJ but it’s not the case. Something I’ve told you more than once.
No surprise there....
What was asked for was an explanation of the purpose of the identification of users subscription status,
I can't believe anyone is that bothered by it, it's just a coloured icon. Makes no difference to the posts on the forum.
This is nice
I can’t believe anyone is that bothered by it, it’s just a coloured icon. Makes no difference to the posts on the forum.
Some people have asked why though footflaps, and it remains a mystery I believe ( I haven't read all the pages so could be wrong). If its not an issue, why the big palaver/secret about its use?
Maybe just get over it?
Christ some of you are painfully tedious, these coloured icons now there is no secret of why they are here it’s to show you sub pack in shiny badge a bit like the Gnasher badge.
There's a Gnasher badge?
shiny badge a bit like the Gnasher badge
I wish that I still had mine 🙁
Me too. Hairy lovely.
Lol @scotroutes
@Drac, that could have been said on page 1 of this thread but oh no, it became about "a bigger thing", you're the masters of your own tedium with that one 😀
Anyway never mind, I'm off to ask "what 32" HD monitor for subscription badge ultra visualisation ....
It’s part of a rebranding of our membership. Premier is gone as is the word ‘subscribe’. I did actually say this earlier in the thread.
that could have been said on page 1 of this thread but oh no, it became about “a bigger thing”, you’re the masters of your own tedium with that one 😀
Yes it was done as a bit of fun too see if anyone could work it out. Would you like my sponge you seem to have more use for it?
It’s part of a rebranding of our membership. Premier is gone as is the word ‘subscribe’. I did actually say this earlier in the thread.
You really have taken the P?
I’m genuinely wishing I hadn’t bothered starting this thread now.
Only wanted to know what the secret code was
Everyone still bickering?
Yep. So it seems.
Great look, folks. Great look.
I’m genuinely wishing I hadn’t bothered starting this thread now.
It's followed the usual pattern of user overreaction and Mark taking umbrage at any kind of criticism.
