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Even if they could open the top [which doesn't seem to the location of the access hatch] it might sink pretty quickly if it doesn't have much freeboard (bit above the water) and there are any waves.
To the people drawing a parallel between the efforts being put into this 'rescue' vs the terribly sad refugee boat capsize - I don't think it's anything to do with the fact that the people stuck in this sub are rich, it's just a common human trait that you can empathize more easily with one or two people than hundreds. Look at the Chilean miners, or the Thai cave rescue - people caught onto the fact that there is a limited time window to save people caught in a horrifying situation and that's what people respond to. It's not lack of empathy for the 500, nor action being taken solely for some ill advised billionaires. if it was research scientists down there I think the efforts would be the same.
The refugee boat capsize took the majority of the fatalities to the bottom of the sea, trapped inside the boat. They weren't going to be rescued.
These people are possibly still alive.
If it’s on the surface surely a SAR aircraft with heat cameras could find it quite easily. They could cover quite a distance in a fairly short time.
Only if you know where the point the camera. The ocean is a big place and even high-def TI cameras still aren’t high definition at all compared to a TV camera
Stevet1 - I agree that it likely wouldn’t make any difference if they were research scientists (although most scientist are smart enough to know you can do deep sea research without going on a sun yourself!), but I think there’s something wrong in your analysis of why “we” get excited about some dramas more than others. It “helps” if we have names and faces to relate to. It “helps” if there is a deadline and some feeling of slight hope. It “helps” if the drama/risk seems to be in a really difficult location. But there is more money being spent on this attempted rescue than on many other rescues of sailors, mountaineers etc. sometimes a story just seems to resonate with the media - I think that’s as much to do with it being different than the number of people involved. If subs got lost every month this would be a footnote on the news.
There's the Titanic Factor in this too. If it had just disappeared in to some deep ocean trench then there may have been less interest.
The pilot and other scientific guy knew the risks,
I'm particularly surprised by Hamish Harding who had previously been down to the Challenger Deep (11000m) in DSV Limiting Factor which makes Titan look a very amateur affair.
Also helps if they ate white.
at least 40% of the people in the missing sub are not white.
Also helps if they ate white
well in this case two of them aren’t..
General point and a well proven one
Also helps if they ate white
In the 2 most recent examples I can think of, the people involved weren't white - Chilean Miners and Thai boys in the mine.
I’m particularly surprised by Hamish Harding who had previously been down to the Challenger Deep (11000m) in DSV Limiting Factor which makes Titan look a very amateur affair.
Not a surprise that Limiting Factor is built to DNV classification standards.
The very standards that the Oceangate CEO rubbished.
Im sure in the first couple of pages someone said this would appear...
https://newrepublic.com/post/173802/missing-titanic-sub-faced-lawsuit-depths-safely-travel-oceangate
The viewing hatch was only guaranteed by the manufacturer to 1,300 meters due to the experimental nature of construction... alhough this was 2018 so hopefully they got a new one!
I would argue it isn't race per-se, but culture. Someone living in a wealthy western culture is more likely to identify with others the same. That a large proportion of those people will be caucasian is coincidence, not the cause.
A flood in a suburb/town in australia tugs at our heartstrings more than one a mountain village in central asia, because we can identify with it. Videos last year of bombs landing in Ukraine, it looked like any european city. That means more than the fleeing faces and bodies being white.
While I'm assuming nobody on here can afford a 250k holiday/jolly even if they didn't have to pay again for their kids, most of us are used to spaffing our disposable income on things we will enjoy, rather than mere survival.
As someone above said, we are all rich in global terms. Whether that means that in reality we are closer to a billionaire than a war refugee or not, is up for debate but for a lot of people the idea of fleeing your home and crossing the world in a death trap with a snake head is probably something they have never considered. Ooh I want to go somewhere interesting for my holiday is a lot more realistic. Even if your level of interesting holiday is getting a bus to the next county and looking at an old church.
Christ so not only now is this rescue biased because its rich people, the rescuers are also racist now
I am in the camp of this being about trying to overcome an adverse situation to save human lives - yes I know there is something voyeuristic about that, but we all like the element of jeopardy in whether they will be found alive or dead (if found at all)
On the bright side I knew my exhaustive knowledge of Clive Cussler novels would come in useful one day.
I was thinking about this thread last night, and how some of the properly expert views are brilliant, but there are so many people obviously relying on the expert opinion of thriller novels and films. (I thought Tom Clancy, maybe Alistair Maclean, but Cussler is closer!). But that's the internet, isn't it. People don't have any doubt that their misheard GCSE physics or Das Boot inside info must actually be the real answer, and for a few seconds they are Expert. Even if they are hopelessly wrong.
😀
Christ on a bendy bus TJ! Never heard such abject twaddle. I suppose the rescuers are also homophobic and transphobic for good measure too?
Definitely every Cussler Dirk Pitt novel has some form of unlikely underwater escape. Whether thats a sub, scuba, caving etc.
There's one that sticks in my mind - where a deep water sub had a pin prick leak, too small to seethe incoming water in poor light, and too minor to have immediate flooding concerns, but the water jet was at such a pressure it could cut someone in half.
Is that even vaguely realistic?
put your hand in front of the jet from your pressure washer... now make the pressure 3?4? times greater, and the jet thinner
water jet cutting is a thing for material cutting, but a quick search tells me a bout 20000PSI upwards? 4 times greater than this but that would be to cut metals most likely
Yes, i have heard of water jet cutting plate steel before. Pre laser technologies though.
Yes, i have heard of water jet cutting plate steel before. Pre laser technologies though.
It's used a lot in Offshore decommissioning. It also used for cutting up UXO.
I have seen one demonstrated that could cut through 8" steel plate.
People don’t have any doubt that their misheard GCSE physics or Das Boot inside info must actually be the real answer, and for a few seconds they are Expert. Even if they are hopelessly wrong.
I don't know why we haven't just sent Trident down there to rescue it, I assume it's got a tow hitch. Imagine the positive publicity Sunak could get off of that.
The interview on R4 with the journalist on a different sub that got tangled with the Titanic said that in his briefing was told if there's a breach then you won't drown, but be cut to ribbons by the stream of water.
I don’t know why we haven’t just sent Trident.......
Probably because Trident is a missile and they are not much use underwater.
water jet cutting plate steel before. Pre laser technologies though
Still widely used and same principle behind hydroforming
Yes, i have heard of water jet cutting plate steel before. Pre laser technologies though.
Still use it now for some alloys that don't like being cut hot, laser isn't all it's cut out to be.
Everybody is talking about them running out of air, but what about water supplies? Rule of thumb is that you'll die after 3 days without water and I can't imagine them taking much down with them..............
Rule of thumb is that you’ll die after 3 days without water and I can’t imagine them taking much down with them…………..
7 days without water, 14 without food is what I used to understand. I imagine for an 8 hour dive (which they were 2 hours into when things went wrong) they'd have had a couple of bottles of water each, so should be fine.
The longest someone is known to have gone without water was in the case of Andreas Mihavecz, an 18-year-old Austrian bricklayer who was left locked in a police cell for 18 days in 1979 after the officers on duty forgot about him. His case even made it into the Guinness Book of World Records.
The rule of thumb I understood as 4 minutes without air, 4 days without water and 4 weeks without food.
Although Google says after 3 days without water, you won't be in a good way.
Someone living in a wealthy western culture is more likely to identify with others the same.
A bit OT but we're all far more likely to become a refugee than a billionaire. Maybe it's a good empathy test to think whether we identify with someone that wealthy any more or less than someone with nothing, escaping a war zone and unsure where they'll end up in life.
I think we all fear death and that's where we should be able to empathise with people in this situation. Tbh it's the sub tech and the interest in the expedition that got me here but the idea they might all die, so publicly too, it's not good.
I think it's tragic in the case of the 500 migrants in Greece who were desperate. In the case of a wealthy explorer in the ocean or Everest.. not sure how to put it or what the point is, but they've had the opportunity to do and see so much in life, they died doing something they loved. It's sad, just different.
A flood in a suburb/town in australia tugs at our heartstrings more than one a mountain village in central asia, because we can identify with it.
Don't agree personally as it's not about identifying with people, it's empathy and I think there's a difference there? Maybe not, just semantics. I think you're right about why the media latch onto one more than the other though.
They should see if they can find that necklace the old woman dropped while they're down there, it'll be worth a fortune by now.
The rule of thumb I understood as 4 minutes without air, 4 days without water and 4 weeks without food.
Although Google says after 3 days without water, you won’t be in a good way.
It must depend on the amount of water you lose as sweat. In a dry warm climate that will be very different from the damp, sealed tube they are in. If someone went to the trouble of putting in 96h of air for an 8h mission then there's probably enough water to keep them going for the same time (thats a bold assumption on their design logic) - if each one took 2L of water with them (which seems a sensible amount for the planned mission then they know they have an issue 2h in so you ration it, and 500 mL per day will be plenty.
, why on earth is it painted white.
Underwater the light is blue-ish, so red/orange would just look black.
I have cut stone with a Nilfisk at work.
Underwater the light is blue-ish, so red/orange would just look black.
True, but there is also a risk of it being "lost" on the surface.
I don’t know why we haven’t just sent Trident down there to rescue it, I assume it’s got a tow hitch. Imagine the positive publicity Sunak could get off of that.
I assume by Trident you mean one of our Vanguard class subs?
They cannot dive anywhere near that depth - their dive depth is classified (and i don't know the exact number) but its less than 1000m.
Which is why NATOs submarine rescue dept can only operate down to 1000m - as if any large NATO military sub goes below that depth it'll have exceeded its crush depth and there won't be much worth rescuing.
I assume by Trident you mean one of our Vanguard class subs?
Probably better to assume it was a joke instead
A bit OT but we’re all far more likely to become a refugee than a billionaire.
Yup, I certainly don't identify with a billionaire anymore than I do a refugee.
I think the reason so much interest is shown to this particular story is that, like the Chilean miners and the Thai school kids, the story is both fairly unique and slowly unfurling at the same time.
Sadly a boat full of desperate refugees sinking is both fairly common and we usually only hear about it after the event.
True, but there is also a risk of it being “lost” on the surface.
True, and you'd think it would have a drogue anchor of some sort as well as presumably which should make it easier to spot.
DSV Limiting Factor
Sounds like a ship from an Ian M Banks novel.