New (to me) PHEV or EV

I’d buy a Zoe.

Sorry!

I would buy a leaf, Zoe or i3.

Probably a bit cheaper than your budget.
And hire an internal combustion car if there's long weekend or holidays warranty.

I doubt many hybrids have enough range on pure electric.

Should say we have a diesel car for long trips so this is for up to max 150 return trips, but mostly 30-40 miles city driving. Had almost come to a similar conclusion about the hybrids but any nicer alternatives to the Leaf or Zoe?

BMW I3 range extender?

I dont think id buy a PHEV, worst of both worlds, lots to go wrong.
Id really try and go full EV, I wouldn't stress that much about range if you are mostly around an urban centre, charging speed is probably more important to you.

I3 would be the logical choice buy there are 5 of us so need a bigger car.

Like the look of the BMW 330e for around £15k used but the electric range is not enough for the commute both ways. It could manage electric one way and hybrid on the way back.

I owned a BMW 330e from new for 5 years.

In some ways a beautiful car, very powerful, reasonable handling.

By the time I sold it at 5 yrs old it did about 8 miles absolute max on electric alone

It averaged low 40’s fully charged, but with no charge about mid 20’s (which is what it would be doing on the 2nd half the commute especially if in a built up area)

I would say the car would be wasted diff use in London

Yeah that was my concern about the PHEVs. They only have a short range to start with and no doubt will have degraded in a 6 or 7 year old version that I could afford.

So narrowing down to fully electric. Any thoughts on the e Golf?

I’ve had an eGolf for the last two years and it’s made a pretty good commuting car.

Range is a realistic 120 miles in the winter with the heating on but I have got 160 miles out of it driving like a granny with the heating off.

Test drove a Leaf before getting the eGolf and while it was probably technically better than the VW, I just couldn’t get the driving position to work for me - it didn’t have a height adjustable steering wheel. Maybe it has on higher spec/more recent models.

While I live in Gloucestershire I have driven it in London a lot, particularly in west London where the local councils have added charge points to the base of street lamps. And this leads to the one flaw with the eGolf - the charge socket is where the filler cap was on the petrol/diesel versions rather than centrally on the nose as with other EVs. You have to consider how you park the car so that the charge socket is on the pavement side and so that the cable reaches the charger. Not a massive problem but can be tricky sometimes.

Stick an autotrader search filter on for your budget and electric only and you'll see there's a massively limited choice, especially as you want something big enough for 5 people.

It's leaf or golf, basically...

Have you considered pocketing the cash and leasing for a few years? By then there should be a fair few more options on the used market.

Consider lexus/toyota too.
I wouldn’t write off phev totally, just be realistic about what they can achieve, they’re still better than a pure petrol/diesel. What sort of prius can you get for that budget?

Yes, the choice is very limited. That's why I'm going round in circles trying to balance something I actually want to drive vs cost. I have considered leasing but have never done it and I feel like I would prefer to put the same amount of money into a car that Will have some residual value in a few years.
Not completely opposed to a normal hybrid. I like the look of the Lexus ct200h but unsure about real world economy. Not really keen on a Prius...

GTE is great to drive if you want something with a bit of poke every now and then. However like most PHEVs it only really makes sense if your daily commute is 20 miles between charges and you have space to charge at home.

If you’re not after something with performance / range then choose a BEV such as a Golf E.

City driving will see you exceed the rated range in all but very cold conditions. I wouldn't bother with a PHEV at this point, as it'll just hammer the fuel economy trying to recharge the battery on the way home.

If you can get a charger put in at work it makes more sense. Otherwise your generic EV like the Zoe will work fine.

The problem with buying now is that you’re going to spend a premium on an electric or hybrid which will be very old by the time you come to sell it in 5 years. Realistically - what will it’s value be? Let’s assume you spent £15k, factor in repairs and servicing of £1000 a year over 5 years. That’s £20k.

Let’s further assume that you’re paying £4K more than you should be for it right now. So in 5 years, at the absolute best it would be worth around £6k. More realistically it’s residual will be £4K. So your total outlay is £14-16k (excluding fuel and insurance) over 5 years. If you can get a lease car, for £200/m over the 5 years, assume 6months down payment and you’re into it for £13k. You don’t have a car at the end, but your total outlay is less, your car is newer and your likelihood of big bills is small.

If you can get a lease car, for £200

Any examples.... looking at lease options on carwow that gets you an e-up .. Seems a far cry from the used vehicles the op is looking at.

Even at 300 quid a month the options are pretty dire....

Any examples…. looking at lease options on carwow that gets you an e-up .. Seems a far cry from the used vehicles the op is looking at.

Even at 300 quid a month the options are pretty dire….

This is the issue with buying/leasing an EV at the moment, if you want something decent size and/or with a decent range, they're just sooooo damn expensive. And they're too new to be much cheaper used.

Buying an EV now, it's either a cheaper low range supermini, or a £40-50k+ 250 mile range model. There's nothing really in between.

I'm waiting a few years, my diesel Skoda will be just fine for that long.

I have an Ioniq EV. The older ones are only 28kWh battery as opposed to 38kWh but that's ok if you are just using it for commuting and the range works. They look after their batteries well, range is honest and for me at least doesn't fall off a cliff in the winter.

When budgeting factor in the lowe running costs. We are paying 5p per kWh off peak on Octopus Go which makes our motoring cost 1p/mile in summer. That's going up to 7.5p soon and in winter we only get about 4.5 miles per kWh so it's more but still trivially cheap. The 28kWh Ioniq is probably a good deal if the range works because people will be scared of lower range.

Buying an EV now, it’s either a cheaper low range supermini,

I think the Leaf, Zoe, Kona short range version and Ioniq EV sit between those groups.

Yes this is the issue. Maybe it is a case of waiting a few more years. Any views on traditional hybrids like the Lexus? Would a, say, 5 or 6 year old version be much more efficient in the conditions described than a tradional petrol car? I realise it would be less pokey than my old 150hp Golf but it looks OK to me.

Thanks @molgrips. The Ioniq is the other one I was looking at so good to get a first hand account. The cost of motoring is the reason I could stretch more for an ev as would be covered by the savings.

Buying an EV now,

Local VW dealership quoted me a year wait for an ID3, so buying an EV now (as in now) seems like a dream 🙂

Thanks @molgrips. The Ioniq is the other one I was looking at so good to get a first hand account.

Overall it's a good car, I like driving it, but the infotainment is annoying.

I wouldn’t bother with a PHEV at this point, as it’ll just hammer the fuel economy trying to recharge the battery on the way home.

Nope. When the battery depletes the car reverts to standard hybrid mode. It will only charge on petrol if you tell it to. Passat GTE here and all return commutes (bar summer hols) require the engine to kick in at some point in the day. Not necessarily an issue if you are strategic about when this happens. Quite easy with the mode button.
Also you get the benefit of preheat function like an EV.
I probably do 80% of my journeys on electric. 60% of my mileage though due to a handful of long runs.

Yeah my colleague has a 330e and for him the engine kicks in in the last 5 or so miles of his commute. He charges at home so the engine doesn't need to charge the battery.

I wouldn't bother with a 2nd hand EV, the market is not there yet, you will pay over the odds for one and it'll be 10 year old technology with a limited lifespan. The new EV market is just beginning to properly get going with a wide choice of models but the prices are still eye watering and the waits ridiculous. Prices will come down, cost of ICE will continue to increase, at some point they will make economical sense as well as environmental sense, probably in the next 18 months. They second hand market will pick up in 3 to 4 years when the current crop of new EVs hit the market having finished the lease / PCP they were bought on.

City driving will see you exceed the rated range in all but very cold conditions. I wouldn’t bother with a PHEV at this point, as it’ll just hammer the fuel economy trying to recharge the battery on the way home.

That's not how they work. When the battery is low they operate the same as a HEV.

Yeah my colleague has a 330e and for him the engine kicks in in the last 5 or so miles of his commute. He charges at home so the engine doesn’t need to charge the battery.

I had one of the earlier 330e’s there was no way to stop it charging below 20% battery which meant it ate fuel. At OP’s budget he’s only going to get an early one

We have a diesel for occasional long journeys or big loads, but use an EV for at least 9 out of 10 journeys - I think you are in the same situation.

Don’t get a PHEV - they are a bad option for relatively short ranges, but a reasonable option for longer trips - but you have the diesel for that.

Don’t bother with a hybrid - that’s a petrol car with one specific clever way to improve fuel economy in some situations.

I’d buy a Zoe

That’s what I did second hand and we are very pleased - quiet, particularly good in the city and over 150miles real life range. But if you want something else just search EVs in Autotrader against your specific price range.

Don’t bother with a hybrid – that’s a petrol car with one specific clever way to improve fuel economy in some situations.

Not all hybrids are the same. And not all hybrids are bad...

A decent rule of thumb is..... Hybrid = Toyota...

But there as so many bad hybrids from other mfg you need to go in having done your research.

I came to the opinion that the premium was too much(for an ev with a useful range) and that a petrol car and fuel to cover 50000 miles was a better option for the same money.

Don’t bother with a hybrid – that’s a petrol car with one specific clever way to improve fuel economy in some situations.

Non plugin hybrids aren't bad, they give small diesel economy (or better) from a large petrol. That's all they do though.

And a lot more welly, the self charging 1.6 petrol we've got on order (who knows when it might arrive, certainly not the dealer) is 225 bph, the 1.6 petrol on its own is around 160 bhp.

And a lot more welly, the self charging 1.6 petrol we’ve got on order (who knows when it might arrive, certainly not the dealer) is 225 bph

Is it the rally version ?

Apart from paying less, I want to burn less fossil fuel if possible (and economical) so I do want to move away from a pure petrol or diesel car ideally. Still going round in circles and have noticed that the newer Leaf doesn't look as terrible (to me) as the old version. It's a bit more than I would like to pay but looks like less of a compromise than other EVs I've been looking at. Anyone driven one? How was it?

Try using the VW EV checker app on your commute, it was an eye opener for me as it said that like-for-like I was better off financially if I bought a 1.6d Golf over an id3 if I was doing less that 15k miles a year. Probably different for you with an urban commute.

Environmental impact aside of course.

have noticed that the newer Leaf doesn’t look as terrible (to me) as the old version.

It's a great car. We test drove one as well as a Zoe and a Kona. The Leaf was my favourite car overall, felt like a decent family car. Nice inside, good to drive, nippy. Couldn't fault it really. We went with the Ioniq in the end because the extra bit of range meant we'd be able to go see my parents in a single charge, whereas it was borderline on the leaf. But it's a better car I think. There are long and short range options available if you want to save money.

Try using the VW EV checker app on your commute, it was an eye opener for me as it said that like-for-like I was better off financially if I bought a 1.6d Golf over an id3 if I was doing less that 15k miles a year.

That must factor in a certain time of ownership though, as the EV stays cheap to run and the longer you drive EV the more you can offset the purchase cost. Also, does it take into account super cheap off peak electricity?

When weighing up wether or not to keep running an EV as well as the diesel, I calculated that we d have to be doing 1500 miles a month for it to be worth the £200 lease. Of course we'd never get an EV for that now though and Arval would be fools if they were let me keep mine going at that price, which is why they wouldn't.

Not all hybrids are the same. And not all hybrids are bad

And nobody said they were “bad”. But I think we are all busy agreeing they are an economy device for internal combustion engines, and not a form of electric vehicle.

I'm sure we all agree how ever Using less fuel and more so using less fuel in urban areas is a good thing no ?

I wouldn’t touch a secondhand ev yet. If there is a problem with the battery then your replacement Wii cost as much as the car. EVs aren’t yet well enough sorted imho to be a serious consideration

I wouldn’t touch a secondhand ev yet. If there is a problem with the battery then your replacement Wii cost as much as the car.

Not necessarily - they are modular, and a whole replacement is probably unlikely. You can just change cells. Although the labour wouldn't be cheap. Also they are often warrantied for a long time - 8 years/100k miles in the case of Leaves.

If there is a problem with the battery then your replacement will cost as much as replacing the engine in a ICE car

Sounds alot like my wife's colleagues not too old not high milage 1l ecoboost engine that lunched it's self....

A quick look on Autotrader is showing old gen Kia Souls for £14-15k. 110-130 miles range but that's actually realistic. The computers in these are amazing. And I think the older ones use Chademo for rapid charging so less problems with handshaking/broken chargers compared to CCS. Really long warranty too. Got a range boost for 2018 so look for an 18/19. We have a current gen and it's amazing. Will do 200 miles through the Highlands in winter and come back within 5 miles of the estimated range. This is something Hyundai group get really spot on, and it makes a huge difference to living with it. Our Peugeot van is all over the place, it loses 10 miles if you turn it off and on again! The Souls get a sort of reverse ugly tax, so better deals.

Thanks for the heads up on the Soul. Really useful feedback but the more I look into it the more I'm starting to justify to myself the newer Leaf, especially if there is an 8 year warranty on the battery as above as that's the bit that's stressing me out most about dropping a significant (to me) chunk of change on an ev.

You certainly can't go wrong with a Leaf either if you can find one in budget. Same warranty as the Soul, well known to be great solid cars. Same Chademo socket too - most of our rapid charge failures are down to CCS protocol issues, while Leafs happily charge away next to us...