Forum menu
So not arguing more strongly for Remain is why they lost in Leave areas?
Yes, they failed to make the argument as to why they had beened conned by brexit, the far right and the 1 percenters, FFS they didn't even try. Imagine your parents fall for a 419 scam, do you do everything in your power to stop it, or do you recommend transferwise because then they get the best rates transferring their life savings to Nigeria. Labour did the later by just promising a different brexit.
If you’re missing Binners… tune into James O’Brien on LBC right now… he’s doing a Binners on steroids this morning. Go and swear at the radio.
Look – the centrists are never going to get it
I am not a centrist, I have never been a centrist, I am way to the left of most people on here, so you can also **** of with that sneering label. What I am is a realist, I know that most people aren't going to vote for the policies I want so there is a need to sell the start of the process towards of moving to the left, demonstrate the benefits and give people security and freedom currently missing from their lives, before taking the next step.
Labour cut their balls off years ago when they helped nobble the unions.
I can't see a resurgence until there's a whole new generation in the leadership.
In Scotland they have to get behind independence or they will be completely eliminated (just one seat now).
Why?
The lies of 2016 weren’t properly challenged. The same team have repeated exactly the same strategy to win in 2019. What will happen between now and the next election to protect democracy from this approach? Why assume it won’t be just as successful next time?
Well if you're going to argue that lies are popular then, yes, I guess politicians will have to lie from now on. I don't agree with the premise that lies are popular, I think the electorate punish lies.
I also don't accept lies were successful this time, Boris didn't really "win", he didn't run a good campaign his approval rating was negative. Labour just picked policies and people that were never going to win no matter how much Boris pissed off voters. The Tory campaign this time is not an example of a campaign that will need to be emulated, quite the opposite.
Going back to the original question the main reason to lie is to generate "hate-sharing" and Labour don't need hate sharing their followers share stuff widely. In which case there shouldn't be a need for Labour to join in.
...but regards lies, if you have an electorate that want to be lied to there's nothing you can do. If you have someone judging and policing the lies of politicians than you aren't a democracy, you have a dicatorship and the 'lie policeman' is your dicator.
What I am is a realist, I know that most people aren’t going to vote for the policies I want so there is a need to sell the start of the process towards of moving to the left, demonstrate the benefits and give people security and freedom currently missing from their lives, before taking the next step.
Same here. I’m of the left… and agree with Corbyn on nuclear disarmament and other issues he has compromised on as leader. But I am not representative of the British public. I want a government that will give us some left wing policies, and aim to make life better for all in the UK… we won’t get that with a Tory government… and we’ll only ever get Tory government unless Labour tries to win over voters who are not of the left (or we get voting reform).
Going back to the original question the main reason to lie is to generate “hate-sharing”
Over simplification. Key lies (£350 million a week for the NHS, 40 new hospitals) were not about hate sharing.
Sorry but Labour need to look at root and branch reform. This election should have been an easy win for Labour. Inept leadership in not recognising that Brexit was a done deal and the total inability to deal with the anti-semantic issue were just the headlines. It went much, much further. The inability of the members to recognise that you can't have every thing that you want and must focus on the key parts.
The promises in the manifesto were wild that any child with an abacus could have worked out that they were unaffordable. They needed to focus on a small number of points (e.g NHS, Social Care, Education). Wholesale re-nationalisation of water plus other services is not wanted by large blocks of the population and allow the opposition parties to drag the focus away from Labours message.
Michael Foot lost an election by less. It took Labour years to get back to being electable. Without recognising where they are means that this process has yet to start. Momentum should be banned by Labour, it is in effect a party within a party. Sadly it is probably going to take another loss before the penny drops
Key lies (£350 million a week for the NHS, 40 new hospitals) were not about hate sharing.
Yes they were. The first is the classic textbook example that brought the whole idea of hatesharing to the UK conciousness and the hospitals was the prime example from this election.
Well if you’re going to argue that lies are popular then, yes, I guess politicians will have to lie from now on. I don’t agree with the premise that lies are popular, I think the electorate punish lies.
Well we'll get a sneak preview of that when Trump is re-elected. Nobody cares about the truth - maybe that's partly the fault of the internet - you can write anything you like and it is immediately published without any editorial intervention, or accountability.
What on earth will people chant at festivals next year!! 😱😱
No more cries of "ooooooohhh Jeremy Corbyn, ooooooohhh Jeremy Corbyn, ooooooohhh Jeremy Corbyn!".
Michael Foot lost an election by less. It took Labour years to get back to being electable. Without recognising where they are means that this process has yet to start. Momentum should be banned by Labour, it is in effect a party within a party. Sadly it is probably going to take another loss before the penny drops
This.
Plus Michael Foot lost an election by less to a far better opponent. Love her or hate her, Thatcher was a natural leader who could garner votes. In contrast the Torys were on their knees 48 hours ago.
Well we’ll get a sneak preview of that when Trump is re-elected.
Good point, I hadn't thought of him.
You are the mental case, it was Corbyns dithering that lost the seats, labours failure to make the case against brexit, instead promising just another tweaked breit
I have no doubt Brexit swung it, at least in my constituency, which just a few years ago to go Tory was unthinkable.
However, even before Brexit, he was a communist, a terrorist sympathiser, stood against our armed forces, against our Royal family, against anyone wanting to make money, too divisive and uncharismatic too lead, and with a front bench of complete idiots. That's not my opinion, it's the opinion of those who voted against him before you even get to Brexit, and it's an opinion that's been held for a long time.
They lost years ago and should have re-organised then. Without a huge shake-up Labour are done. There has been a complete reversal in political polarity here the Labour heartlands.
Seems Corbyn's back-tracking again. He's now saying "I won't lead Labour at the next election" but he's not resigning. They're going to have a "period of refection".
He'll be bunkered down with Diane Abbott and John McDonnell trying to work out how to stay on for the next 4 and a bit years. Prick.
Yes, they failed to make the argument as to why they had beened conned by brexit, the far right and the 1 percenters, FFS they didn’t even try.
Why? IMHO because the whole mess was used as a chance to get people to vote for a leader and policies they wouldn't under other circumstances...
What I am is a realist, I know that most people aren’t going to vote for the policies I want so there is a need to sell the start of the process towards of moving to the left, demonstrate the benefits and give people security and freedom currently missing from their lives, before taking the next step.
What seems to have completely escaped momentum is that promoting anything as a radical change is a vote loser... and an easy target.
FFS .... Brexit was sold as "not much change just better" ... despite it being the biggest change in living history...
They lost direction when they chose Ed over David Miliband. Downhill ever since.
100% (Although Ed seems a far better choice than Corbyn). And probably why we're in this mess. DM may have still lost in 2015 but at least he'd be less off the leave fence than JC was on and probably would have resulted in remain. Thanks Ed.
Corbyn was hammered by the press, had a manifesto so full that it appeared to most people as fanciful bollocks. To the man in the street he was an IRA supporter and then there's the anti-Semite stuff that happened and which he should have resigned over after the umpteenth occurrence. They were more afraid of Corbyn than Brexit. Wrong man.
Corbyn will go. Just need to hope it's a sensible person to take over that will appeal to most people.
I miss Blair.
You are the mental case
You might want to calm down (although I note your little rant has been deleted). I wish I had the influence over national politics you claim, but I don't. And I wasn't calling anyone a mental case, it was a slightly tongue in cheek comment.
Yes, they failed to make the argument as to why they had beened conned by brexit
Complete denial. Is this what we're gonna get for the next 5 years? It doesn't matter any more, people voted for brexit in 2016, and then they did again yesterday. Remain lost, we're leaving, for the good of your health get over it. There are many things the next labour leader has to get right, but first on the list is acknowledging this simple fact, and respecting the decision of the voters. Everything starts from this simple position.
From last night..
"Assuming BJ sees out his full term, it will be a full 50 years since a Labour leader other than Tony Blair was elected as PM."
There has to be a message there for the Labour Party. Either change tack to better represent the actual English electorate, or die waiting for its views to change
I’ll say it again… Corbyn should stay leader for a while… he needs (and I mean this practically, not vindictively) to own this mess, give Labour time to work our where it goes next, and make sure the next leader’s “honeymoon period” isn’t wasted on the mess of 2020.
I miss Blair.
Careful now the faithful will be screaming about all the extra funding our public services got, the record number of young people going to Uni, the longest period of economic growth in British History, the ending of the Troubles, the 3 elections on the bounce and the glorious sense of confidence and unity we enjoyed.
No wait, they'll just scream "Tory Scum" and the Iraq War.
This.
Plus Michael Foot lost an election by less to a far better opponent. Love her or hate her, Thatcher was a natural leader who could garner votes. In contrast the Torys were on their knees 48 hours ago.
She also had some idea about reality.
Kinnock made a great speech and kicked out a lot of the militants in Labour and possibly set the groundwork for New Labour. This needs to happen. Unfortunately momentum appear to behave like a cult.
There has to be a message there for the Labour Party. Either change tack to better represent the actual English electorate, or die waiting for its views to change
Maybe that is the message for the country - we are in effect living in a one-party state, like Russia, whose policies are decided by oligarchs and the media they control. The only time another party (effectively the same party, but with a different name) is allowed is when the oligarchs divert their support temporarily.
Exaggeration - sort of. But look at the facts - do the electorate actually care about the NHS? about the poor? the homeless? victims of Grenfell? and on and on. No - they don't - they only care about some fake emotions whipped up by the Mail.
he needs (and I mean this practically, not vindictively) to own this mess
I made a prediction the other day on the election thread. It's already panning out and gathering steam. The shock and disappointment is turning to anger, and the almost gleeful kneejerk 'we told you so' reaction of the usual suspects like Alan Johnson last night will come back to bite them. It's going to be an extremely messy, chaotic, and depressing civil war. Forget any delusions about winning future elections, the battle now is an existential one. There's a very high chance that in a year's time there will be no labour party, at least not in it's current form.
Careful now the faithful will be screaming about all the extra funding our public services got, the record number of young people going to Uni, the longest period of economic growth in British History, the ending of the Troubles, the 3 elections on the bounce and the glorious sense of confidence and unity we enjoyed.
No wait, they’ll just scream “Tory Scum” and the Iraq War.
add NHS waiting times, end of child poverty.
I can take it. He'd wipe the floor with this lot and I bet he would be re-elected. Trouble is Labours been hijacked
I can take it. He’d wipe the floor with this lot and I bet he would be re-elected. Trouble is Labours been hijacked
I think his Brand is too toxic now, but in his Day he'd have destroyed a Tory party as bad as we have now.
Starmer could have all the strengths of Blair, without the Megalomaniac tendencies of his later career.
reaction of the usual suspects like Alan Johnson last night will come back to bite them
Alan Johnson isn’t just a “usual suspect”, he was the man tasked with leading the Labour Remain campaign in 2016, only to come up against Corbyn’s and his handlers. He became overly cynical and disillusioned with what has happened to Labour due to that experience. It’s both personal and political for him.
Yes, they failed to make the argument as to why they had beened conned by brexit, the far right and the 1 percenters, FFS they didn’t even try.
So you think they should've gone all out for Remain? The Lib Dem debacle tells you all you need to know about that particular dead end.
There’s a very high chance that in a year’s time there will be no labour party, at least not in it’s current form.
I think the electorate have made it clear that this is what they want.
No wait, they’ll just scream “Tory Scum” and the Iraq War.
Out of interest, how many dead brown people is an acceptable number? Blair was certainly a very capable politician with a clearly articulated vision, but was pretty much busted by 2005. Time to move on.
I hate the idea of leaving the EU but resigned to it. Lemons, etc.
Corbyn needs to stay for a while until the mess has settled and a grown up decision about the next leader can happen. Although I think that's pretty much what he has said, reading between the lines.
But at that point, Labour have to recognise what will be electable is not policies or personas percieved as far left. Regardless of whether similar policies are used to great effect in Scandi countries.
@DrJ absolutely; This is Tory England.
Fervent Labour supporters really need to stop saying "Comrade" on social media.It both looks, and sounds ridiculous.
Give Diane a chance.
I think the electorate have made it clear that this is what they want
The problem with saying that is that this GE had Brexit issue all mashed up with party politics.
I can only hope that the next election will be fought on more sane ground.
The problem with saying that is that this GE had Brexit issue all mashed up with party politics.
Sure, but it's difficult to find an alternative explanation for Labour Leave constituencies switching en-masse to the Tories.
I think the electorate have made it clear that this is what they want.
The main thing the electorate have made clear is that they're not going to tolerate being given a decision to make via a referendum and then the politicians not carrying it out, even if it was only an 'advisory' one. That could be the only good thing to come out of this. It will take a brave/foolish politician in future who treats the voters as idiots, and it could be Boris's undoing.
500k Labour members, 80k momentum members. The best candidate will win. If D.A is put forward as the momentum candidate she will not win.
So you think they should’ve gone all out for Remain? The Lib Dem debacle tells you all you need to know about that particular dead end.
The tories made slight gains, the lib dems made slight gains, the story of the results is really labour losses, that is down to the campaign they did run, they got it wrong from start to finish and now we have to pay the price.
Seems Corbyn’s back-tracking again. He’s now saying “I won’t lead Labour at the next election” but he’s not resigning. They’re going to have a “period of refection”.
He’ll be bunkered down with Diane Abbott and John McDonnell trying to work out how to stay on for the next 4 and a bit years. Prick.
I've always thought Corbyn had a succession problem - dinosaurs of his type died out in the 90s. Jezza, Abbot and McDonnell are some of the few that are left. He was literally the only volunteer from his wing of the party to agree to take on the leadership election in 2015.
So I wondered if Corbyn's refusing to stand down because he can't find one of his own to carry the torch and it looks like I may have been right, the two obvious candidates might not want the job:
"I don't think there is any possible successor who is as blazingly ideological as Jeremy Corbyn. They'd be looking for someone who's vaguely at that sort of left end of the spectrum. So they'd be looking for, say, Rebecca Long-Bailey - broadly, maybe, in that category - I'm not convinced yet that she's absolutely decided she wants to be in it. They'd be looking at Angela Rayner - I've got a vague hunch that she doesn't want to be the candidate, we'll see what she has to say when she speaks on all of these things." - Pienaar
A lack of a crazy leftie might save the party - we could see a Starmer as leader.
Alan Johnson isn’t just a “usual suspect”, he was the man tasked with leading the Labour Remain campaign in 2016, only to come up against Corbyn’s and his handlers.
+1. Top guy, not exactly on the right of the party and saw how Corbyn/McDonnell work first hand and early on and spoke about it publicly.
Labour should go for P.R as well. If they mean the words of their teary eyed speeches last night then they must.
So labour lose in pretty much every northern heartland leave voting seat and the solution is to put in place a London based lawyer,who architected the very policy which lost those seats and is a passionate, committed remainer? Are you all mental?
It has to be woman. It has to be a leave sympathiser, and it has to be someone who connects with the working class.
Ang Rayner amirite Daz?
Possibly a more centrist politician than many would expect - someone with her legit school of hard knocks background would give the momentum clown circus short shrift I reckon.
The tories made slight gains, the lib dems made slight gains, the story of the results is really labour losses, that is down to the campaign they did run, they got it wrong from start to finish and now we have to pay the price.
Tiny increase in Lib Dem vote from historic low-point proves my point very well. An equivocal Remain position absolutely killed them in their Leave-voting constituencies, where the Tories made very large gains. You know this perfectly well which I guess is why you're using averages.
So Labour faces an existential choice: does it pursue all-out its newer constituency of the urban middle classes, or try to win back its traditional support.
500k Labour members, 80k momentum members. The best candidate will win. If D.A is put forward as the momentum candidate she will not win.
I don't agree. Out of any bunch of leadership candidates the most left wing one will win by miles. Partys protect themselves from this [1] by requiring a singificant number of MPs to nominate a candidate. Momentum reduced that number so it will be impossible to prevent hard left candidates from getting nominated. That's what the huge battles a while back were about and that's why they all but stopped after the rule change.
Of course, if there is no hard left candidate willing to stand the problem goes away...
[1] All parties have the problem, by definition members are more 'extreme' than the average punter - they must be they bothered to join a party. Left to their own devices they choose nutters.
So Labour faces an existential choice: does it pursue all-out its newer constituency of the urban middle classes, or try to win back its traditional support.
Or do what Blair did, appeal to everyone and clean up three times in a row, in spite of the electoral handicap of a deeply unpopular war before the last one.