Seems a perfectly reasonable thing to say as far as I can see . https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47301007
The way she framed her argument was vary poor, especially for someone who herself has (and probably still does) suffer from bigotry. She could have just said she thought that transgender athletes have an unfair advantage, rather than calling them cheats and implying that the only reason they are transgender is for sporting success, and will go back to making babies afterwards.
last year Martina was relentlessly bullied on twitter by Rachel McKinnon into deleting a tweet.
The article is in part a response to that. I'd imagine her patience has worn a little thin.
Many women appear to now be taking a '**** nice' approach.
In the continual march for progression, even the progressive reach a point where they won't drink the kool aid in order to be able to proceed. As there are only two sides, at this point they get kicked out the progressive club and become the enemy.
I think it's mental and would agree with natratalova essentially. Ultimately it's not really a conversation I should be involved in. It's a discussion women need to have out themselves.
You've just got to be so careful not to upset people these days.. There's bound to be [i]someone[/i] who takes offence! It's no surprise celebs like Beyonce, Kylie, Ed Sheeran, et al, choose to have no opinions about anything at all.
The way her physique changed throughout her career, and the shape of her arms and neck, make me think she has dabbled with things to give her an advantage, plus she is a lesbian, so I am surprised really that she is making these comments.
The irony of this is that all over Africa and probably other continents, "sports age" is a common cheat. You simply "persuade" the officer to mistakenly issue a passport showing your child as a year younger than they really are, meaning they will always be competing in sport against children a year or two younger than themselves. It's very frustrating for people who want to play competitive sport in their own peer group.
She could have just said she thought that transgender athletes have an unfair advantage, rather than calling them cheats and implying that the only reason they are transgender is for sporting success, and will go back to making babies afterwards.
I read it as suggesting the current system leaves the door open for someone to willingly cheat and obtain riches - which would be a genuine threat, no?
She's not calling TG's cheats, but calling out the current rules on participation for Men to Women.
The science argument is the bit im struggling with a the moment - IIRC, a former man just needs testosterone suppressants for a minimum of 12 months to be classified as a woman, with wedding tackle in tact. I cant see how that alters a life time of a mans physiology enough that they no longer hold a strength advantage.
It’s a discussion women need to have out themselves.
Except that many women expressing an opinion are being abused online and having discussion channels blocked to them.
I cant see how that alters a life time of a mans physiology enough that they no longer hold a strength advantage.
It doesn't. Also don't forget the skeletal advantage of males.
The science argument is the bit im struggling with a the moment – IIRC, a former man just needs testosterone suppressants for a minimum of 12 months to be classified as a woman, with wedding tackle in tact. I cant see how that alters a life time of a mans physiology enough that they no longer hold a strength advantage.
Rachel McKinnon is arguing that they should not have to reduce their testosterone AT ALL because they are a 'biological' women. This is beyond batshit crazy, it really is.
It doesn’t. Also don’t forget the skeletal advantage of males.
Quite, and sinew development, ligament development/strength, im sure there are more advantages.
Rachel McKinnon is arguing that they should not have to reduce their testosterone AT ALL because they are a ‘biological’ women.
And most of the statements im reading are as if this is fact, with others either willingly nodding along or too nervous to speak out.
In fact, I am concerned myself with being labelled a bigot or some-such just for merely suggesting that a woman with working testicles and penis, and no womb/ovaries should not classified as a woman in sport.
I understand that some women lose their reproductive organs or are born without, and I see the need for scientists to clarify thorough hormonal/choromosonal classification - but I also think we need to uphold some sort of common sense
but I also think we need to uphold some sort of common sense
Something that the world lacks...
Something that the world lacks…
Not really, common sense rarely survives first contact with facts.
TurnerGuy
Member
The way her physique changed throughout her career, and the shape of her arms and neck, make me think she has dabbled with things to give her an advantage, plus she is a lesbian, so I am surprised really that she is making these comments.
Don't you think that playing tennis every day of your life for probably 20 years is going to have some effect on a person's physique . Anyway she never failed a drugs test and her sexuality has nothing to do with the issue .
Sports should be split into people who enjoy shopping for curtains and those that don't.
Sports should be split into people who enjoy shopping for curtains and those that don’t.
Cracking, my running times have always suggested I'd be a good female club runner as opposed to a bang average male runner. As someone who oddly likes shopping for soft furnishings then I now have a fighting chance.
Curtains has something to do with how to categorise people I'm sure
Time for a reboot of Trans World Sport?
Maybe we should define male as born with insemination equipment, female as born with the capacity to grow a baby, and create a new classification the para-sexual athlete for all the rest.
(For sporting purposes only, socially it's surely up to the person)
The way she framed her argument was vary poor
It was very deliberately provocative, more so than I'd have been - even though I broadly agree with her.
I don't see a problem with that however. Silencing dissenting athletes with accusations of "transphobia" is offensive and makes those doing the accusing look like bullies, rather than aiding their cause.
Rachel McKinnon is just coming off like a rent-a-gob TBH. But it's no surprise after the way she conducted herself in defending her own sporting triumph.
If Navratilova is "stating the obvious" and trans athletes are "cheating", can anyone tell me which regulation the cheats are specifically breaking?
Nature.
This story is being featured on the Channel 5 6:30pm news bulletin.
Earlier this week, Dr Nicola Williams was invited to appear on BBC Radio 5 live to discuss Martina's article in the Sunday Times. The show withdrew the invitation after demands by Rachel McKinnon.
Channel 5 will be featuring Kellie Maloney.
The science argument is the bit im struggling with a the moment – IIRC, a former man just needs testosterone suppressants for a minimum of 12 months to be classified as a woman, with wedding tackle in tact. I cant see how that alters a life time of a mans physiology enough that they no longer hold a strength advantage.
This would be my route to that Elite license 😉 . I'm a less than spectacular second cat, but we regularly race women who can race down a category. I also train with a female first cat road racer in our club. I'm 20 years older and male. That puts us on a roughly even par.
In the geeky world of TT'ing, there is of course standards for men and women of all ages, and positions are awarded for time below standard. An octagenarian regularly smashes the VTTA results. However... when it comes to actual times, I'm almost as fast as the current female record holder over 12 hours. And faster than the legendary Berly Burton. You can level the field, just like golf.
McKinnon had a meteoric rise from no cycling to Elite world champion in about the same time it took me to get to thrid cat. From a background of badminton rather than the more traditional cardivascular rowing. She quotes power to weight ratio as being the same or even below others, but on the track it's POWER that is king in sprinting events.
The science is really whether a lifetime of testosterone exposure can be mitigated with a relatively short period of non-exposure. I personally do not think this is possible. The inter-sex arguments are not the same.
It's on Channel 5 now, with a panel comprised of three trans women.
If we can’t even define what we mean by “woman” or “female”, we haven’t a hope of agreeing categories for sports.
Time for a reboot of Trans World Sport?
😀 That's good.
True equality has one category only that is human category and just let them all compete against each other. To split up the category means we acknowledge certain gender is weaker. I want to see top female sport women play against the men. That should learn them. 😀
No one got an answer about which regulation the "cheats" are actually breaking then?
No one got an answer about which regulation the “cheats” are actually breaking then
They are competing as women, when they have a willy
kcr
Member
No one got an answer about which regulation the “cheats” are actually breaking then?
The conversation doesn't really have much to do with regulations, it would be more about what is correct to do i'd think. The regulations should follow that, not the other way around.
You've also got to question the idea of athlete's taking hormones to dumb down their abilities, particularly in this day and age of doping.
What/who actually defines the correct level of hormones, it's still a biological/chemical(don't know the correct term to use) adjustment. So seems well iffy to me. Not to mention other differences as mentioned above.
scotroutes
Member
It’s a discussion women need to have out themselves.Except that many women expressing an opinion are being abused online and having discussion channels blocked to them.
fair point, lets get to the source of that then. The accusation being branded about is of being transphobic.
That begs the question what is transphobia?
Am I transphobic because I don't find transexuals attractive?
Are women transphobic if they don't want to share a bathroom with a transexual?
Are women transphobic if they don’t want to share a bathroom with a transexual?
Seriously what is it with people and bathrooms?
It's a simple question, trying to see how far the transphobic tag goes. Is it wrong to have any barriers?
It’s a simple question, trying to see how far the transphobic tag goes.
Can we keep to sports?
Both Dame Kelly Holmes and Paula Radcliffe are now speaking out about this on twitter.
It’s a simple question, trying to see how far the transphobic tag goes. Is it wrong to have any barriers?
It is but also a pointless one, it must blow people's minds when they see the sign saying men and women clean these toilets. What is the actual fear (the literal definition of a phobia) after that it's about treating people differently for no good reason.
So what's your point there, transpeople should carry a sign and stick it outside the door when they are using the facilities? 😆 You point doesn't make a lot of sense.
The act isn't the point, it's about this transphobia tag and what it means.
Lets go to the first one am I transphobic cause I don't find trans people attractive?
The ultimate question is should there be any barriers?
technicallyinept
Member
It’s a simple question, trying to see how far the transphobic tag goes.Can we keep to sports?
Why, the sports question is just the tip of a wider question, no?
So what’s your point there, transpeople should carry a sign and stick it outside the door when they are using the facilities? 😆 You point doesn’t make a lot of sense.
Get over who is in the bogs with you. That is the point, if you can't have a shit because you are worried about who is in the other trap then you have bigger issues.
Lets go to the first one am I transphobic cause I don’t find trans people attractive?
not really, but who else don't you find attractive - do you find an entire group of people you have never met attractive or unattractive?
Get over who is in the bogs with you. That is the point, if you can’t have a shit because you are worried about who is in the other trap then you have bigger issues.
Most blokes don't give a toss, but a lot of women do. Get over your male privilege Mike
Most blokes don’t give a toss, but a lot of women do. Get over your male privilege Mike
The question is how do you know? Seriously do you, do people?
Get over who is in the bogs with you. That is the point, if you can’t have a shit because you are worried about who is in the other trap then you have bigger issues.
It's not him that's got a problem with it (sorry if I assumed your gender wrongly Seosamh), would you say the same thing to the women who are objecting with safety concerns? How do you think they'd take that coming from you?
