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Yeah, none of that is true.
I worked for the NT for nearly 20 years until they made me redundant at the start of the year as part of ‘cost cutting’ measures (even though I worked in an area that made a profit) and have major issues with the way things are being run but I can’t let utter nonsense pass unchallenged.
Yeah, I worked for the trust for 13 years until May, and can confirm that none of that was true.
I had issues with some of the Trusts practices but the recent move to actually attempt to welcome all sectors of society as visitors and volunteers (and not pay lip service), and to be honest and open about the history of the properties and landscapes I was in full agreement with.
As for being political - (being honest about the role of slavery I would argue isnt anyway), although the trust owes its origins to state legislation, it is an independent organisation, and has every right to have and promote opinions which relate to its remit and operation.
The ‘woke-turn’ of the NT
You do realise, don't you, that "woke" is simply being nice to others. That's what you're arguing against, being nice.
So why do these links need highlighting to visitors who just want to enjoy a day out?
They aren't. They don't have "have you heard the bad news about the slave trade" evangelists patrolling the place. People who don't want to bother about pesky things like "reading" or "learning things" are free to go and wander round and laugh at the statue of the boy with his willy out. In't choice brilliant!
Perhaps the NT should give them maths lessons too?
I know, right? It's astonishing that anyone would go to a historical building to learn about history, what a wild and crazy notion that is.
Firstly, I’m uncomfortable with the idea that my subconscious is the business of my employer.
You do understand, don't you, that the point is to highlight things that you might be unaware you're doing? It's not brainwashing, they don't strap you into the MindSuck 3000 and upload your thoughts to their central server.
Secondly, the unconscious bias training itself is scientifically worthless.
No it isn't.
All requires a bit of balance really, there will be many properties where the owners at some point had direct links with the slave trade, it is right that the properties history reflect that and be shared. However how prominent this is will depend on each property. If a large building program was funded directly from slave trading activities I’d expect slavery to a big part of the properties story, if at some point in it’s history some of it’s owners profited from the slave trade it should be mentioned but not be the main narrative (a modern day example would be the difference between someone having a pension that is invested in the arms industry and someone who works in the arms industry and built their house with the proceeds). Other properties it wouldn’t have any relevance to.
Absolute moral judgments about the values and practices of the past are called presentism. This is what the NT is essentially practising by vigorosly highlighting slavery links.
For what it's worth, these links were never hidden or secret, so it's then intensity by which they are promoted which is the problem; the mono-mania for slavery links.
You know, as an aside, this is one thing I've come to realise about the right wing over the last five years or so.
Many of the things they complain about, they have a very good point. You know, the "share if you think this is a disc race" posts on social meda, they often describe something which is actually disgraceful. For instance, as Cakeface's posts on here ably demonstrate, being forced into wearing badges which went against your personal beliefs, even if I thought those beliefs were abhorrent I'd be right there complaining with you about being forced to wear it.
But again as demonstrated here, it simply isn't true. They're getting frotted up time and time and time again over things that may indeed disgraceful or unacceptable or shocking, if they weren't abject lies. They might as well be getting cross about Batman.
so it’s then intensity by which they are promoted which is the problem
Do you have to swear an oath acknowledging your white privilege and whip yourself with birch twigs to atone for colonialism when you enter a NT property now or something? Cos I don't remember that from the last time I went to Sizergh castle.
Can you explain what exactly you mean by the intensity with which they are promoted?
the mono-mania for slavery links
Slavery/colonialism links are absolutely everywhere if you go to most historical properties in the UK. I imagine the vast majority of visitors are almost totally unaware of this, and will continue to be so despite this made-up obsession you are claiming exists.
Ah, see, a source, well done. Are we learning yet?
I'll have a look in a bit, I've got a meeting in five minutes.
FWIW, I've no idea whether it is or it isn't. I simply put as much effort into debunking your claim as you did into proving it, which was "none whatsoever." If I'd spent time looking into it, you'd then have just changed the subject so it's a waste of my time.
But again as demonstrated here, it isn’t true. They’re getting frotted up time and time and time again over things that may indeed disgraceful or unacceptable or shocking, if they weren’t abject lies. They might as well be getting cross about Batman
And then when it's pointed out to them that it isn't true they just ignore it and start getting frothed up about something else. It's the proverbial pigeon on the chess board, they're not here to debate or engage, just to shit all over everything and declare everyone else to be a woketard.
This is what the NT is essentially practising by vigorosly highlighting slavery links.
Can you provide examples of this vigorous highlighting please so we can see what is triggering your outrage.
Since I think we must be experiencing very different things. Maybe I got lucky when I visited (since have been limited times this year) and the volunteers werent being ordered to dress in sackcloth those days and walk around shouting "repent, repent".
From your link:
A 2019 meta-analysis found no evidence of backfire, but also “trivial” impact on behavioural change and only a small effect on IAT scores. This systematic review did find some evidence of effect, but only looked at the impact on implicit bias scores, not real-world behaviour.
So let's improve the training/research - instead of getting hysterical about how awful it is. Companies still use Myers Briggs even though it's pseudoscience, are you similarly outraged about that?
Slavery/colonialism links are absolutely everywhere if you go to most historical properties in the UK.
Which I would argue is rather uninteresting. Certainly prior to industrialism almost all wealth was derived from various forms of unfree labour. Do we need a big disclaimer on the pyramids?
What is to gain from constantly picking at the scab here?
I'm not arguing that psychological testing is flawed per se just this particular instance of it.
Have you seen this training BTW? They mix accepted cognitive biases with made-up 'cultural' ones such as 'affinity bias'. It's a hustle.
It’s psuedo-science.
link
That's a piece about a Channel 4 programme about a classroom project, and a specific implicit attitudes test. I've had implicit bias training at my work and that link has precisely zero to do with what happens in most workplaces.
I don't particularly like HR led programmes as a rule and have learned not to expect a rigorous evidence base, shall we say. But so what frankly if it's just a couple of hours to think about your assumptions and how to treat people fairly, why not make the most of it?
What is to gain from constantly picking at the scab here?
Rather obviously, studying only half of history, the bit that doesn't make you feel uncomfortable, is likely to lead to a misunderstanding of how we got to where we are, which kind of makes it pointless to study history at all.
More interestingly, what is to gain by refusing to acknowledge the realities of history, and mocking any attempts by others to do so?
Have you seen this training BTW?
I've had unconscious bias training. It was very interesting, and while it may not have 'worked' in the sense that I still suffer from some unconscious biases, it certainly worked in that I know how and when to question my immediate responses to things and examine whether I may be being influenced by those biases. Two of the most valuable hours I ever spent at work, in my opinion. I'm curious as to why you are so anxious to prevent people having an experience like that?
Which I would argue is rather uninteresting.
Cool, ignore it then, just like most people always have and continue to do. Seems quite blinkered to me but you do you. Personally I find the days of the triangular trade, piracy, slave rebellions etc absolutely fascinating and there's some amazing stories to be told.
Dare I say if you find it boring/offensive perhaps that's more of a reflection on you than the content.
I wasn't expecting this on a rainy Wednesday afternoon. Keep up the good work cakey! I haven't laughed so much since the SKS thread 🙂
Cool, ignore it then
It's never been ignored, that's a myth. The difference is that now that the Woke want to frame it as the fulcrum or hub of western history. A kind of essential guilt.
If we're just talking about 'facts', why are we not told that the vast majority of African slaves were actually enslaved by other Africans?
Still waiting on that evidence……… It’s almost as if you can’t provide any because it’s a load of bollocks and now you’ve been called out on it numerous times you’re going to just ignore it and hope it goes away
What is to gain from constantly picking at the scab here?
"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it"?
Still waiting on that evidence
The burden of proof is on you regarding the efficacy of unconscious bias training.
If we’re just talking about ‘facts’, why are we not told that the vast majority of African slaves were actually enslaved by other Africans?
It’s never been ignored, that’s a myth.
He was talking about visitors choosing to ignore info plaques, I believe.
The difference is that now that the Woke want to frame it as the fulcrum or hub of western history.
No they don't.
Which I would argue is rather uninteresting.
Then don't read the information provided about it when you visit the properties. You don't have to. You just don't want others to be able to... who knows why... it's very odd.
“Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it”?
It's worse than that. It isn't that Cakeface doesn't want to learn from history, they want to actually suppress any history that conflicts with the myth of British exceptionalism. Real 1984 stuff.
<edited in a very woke fashion for gender neutrality>
The burden of proof is on you regarding the efficacy of unconscious bias training.
No, that’s not what I’ve asked for numerous times, I want evidence of your other pathetic claims. And when you admit you can’t provide any then I expect an apology and retraction
The difference is that now that the Woke want to frame it as the fulcrum or hub of western history. A kind of essential guilt.
Again, please provide some evidence supporting your claims. Just for starters show us some of the recent NT materials which you find so appalling. Since we currently we have a few ex members of staff on the thread seeming a bit bemused and a bunch of punters equally so.
It shouldnt be hard if its so pervasive.
why are we not told that the vast majority of African slaves were actually enslaved by other Africans?
Something I would think would be highly relevant in the museums built in the old slaving posts on the African coast but possibly not so much in an NT property. Although possibly a couple of NT sites could have sections about the barbary pirates and their raids on part of the UK.
If we’re just talking about ‘facts’, why are we not told that the vast majority of African slaves were actually enslaved by other Africans?
SQUIRREL!
I’ve had unconscious bias training.
I think one issue is, like most HR training, its highly variable. The one I did was sensible and, as far as I remember my psychology lectures, based around reasonably solid research. I have seen some cases, although it might be handy editing, which do look to be absolute guff. Probably because the classic team building expert stereotype personality decided that they could handle unconscious bias just as well as they could team building training and, sadly, were right but just not the way they thought.
Wonder how long it’ll be until scoff rolls out the “they ask you how you voted in 2016 in job interviews”
Another made up NT ‘fact’ 🙄
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t’s never been ignored, that’s a myth. The difference is that now that the Woke want to frame it as the fulcrum or hub of western history
Its the only reason for the british empire to exist. without slavery or servitude of others we would have always been a little island on the edge of Europe. what made the british empire was the subjugation of peoples and the stealing of their wealth and land.
so yes - slavery and servitude is an essential and major part of UK history as it had a huge effect on the UK and its wealth
I suggest you read some history
I suggest you read some history
But it's simultaneously completely uninteresting and the most important thing ever to Scoff...I don't think he's going to read anything you know...
The difference is that now that the Woke want to frame it as the fulcrum or hub of western history. A kind of essential guilt.
No one is asking for your guilt. Unless you're an actual human trafficker presumably you've nothing to feel guilty about. All the NT are doing is putting the wealth and history of the people who lived in these houses in context.
Interestingly enough when Defoe wrote Moll Flanders there's a passage in which he describes Moll getting her inheritance and how by financial shenanigan's that it's been turned into money with an "English Provenance" What he means by this is that it's been laundered of it's colonial (and thus gained from businesses involved in slavery) origins...Even in the 18thC they knew and understood that slavery made folks uncomfortable. You're not the first person to want to look away from your country's past. I doubt you'll be the last
I understand that it's uninteresting to some. The solution is "don't read it, then."
The solution Cakey seems to be pushing is "prevent everyone else from reading it too." And I don't really understand why.
Well, I think I do, it's a fear of Creeping Beingnicetopeopleism, but I don't understand why that would be something to rally against.
Well, I think I do, given that one of the early lies complaints was being forced to wear Pride badges.
You can dress it up as making academic points, but letting
the Woke
slip through, complete with capital W, says it all about what you really believe.
Love that the gammonista are so dense that they think calling someone woke is an insult 😂
I understand that it’s uninteresting to some. The solution is “don’t read it, then.”
Yes for example unlike a couple of people on this thread I dont find stately home kitchens particularly interesting but I dont see my lack of interest as being a good reason to deprive those who are interested from learning the historical facts.
I do hope they provide some examples of what they find so offensive. Ideally a nice before and after update text so we can see exactly how it is being highlighted nowadays.
Love that the gammonista are so dense that they think calling someone woke is an insult 😂
Yeah, look at you being woke, ha ha! Blissful ignorance FTW!
Like "political correctness gone mad" of a few years back, "yes but woke" yet another tool to attempt to keep disadvantaged people disadvantaged by demeaning the argument. Like "all lives matter" - no-one's saying that they don't, rather the BLM movement is trying to address inequality. These arguments are simply a fear of losing white superiority.
Which may be what's happening here, an attempt to literally whitewash history.
Yeah, look at you being woke
Remember its always Woke not merely woke. Isnt it about time it got replaced by something else though. I dont recall SJW,snowflake etc lasting so long.
Pride badges.
Think it was the rainbow lanyards (optional)
A few volunteers resigned at my workplace; one of them had previously referred to a colleague as a shirtlifter and had somehow not been sacked. No loss.
Again, please provide some evidence supporting your claims. Just for starters show us some of the recent NT materials which you find so appalling. Since we currently we have a few ex members of staff on the thread seeming a bit bemused and a bunch of punters equally so.
Yeah, I'm curious about this, having been to about 7 or 8 NT properties through the country this year, most recently last Sunday. (Tyntesfield, near Bristol.) I don't read all of the info boards, but I can't remember anything at all about the slave trade in any of those properties.
Love that the gammonista are so dense that they think calling someone woke is an insult 😂
It is rather amusing - like when I was debating with an american who called me a "liberal" as an insult - I thanked him and told him its a compliment in europe
I dont find stately home kitchens particularly interesting
You're missing out!
As long as you don't skip over paying close attention to the period wallpaper upstairs, you'll still have a good 'ole English day out though.
Different strokes, different folks. But you shouldn't have to get on the internet to find out where the money came from for the build and upkeep of the property over the years... it absolutely is a key part of its history... just as much as who lived in it, and how they lived.
Yeah, I’m curious about this, having been to about 7 or 8 NT properties through the country this year, most recently last Sunday. (Tyntesfield, near Bristol.) I don’t read all of the info boards, but I can’t remember anything at all about the slave trade in any of those properties.
I think the whole thing is a totally made up news story. On one hand the NT are not knocking down Stone Henge and dumping it in the Docks at Bristol, nor are they building massive plastic slaveships to put in gardens at 18thC stately homes. On the other hand if the NT aren't doing anything especially different it's hard to imagine any kind of reversal when nothing significant has changed in the first place.
As yet nobody has pointed to a proposed significant change either way. - I've skim read the candidates words in the literature and there's no evidence of any battle there - well not over 'this kind of thing'.
Just a clickbait non-news article AFAIC.
But you shouldn’t have to get on the internet to find out where the money came from for the build and upkeep of the property over the years…
I was just thinking about my earlier post about the lack of info at the properties I've visited this year. On Sunday we visited Tyntesfield, near Ashton Court in Bristol. It's lovely - almost stereotypically NT. A nice place to visit. I did comment to my wife on Sunday that the family had made their money in the guano trade, as noted in one of the rooms. Wiki has this to say about the Peruvian guano trade - This was mined by indentured Chinese labour on the Chincha Islands in conditions which the Peruvian government acknowledged in 1856 had degenerated "into a kind of Negro slave trade". The firm's profits from this trade were such that William Gibbs became the richest non-noble man in England. I didn't notice that level of info in the house, and it would have been extremely relevant because I spend my time wandering around these properties wondering how the hell anyone could reach that level of wealth.