[Closed] "Muslim" terrorists attack French magazine in Paris

Cheers Jive and I get your conspiracist views and lack of trust for the security services/ the man and I have some sympathy. However you are on 10 and I am on 2

I thought the same re MI5 a mixture of preparing us for somethign and trying to get more power and resources for themselves

I alios think of 1984 and the newspeak need for an enemy to exert control. Once we beat the Russians we did not have one. Now we do have a new bogeyman. In many respects its one we made as Bin Ladden was CIA trained ISIL was created in iraq etc Whether this was design or incompetence i dont know but we have helped create this enemy to our very way of life.

Re TomW I have some sympathy for your view
Neither the approach of "appeasement" nor of "brutally attacking them " will end terrorism/extremism. What they are though is a measure of the content of your character and the content of your heart. We will not beat extremism by being better at it than them and surrendering our core values to the extremists. It may come to some gigantic battle and clash of cultures but we are some distance from this.

Junkyard - lazarus
Cheers Jive and I get your conspiracist views and lack of trust for the security services/ the man and I have some sympathy. However you are on 10 and I am on 2

Junkyard - lazarus
I thought the same re MI5 a mixture of preparing us for something and trying to get more power and resources for themselves

Two more dead, 20 injured. JihadiJean-Pierre and his bro holed up in a building.

Not sure that that's correct, French Ministry have said that Reuters report was wrong.

Chance of a talk down are slim

Sky, as usual, on the button with breaking news:

[url= http://news.sky.com/story/1404756/live-updates-paris-killers-in-stand-off ]Now[/url]

more than 1,000 police descend on a village north of Paris

Bit overkill

Not going to be any survivors from this

@ Digga I agree that the security services are stuck between a rock and a hard place , but, if i was in charge and wanted more money and power* I would go public and say with current resources I cannot protect the country

None of us know which of these it is

* or if i wanted to curtail freedoms or monitor the internet more or get more CCTV etc

Had a tinfoil hat moment last night. If the men who did the original shooting were well trained and disciplined as has been suggested on here, then leaving an id card in the car*, one of them (previuously not a suspect?) handing themselves in to the police and then going publically on the run robbing petrol stations etc be a bit amateurish for them?

Are these the fall guys making a scene while the real baddies get away quietly in the opposite direction?

*classic hollywood method of framing someone

<edit>usual disclaimer, as per usual I haven't been keeping up with all the reports of the event being discussed so could have it all wrong

more than 1,000 police descend on a village north of Paris

but, if i was in charge and wanted more money and power* I would go public and say with current resources I cannot protect the country

"Yes, minister"...

Had a tinfoil hat moment last night. If the men who did the original shooting were well trained and disciplined as has been suggested on here, then leaving an id card in the car*, one of them (previuously not a suspect?) handing themselves in to the police and then going publically on the run robbing petrol stations etc be a bit amateurish for them?

Are these the fall guys making a scene while the real baddies get away quietly in the opposite direction?

*classic hollywood method of framing someone

Why would you even have ID with you in such a situation, let alone leaving it in the car...

Why would you even have ID with you in such a situation,

if i was in charge and wanted more money and power* I would go public and say with current resources I cannot protect the country

I think this indicates that the murderers have been well trained in attack and withdrawal techniques, but haven't covered the necessities of covert operations.

In many countries carrying Id with you is a legal requirement

In many countries carrying Id with you is a legal requirement

I'm not 100% certain these chaps are concerned about the law, what with murdering innocent people and all.

I'll bet running with guns is even more dangerous than with scissors and you're already late to the party.

Contact has been made with the gunmen brothers, who say they want to "die as martyrs", says Yves Albarello, MP of Seine-et-Marne.

That made me smile. Thanks.

Looks like it'll be a happy ending after all.

I reckon these types of characters just didn't get enough cuddles when they were kids

Looks like it'll be a happy ending after all.

Better if they are captured shirley?

That's a really big building for two people to cover against intruders. I'd be surprised if a special forces team weren't already on the premises...

Junkyard - lazarus
I agree that the security services are stuck between a rock and a hard place , but, if i was in charge and wanted more money and power* I would go public and say with current resources I cannot protect the country

None of us know which of these it is

* or if i wanted to curtail freedoms or monitor the internet more or get more CCTV etc

His own political views changed (toward the right) after the Spanish civil war, his involvement in which demonstrated he sided with the view (of Tolstoy and many others) that to be 'good' it is not enough to be blameless, but rather it is also necessary to actively oppose the forces of evil.

I think he was referring to the ejaculatory reaction he and the rest of the STW wargasm crew will have from the news of their deaths.

I reckon these types of characters just didn't get enough cuddles when they were kids

Given the attitude to sex in these ultra-conservative cultures, I'd say the problem is that they haven't been getting any cuddles AT ALL.

Contact has been made with the gunmen brothers, who say they want to "die as martyrs", says Yves Albarello, MP of Seine-et-Marne.

I don't know whether to be happy, sad and equally very concerned by this. I imagine more Police will die. 🙁

Going back to the Madrid bombings they took out a few Police officers didn't they when they detonated the building/bomb they had as the officers approached.

When we discuss Islamic/ist terrorism on this forum things get polarised very quickly. Can I share this quote from Maajid Nawaz (of the Quillam foundation).

Dear Muslims, now is not the time for defensive posturing. Now is not the time for mere condemnation of 'terrorism'. We must go further. No idea, not even our religion, is above scrutiny. This principle is non-negotiable because free speech forms the basis for progress. We Muslims know full well that blasphemy taboos exist within our communities. If we applaud non-Muslims who speak out against racism and anti-Muslim hate, then likewise we Muslims must show solidarity and join wider society to challenge Islamist extremism and reform the blasphemy taboos entrenched among us. Kill blasphemy taboos. Don't kill people. @MaajidNawaz

I think it strikes the balance between the fact that most muslims don't support the killing of innocent people. But on the other hand there are aspects of Islam (blasphemy taboos in particular) which say that the victims in France were not 'innocent'. That provides all the 'just cause' that extremists need.

That really has to change, because at the same time that Muslim nations condemn the crimes in France they are hypocritically jailing and executing their own people for the same (victimless) crime of blasphemy.

Do Christians, or Christian countries regularly denounce stuff like this?

[img] [/img]

How about the Jewish faith?

Woppit - you'd think that but the recently court cases for underage Asian gang sex slave rings in the UK has also been happening in France

That really has to change, because at the same time that Muslim nations condemn the crimes in France they are hypocritically jailing and executing their own people for the same (victimless) crime of blasphemy.

you would not be in charge very long; that would be political suicide

adds name to the list

In many countries carrying Id with you is a legal requirement
I'm not 100% certain these chaps are concerned about the law, what with murdering innocent people and all

True can you imagine the checklist

Illegally acquired assault weapons - CHECK
Murderous intent - CHECK
ID - CHECK

I'd love to know what he'd have made of this.

Do Christians, or Christian countries regularly denounce stuff like this?

is that all muslim nations or some muslim nations?

2008

It's a legal requirement to carry ID in France, these guys will have been doing it all their life, its a habit. It could have fallen out of a pocket, it could have been left deliberately as a taunting gesture.

The initial operation was clearly well planned and cynically executed. The car crash (running over a pedestrian) may have put them off track, to hold up a garage to steal food cannot have been part of any plan.

Prayers for the hostage, I fear this is going to end in a shoot out which cannot end well.

EDIT: Telegraph newsfeed shows a tank and armoured car arriving

getting a pull for the car having a light out would be rather embarrassing for any would be terrorist - same for a random stop where you dont have id.

the tinfoilhat crew will love it if the suspects are killed.

Truth be told, I'd far prefer none of it had happened in the 1st place,

not only this latest tragedy, but all the way back to wars started by falsified WMD documents, the babies in incubators scam and the coup of Iran by Mi6+CIA.

[img] [/img]

back to wars started by falsified WMD documents

That actually went really well. It was the aftermath that saw the americans lose control of the situation.

Probably due to the known unknowns that they knew they didn't know. 🙄

Wiki says 23/49 muslim countries have specific apostasy laws, doesn't say how many use their blasphemy laws to indirectly cover it.

A very interesting piece in Al Monitor today

[url= http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2015/01/terror-france-charlie-hebdo-israel-islamism-human-rights.html ]Al Monitor[/url]

There are many quotes, here is one;

[i]We have been coping with radical Islam for generations already,” he said. “We are prepared, we are realistic, we understand and know what we are up against. They are not.”

I asked who "they" are. “’They,’ first and foremost, refers to the traditional Arab regimes, but not just them. The Muslim minority in Europe will raise their heads sometime,” he said. “When that happens, I don’t want to be there. All hell will break loose on the Europeans who continue to babble about their human rights and don’t understand that radical Islam lives in another reality, with a different set of rules, on another planet.”[/i]

"Babble", eh?

Nob.

DONK .. whether it all or most or many is not the point (I know freethinkers in Saudi are jailed and lashed and many are killed in ****stan).

The main point I was trying to make is that blasphemy taboos within Islam are a major justification for this type of terrorist activity.

For those who might argue that Islam should not be singled out I offer this from [url= http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one-murdered-because-of-this-image,29553/ ]The Onion[/url]

Published in 2012 and still no-one dead.

EDIT .. there is something different about Islam in the 21st century. But like most human constructs, it has to change from within.

The way forward is not to hate Muslims, but neither is it to excuse Islam.

Words like "Islamophobia" and blasphemy try to shut down discussion, and that can't be allowed if there is to be a solution.

For those who claim that the actions of western countries are mainly to blame, I offer the words of the french jihadists the other day "God is Great" and "We have avenged the Prophet Muhammad - no mention of drones at all - maybe we should take them at their word.

Anyway:

Military helicopters have been dropping special forces in fields around the village

Here we go.

whether it all or most or many is not the point

Police are now officially linking the Charlie Nebdo shooting to the attack in which a policewoman was killed in southwestern Paris yesterday morning.

jambalaya - Member

A very interesting piece in Al Monitor today

Funny how the (conveniently) anonymous Shin Bet source disagrees with the ex heads of Shin Bet in 'The Gatekeepers' regarding how successful their anti terrorist actions have been.

If i wanted advice on what to do with muslims the last place i would start would by listening to an anonymous Israel who was in the Shin Bet...who wouldn't eh.

Its seems clear Israel and its apologist zionists supporters are willing to forgo the babble of human rights [ not israles mind just everyone elses] and normal standards of decency and law in order [ like not assassinating your enemies onm foreign soil for example] to deal with the issue.

they have not been coping with it they have been creating it with their treatment. I guess that is what happens when you create a state with terrorism , it never knows when to stop.

Still you support them and criticise the nasty terrorists. You are both beyond parody and reason.
Whoppit was way to polite in his response to you

Taken from al monitor. Obviously this guy is a complete racist and abit Rivers of Blood eh Junkyard?:

[i]“On the other hand,” I was told this week by a former Israeli ambassador who has served in numerous positions in Europe, “one day, it has to end. Islam does not acknowledge other religions, and it has a substantial violent nucleus that is not willing to accept the other, his beliefs and lifestyle. The Big Bang will come, sooner or later. I hope, for the Europeans, that it won’t arrive too late, when they’ll be too weak to put up a fight and win the bloody war that awaits them.”[/i]

Junkyard like them or loathe them they have been surrounded on all sides and lived, worked with and fought external and internally their enemies.

A regular round of bus bombings like Israel suffered for years may soon change (and harden) our own perspective too.

Jambalaya - have you seen this report from our Saudi 'friends'
[url= http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/01/08/saudi_arabia_flog_man_facebook/ ]A man who supports feminism and is an atheist and used Facebook[/url]