http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43639183
A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder after a suspected burglar was stabbed to death.
The homeowner discovered two intruders in Further Green Road, Hither Green, south-east London, at about 00:45 BST.
One suspect, armed with a screwdriver, forced the man into his kitchen where a struggle ensued and he was stabbed, Scotland Yard said.
The 37-year-old was taken to hospital by paramedics but was pronounced dead at 03:40.
The pensioner, who suffered bruising to his arms, has been arrested on suspicion of murder.
He remains in custody at a south London police station.
Police said they were called to the property over reports of a burglary where they found a man with a stab wound to the upper body.
The man's next of kin have been informed and a post-mortem examination would take place "in due course", the Met added.
Only one person knows, and his interpretation may be biased.
But if we're speculating wildly, a single stab wound would be more on the side of reasonable force.
If there were 50 stab wounds, I'd lean the other way.
You would have to assume there is a bit more information that the police have that has not been released that has lead them to holding the guy. Probably a need more facts situation rather then speculate from here, but off we go, tea in hand and a nice bit of choc shortbread ready here.
Murder or reasonable force?
That is for the justice system to decide, it is correct that it is investigated, and that the mans story is corroborated or not by any other evidence.
I think I'm roughly in agreement with the previous posts about not enough details and the justice system will decide, but stabbed in front, self defence, stabbed in back, (i.e. burglar had decided to have it away on his toes) not self defence.
However, I find it hard to muster much sympathy for the burglar.
However, I find it hard to muster much sympathy for the burglar.
What if there are no signs of forced entry, and they were both seen chatting in a bar earlier in the evening?
He has to be arrested, he killed someone. Wait to see if he's charged and what's presented at the trial.
The BBC headline has burglar in inverted commas. I suspect this is not a straightforward case.
whose knife was it?
burglar=self defence
homeowner=gonna have to explain that it was 'just there' and he didn't get it out of the knife drawer
2 guys enter his house one with a screwdriver in what appears to be an attempted burgarly, the old boy is feared and lashes out?
Reasonable force if that’s what happened.
I'd agree that there is not enough information to know.
What is the actual legal test for murder in this country? Does there have to be any premeditation involved?
Enough of this considered opinion. They should castrate all burglars, including the female ones.
What if there are no signs of forced entry, and they were both seen chatting in a bar earlier in the evening?
Was he threatening him with a screwdriver then too? I reserve my right to change my mind once all the details are known.
What is the actual legal test for murder in this country? Does there have to be any premeditation involved?
Yes, I think premeditation is the basic difference between murder and manslaughter. Doesn't have to be much for premeditation, getting a knife from a drawer as mentioned above may be enough, but if he pushed him back and fell on a knife that was sitting upright drying in a dishwasher basket, then manslaughter.
I'm not a lawyer though, that's how I understand it.
One suspect, armed with a screwdriver, forced the man into his kitchen where a struggle ensued and he was stabbed
Don't know about murder but that's definitely karma.
I think once you're on somebody elses property, armed with something, with the intention of commiting a crime it's kind of tough shit what happens to you!
(Preface this with "I could be miles off the mark here...")
Is this not a minor bit of sensationalisation or a fairly simple procedural thing?
I'd assume that, as a person has died by another's hand, it's a matter of protocol that that other person (and their hand) are arrested on a 'suspicion' charge while things are investigated. If it was me, I think I'd probably accept the whole being-arrested-on-suspicion part just in case the surviving intruder wanted a second go for me offing his mate...
Excellent result, one dead scrote.
Awaiting the usual bedwetters blaming the tories that he had to go out burglarizing.
Reasonable force is not easy to define. If I found someone in my house against my will and they were carrying a weapon, while I'd like to think I'd have the clarity of thought to think "ah, he's turned, he must be in his way out, I'll stop now", I doubt very much I would.
It's also concerning that 12 of his peers might struggle to imagine themselves in that exact situation as well.
Without knowing the full facts ..full sympathy for the homeowner ..the burglar shouldn't have been in the house in the first place..and armed with a screwdriver ( as a weapon ?) was asking for confrontation ..that being the case I have absolutely no sympathy whatsoever with the criminal ...but as said right at the beginning ..without knowing the full facts .
If anyone broke into my own house and I felt that my family was in danger I would take whatever steps necessary to protect both them and myself ..
Excellent result, one dead scrote.
Awaiting the usual bedwetters blaming the tories that he had to go out burglarizing.
Based on what? We don't know who the person was that dies, what is actual intent was or the circumstances except that somebody is dead. No need to wait for the uninformed to shout about the usual crap with no knowledge of the circumstances.
But if we’re speculating wildly, a single stab wound would be more on the side of reasonable force.
If there were 50 stab wounds, I’d lean the other way.
I'd be inclined to agree, but in the heat of the moment if someone came at you with a knife and you somehow got a hold of it and they came at you, would you just stab them once? Or would the adrenaline kick in. That and I doubt after being stabbed* the average person who's broken int a flat armed is going to be calming down much. He's either going to die, or be very angry.
* gently, once, in self defense, in a loving and caring manner m'laud just to give him a message not to try again and to sit down nicely at the table with a cuppa tea to discuss the error of his ways until the police arrived.
the ending of any life - even an empathy free tory sympathiser internet hard man is a tragedy
homeowner=gonna have to explain that it was ‘just there’ and he didn’t get it out of the knife drawer
He is in his kitchen being threatened with a screwdriver by an intruder. I think we are easily into the reams of i got it to defend myself
However there is so little information here its impossible to say anything with any degree of certainty
If the Scotland Yard statement is correct, any other outcome but reasonable force would seem to be perverse. Surprised they have put out such a detailed line at this stage, though, when they presumably only have one account of events. Perhaps they are already satisfied due to the identity of the dead man.
Hoover there is so little information here its impossible to say anything with any degree of certainty
Not enough Vax.
Excellent result, one dead scrote.
Awaiting the usual bedwetters blaming the tories that he had to go out burglarizing.
Found one:
I don't know any facts in this case but I see nothing wrong with stabbing a burglar.
Based on what?
Possibly based on that the only bedwetter to post on her (so far) is OldTalent
What I read was that they had charged him with a lesser offence first and then rearrested him on a charge of murder so there is definitely information we are missing
On the surface, without more information the 78 year old was assalted in his kitchen - so potentially no shortage of knives to pick up and defend himself with.
Seems the other burglar didn't hang about to help his mate which was nice of him.
My great aunt woke up in her house in Eccles with a man stood over her and a knife at her throat. She died not long after having never really recovered from the beating she got after being unable to provide him with anything worth taking. The lad was caught by neighbours as he left the house and escaped a prison sentence as he claimed he only went in through the (open) back window because he heard a commotion inside and the actual burglar was a third party. He was unable to explain why he was so far from home at 3.30am. The lawyer ripped my poor old aunt apart as a witness due to her age and declining mental state. It’s fair to say I’m not predisposed to think too highly of burglars picking on the oldest members of our community. And lawyers come to that.
The thing about getting into a fight when you think your life is at stake is that it's near impossible to restrain yourself when going at it full tilt. Most fights like this will be over in a matter of seconds not minutes and can be finished before you realise it's even started. A surprising number of people won't understand that as they have never been in that situation or even in a fight before.
I see nothing wrong with stabbing a burglar
We had this chat at work once and the IT manager said he would kill a burglar if they took anything, I started to list things and this included his microwave which was given to him and did not work properly- what sort of person is willing to kill others for something of this value?
personally i value human life higher than my property.
What I read was that they had charged him with a lesser offence first and then rearrested him on a charge of murder so there is definitely information we are missing
The bloke was alive but taken to hospital where he later died - hence initial arrest on suspicion of GBH, then re-arrest on suspicion of murder. All standard stuff - he's not been charged with anything yet.
The test for using lethal force iirc is that you honestly and reasonably believed your life to be in danger and there was no other way to remove the danger. Jury are likely to be pretty sympathetic on that one.
Ah, thanks for that @martinhutch. Hadn't seen that. I'm guessing at the moment it is standard stuff where death by a weapon is involved (unless it's a car of course). Not fun for the old man though
It's worth reading up on the Tony Martin case (not the cyclist) who shot and killed an unarmed burglar in the back and was convicted of murder.
In this case, someone has died, another person is party to that death so an arrest is procedural and presumably required. He'll be questioned under caution with a solicitor present and probably released on police bail. Once the post mortem has been carried out he'll be questioned again, a bit more intensely if his original version of events aren't corroborated by the injuries sustained by the burglar.
You are allowed a "weapon of opportunity" ie if you pick up something to defend yourself with thats OK if it is just lying around. If you go find a weapon then its not acceptable. I have an antique ice axe on the wall in my hall - I think that might be pushing the definition.
Case law shows it reasonable force if they are coming towards you, not if they are going away. Recently two chaps were prosecuted for using excessive force - they chased the burgler down the street and hit him with cricket bats to his permanent disablement. If they had stopped when he left the house they would be OK
A acquaintance of mine was attacked by 3 men and chased back to his house when they forced entry. He hit one with a hand axe hard putting him in hospital for major surgery.. He got a very light sentence - no imprisonment - he was a tree surgeon so the axe was considered a weapon of opportunity but he hit the man outside his front door so considered excessive.
The Court will decide it gets that far.
TBH if the police arrive at your home and find a corpse in the kitchen with a knife sticking out of it, it wouldn’t matter if you were the Archbishop of Canterbury, they’d want a word.
Excellent result, one dead scrote
Should we stab/kill all scrotes who are doing things that are illegal ?
And would that be just scrotes or anyone doing anything illegal ?
On the basis of innocent until proven guilty....
Given the small info at hand, i would come down on him being innocent, and his force being reasonable. There certainly isn't any info available to me that proves beyond reasonable doubt him guilty of murder (nor would i expect there to be at this stage)
Can I imagine a scenario where the known facts, coupled with additional info come to a summary of unreasonable force and a conviction of murder... yes...
For example, home owner is strong fit, black belt ex special ops that belies his age...
Burglar is small weak slightly "ill" individual, burglar and homeowner have pre-existing relationship and burglar is "recovering" item that actually belongs to them... knife used in attack is large hunting knife that homeowner keeps locked up in the home office draw. home CCTV shows burglar trying to run away.... etc etc....
That being said, my prejudice/assumption would be towards the benefit of the "home owner" rather than the "burglar" although I would hope that i would be swayed by evidence and facts to the contrary.
The pensioner, who suffered bruising to his arms, has been arrested on suspicion of murder.
So arrested thereby giving the police the ability to properly interview him and collect the necessary evidence whilst also giving him some legal rights such as representation. Sounds like an entirely reasonable course of action to me and if the details given in the news article are the whole truth I'd anticipate that he will be released without charge. If on the other hand he is charged then I'd suspect that there is more to the situation than meets the eye and it'll be a matter for the courts, not the police or social media, to determine whether he is guilty of murder or not.
Should we stab/kill all scrotes who are doing things that are illegal ? <span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">And would that be just scrotes or anyone doing anything illegal ?</span>
That would be going too far but when they do get killed/ kill themselves we should as a society be happy enough to see them for what they were.
There was a local case recently where a young man stole a car and went joy riding eventually hitting another car and killing both himself and the driver of the other car. The bbc ran a piece a few days latter of his mother singing his praises with the usual 'light and soul of the family, forever our little angel' bobbins. For weeks later there were flowers (and cans of beer) left at the side of the road where the crash happened not for the innocent other driver but for the joy rider that killed him.
Unless certain sub-societies are prepared to remember our dead scum as just that nothing will change. No, it's not ok to going killing them, but it is ok not to shed too many tears where the scales of justice maybe overtip once in a while.
Reading between the lines... definitely doesn't seem a straightforward self defence against a burglar.
I'm sure more details will emerge, so I'm not guessing what really happened. If (and its a big 'if') it was a burglar who got stabbed in a struggle, then good on the old fella.
I think that he was on someone else’s property with the purpose of committing a crime, if he had been caught by the police he would of got his wrists slapped but this time he lost his life . How many times has he robbed people’s houses before ? Can’t belive all the papers say or news as they never give the whole story.
Excellent result, one dead scrote.
Awaiting the usual bedwetters blaming the tories that he had to go out burglarizing.
Phew I was starting to think STW had gone soft.
But - Scrote. Burglarizing (with a zee)? Some mid-Atlantic strangeness going on there.
I think that he was on someone else’s property with the purpose of committing a crime, if he had been caught by the police he would of got his wrists slapped but this time he lost his life . How many times has he robbed people’s houses before ? Can’t belive all the papers say or news as they never give the whole story.
So you just make your own up, eh?
Can’t belive all the papers say or news as they never give the whole story.
BBC appears to have presented all the facts that they have been presented with. The Police will have more information but that may not be released for legal reasons. The only time you can really review these cases is post court case or release of all information.
To suggest the news it withholding is a little disingenuous