I've been aware of this since it was first raised on radio 4 (before the Today Program snippet that was part of the programme), but the ITV drama brings it into sharp relief.
You may be interested in this petition calling for Paula Vemmells to be stripped of her CBE:
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/strip-paula-vennells-of-her-cbe
Well, no, the issue is/was the software was (as far as the sub postmasters were concerned) producing wrong numbers that didn’t match the cash they had to hand.
So count the cash, rather than relying on the computer.
It wasnt just cash, and they couldn't just count it as they had no access to their electronic ledger. So when the software fiddled it they couldn't check. Thats the whole point. Alan Bates was ex-IT so realised it was flawed.<br /><br />Fujitsu was a supplier and a few hundred yards from where I worked. Dodgy as ****. Also I hope Ed Davey, Jo Swinson & the Liberals get roasted for this as they were Post Office ministers at the time when in coalition with Crooked-Daves government and they dismissed it.
Did anybody notice Conservative MP for Stratford Upon Avon, Nadim Zahawi, playing himself in the mediation enquiry scene ?
That's him , I couldn't place his name.
@tillydog - that was exactly the problem, they were counting the cash, but the computer was telling them something different.
Well, no, the issue is/was the software was (as far as the sub postmasters were concerned) producing wrong numbers that didn’t match the cash they had to hand. Doesn’t matter if you took £1000 or £10,000 in a day if it’s not your money and the system says you should have £1100/£10100.
A cash audit showed no wrong doing.... In fact, this is why no wrong doing could be found in the initial investigation to Jo Hamilton, it's just that PO only looked at the digital figures and decided to prosecute based on digital figures only, not stock delivery and stock take (the actual cash and stock held in the branch). They disregarded the cash deliveries completely.
I run a post office, cash goes in, cash goes out we know how much cash we have on hand at all times we don't have control of the digital side. It was the digital side the horizon introduced that was in the wrong not the cash.
It wasnt just cash, and they couldn’t just count it as they had no access to their electronic ledger.
That was only after they were audited and suspended. We have access to transaction logs, which is how Mr bates flagged his issue with horizon - some transactions in his case we being doubled and logged twice. He went through every daily transaction and could reverse the duplicates. He still ended up with a £1200 deficit which PO blamed him for.
We as sub postmasters have to do weekly and monthly audits on Wednesdays. Count all the cash and stock and check it matched the system - this is when it flags a cash discrepancy. In Jo Hamilton's case she phoned the help line to resolve it and the fix doubled her digital discrepancy, it the doubled it again every week when ever she did a weekly or monthly audit but she manually lied to the system and said she was holding the cash (hence being convicted of false accounting). At this point she still had access to the digital log of cash in and cash out.
I was a regular customer of Noel Thomas from Anglesey between 2003 and 2005 and saw every day how unreliable the Horizon computer system was. When I heard a few years later that he had been sent to prison I was appalled and never doubted that he was innocent. The senior managers of Post Office and Fujitsu should be prosecuted for perverting the course of justice, and senior politicians from the three main parties should be publicly shamed for turning a blind eye while in a rush to privatise the Post Office. The face that these people are still waiting for compensation should be a national scandal.
The face that these people are still waiting for compensation should be a national scandal.
I'm pretty sure that most folks already think its a national scandal.
They are loads of things the government should be doing and should be a national scandal but, you know, stop those boats.
This is an interesting read for those interested in the technicalities:
For anybody wondering whether the programme is worth a watch, I would give you a resounding YES!
Not the real issue I know, but what about the house they have Mr Bates living in? Its amazing. It looks pretty much like my perfect house.
Yeah we thought that - when they were looking at houses sub 120k in ep1 saying "what are we gonna do? We can afford these!" And end up in a bloomin nice house in Snowdonia - if we lost our life savings and postoffice now, no chance I could afford to buy any house....
@tillydog I've just read that article (I'll hopefully watch the video later), and it amazes me the issues with logging, and that Fujitsu had full access with no logging of what they done while logged into accounts.
I can only hope that the ongoing public enquiry reveals who knew what and when. Going by what was written in that article, it appears the Post Office were initially unaware of what Fujitsu were doing, but at some point somebody should have been questioning what was happening.
The question I have, is why aren't all the convictions in this time period being quashed. A fair few of them are still being allowed to stand, when it seems patently obvious to me that short of catching a Sub Post-master walking out of the Post Office with a bag of money marked "swag" all other convictions are inherently unsafe.
As the legal system had a large part to play in these miscarriages of justice, I'm not sure the normal appeals process is the correct procedure here.
And end up in a bloomin nice house in Snowdonia –
The real Alan was on the radio on New Years Day, lovely chap. Talked about refusing an OBE bevause it was farcical that the CEO woman had received one.
Anyway, he was asked if the TV show was accurate and he said yes, except the house they moved to wasn't a twee cottage.
The question I have, is why aren’t all the convictions in this time period being quashed.
Many pleaded guilty out of terror and a bid to escape prison. They literally felt they had no other option because Horizon was deemed infallible. This is a tough hurdle to overcome in terms of getting the verdict overturned. I'm hoping one of the things that comes out of the inquiry is evidence of the sustained pressure and intimidation employed by Post Office Ltd to coerce these poor people into admitting it.
But yes, you'd have thought that the government should be moving to assist anyone who has been convicted on the basis of Horizon data, regardless of whether they pleaded guilty or not. Having said that, their arms-length approach to the Post Office means that even compensation hasn't been forthcoming in those who have had their convictions quashed.
Surely, a coerced guilty plea secured through presentation of evidence susequently considered baseless (and proven to be the basis of lies) means the conviction was also baseless?
Surely, a coerced guilty plea secured through presentation of evidence susequently considered baseless (and proven to be the basis of lies) means the conviction was also baseless?
I'm not sure there's even a mechanism to rescind a guilty plea?
"I’m not sure there’s even a mechanism to rescind a guilty plea?"
There is. Some postmasters have been cleared even though they pled guilty.
"In Hamilton & Ors v Post Office Limited [2021] EWCA Crim 577, the Court Appeal quashed the dishonesty convictions of many Sub-Post Masters, many of whom had pleaded guilty. There were significant disclosure failings in this case in that the defendants were not informed by the Post Office of known issues relating to the reliabity of the ‘Horizon’ computer system, when data from that very system was relied upon as robust and reliable evidence in the Post Office prosecution cases.This case falls within the the Category 2 unlawfulness above."
https://www.defence-barrister.co.uk/pleading-guilty-part-4
It was interesting that this topic came up at work today in a discussion with some of our newer leaders as an example of how culture can still be poor even when you think you've got a 'diverse' leadership team. The mistreatment of staff and those that leaders have a duty of care towards isn't resumed to a single demographic but we still buy into divisive arguments. See also Patel and Bravermen as further examples of how some individuals who ultimately give zero ****s about the minions.
Was interesting to listen in, and fair play to them for using this to pick apart their own team culture.
See also Patel and Bravermen as further examples of how some individuals who ultimately give zero **** about the minions.
Psychopathy isn't an exclusively male trait.
Anyway, the petition to strip Paula Vennells of her CBE that was started 3 years ago had fewer than 5000 signatures as of two days ago. This evening, it passed a quarter of a million and is still rising rapidly. The power of television.
The mistreatment of staff and those that leaders have a duty of care towards isn’t resumed to a single demographic but we still buy into divisive arguments
I am not aware of that argument generally being made vs the one that generally speaking a more diverse team can better represent the overall company. It depends though on whether the company culture is actually diverse or if it does have a bias in it against certain groups. If the latter then those members of those groups who have got embedded are likely to be overcompensating.
The classic example is "queen bee syndrome" although like most social science the evidence is mixed and debated.
Anyone who’s been to the Nant Francon valley will prob have a vague idea of where Alan’s TV house is…as you pass the Glyders on your left and Llyn Ogwen on the right, the road turns right, heading down into Bethesda just between Pen y Ole Wen on the right and Y Gran on the left…the house will be on the LH of the valley within 1/2 mile of that turn..I Googled it a few days ago. There are plenty of clues in the programme but Hayley Cropper painting outside the house was the clincher!
Of course in Scotland there are no private prosecutions so any Post Office prosecutions had to be done via reporting them to the PF. Seems the Horizon issues were known at least a decade ago with Scottish cases being dropped.
They still seem to have got a lot of dubious convictions through prior to that just like elsewhere in the UK.
2013 was the turning point year with the reporting from computer weekly and, I think by that time, Private Eye helping get the attention of MPs and various other people and any SPOs being dragged to court being able to produce a shedton of evidence that Horizon was anything but always right.
It was only in September last year that the first case got overturned in Scotland.
The question I have, is why aren’t all the convictions in this time period being quashed.
it would require a change in the law to simply quash them all automatically, so they go through the formal process of Appeal.
A fair few of them are still being allowed to stand, when it seems patently obvious to me that short of catching a Sub Post-master walking out of the Post Office with a bag of money marked “swag” all other convictions are inherently unsafe.
they are being allowed to stand in the sense that the appeal court has upheld them as sound convictions or that they just haven’t made it to court yet (or were some not being represented by the same lawyers - who have made a mess of it?) ? Some people may have decided not to ask the offences to be referred to the appeal court, or they may still be in the system - usually appeals with a similar “issue” are lumped together but that doesn’t mean all the Horizon cases - just all the cases which used the same specific tactics, or the same point of law or very similar cases evidentially etc. if you think that’s too slow - finding for the courts comes from government!
As the legal system had a large part to play in these miscarriages of justice, I’m not sure the normal appeals process is the correct procedure here.
the only alternative is for the government to change the law - that’s a radical move just because it’s high profile - the correct process does seem to be the appeal court, and it seems to be largely effective but very, very slow. An important point is that it took very expensive lawyers spotting a way to make a big payout for anyone to really understand the legal deficiencies in the cases (eg. The basic question of contract law; the difference between liable for all losses and liable for losses which were your fault (a point perhaps too subtle for the programme but I believe was a key point of some cases - because the PO didn’t seem to know it’s own rules and wrote letters misleading people) as well as issues of fairness because a suspended manager had no way to access data to support their defence. Those were all issues that a well funded, competent defence lawyer could have brought out in the original trials. Next time someone tells you legal aid is a gravy train - remember any of us could find ourselves wrongly accused, out a job and desperate. You want the best representation. The purpose of defence lawyers is not to get the guilty off as everyone assumes, it’s to stop the state taking piss in prosecutions. A right to a fair trial is a key part of the Human Rights Act that some people are quite keen to repeal - no worries there because the powers of the state would never do anything to harm legitimate citizens eh?
Oh my...
https://twitter.com/TomWitherow/status/1743018338719044089
Please, please, please let this be true...
To cap this off yesterday Fujitsu were awarded another contract from DEFRA worth £19m! https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/04/fujitsu_flood_contract_extension/ The comments are worth a read where one author alleges that they Fujitsu have stolen around £800m of pension benefits from those deador close to death and not refunded the money to us.
Why are we giving more money to this fraudulent company?
Thankfully post office and Fujitsu parted ways a few years ago. We've a new system replacing Horizon over the next couple of years - not sure who the partner company is though.
Just finished watching this.
The only word for it is disgusting.
Throwing innocent people under the bus in order to protect a company's reputation. Its corporate malfeasance at its worse
Throwing innocent people under the bus in order to protect a company’s reputation.
Literally, in the case of the Martin Griffiths...😞
I don’t think this has been picked up yet, apologies if it has -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67899189
hopefully that will link to the news yesterday that the police are investigating.
It comes as 50 new potential victims of the scandal have contacted lawyers following an ITV drama about the issue.
☝️From the BBC story
All postoffices and current/previous subpostmasters were asked a couple years ago if they had had any losses suspected due to the horizon system and if they would be willing to bring a new case.
The rumor within the PO community is that over 8000 ! of the 11500 current postoffices replied.
We are deep enough in the thread for our story now I think.
We bought a shop and postoffice' in 2015, sank life savings into it rather than a house, the shop was cheaper than a mortgage deposit as it was failing. Wife had been working there part time, I worked for a supermarket as a PM so knew a fair bit of how to run a shop, even though I was in the head office side.
2months later in we had a -£600 anomaly appear in horizon on the monthly stock take (no warning before on daily or weekly cashups). Took three days of discussion with the help desk and alot of stress trying to sort it, wife couldn't work out what she had done wrong etc. Well £600 was around 2months earnings on po at the time so we said we'd pay it but cancel our contract and shut down the PO (as if it happened regularly we'd be making a loss) as we were with our rights at the time to cancel the contract. Within an hour post office 'found the issue', a glitch in the system and remotely sorted it out. This would have been 2016 so PO would have been well aware of the issues horizon has.
As we lost no money, and didn't have to pay, we haven't pursued - but I'll bet every postoffice operating prior to 2014 would have had 'issues' and lost money.
The shop has been doing a fair bit better in recent years and we've doubled the postoffice trade. This year we've had to sink the rest of our savings into it though as inflation has hit hard. Next year will be interesting if stock prices continue to rise.
£600 was around 2months earnings on po at the time<br />
It’s not exactly a money spinner is it?
Not a criticism of you, just a comment on how much responsibility it is for quite a small amount of money.
The point is that PO currently have11500 offices. What if they regularly have lots of small losses which need the subpost master to make up with their own cash, for example 11500x600= £6.9million.
Even if that horizon anomaly happens once a year in every office between 1999 and 2014 that's over £10billion.
Also there were over 15000 postoffices in 2005, so you can increase that figure significantly. I wonder how many shut down, and we're happy to do so because of losses incurred by horizon - the scandal goes much deeper than the personal losses incurred by postmasters. The community and cultural loss hasn't even been looked at.
As for 300 a month, like I said our po wasn't performing at the time (would have been one of the worst cases I'd seen). We've significantly increased trade since, but yes it's not a money spinner for us. We don't get a wage, we work on comission which is pence per item not pounds.
The second most shocking thing after the blatant injustice is just how slowly justice has come and how slowly it has reached public consciousness. I have been seeing snippets about this in Private Eye for years as the challenges mounted. They catalogued the consequences - dreadful stories of destitution and suicides - too. But the wheels of justice have turned so slowly. I really hope that people are prosecuted for false testimony. It’s just incredible.
Anyway I reckon that if you want to know what the next big scandal is, I’d suggest subscribing to Private Eye to support their journalism because they were on it near the start.
Much as I feel I should apologise for having read this.... I stumbled across it this morning on Google News.... The Daily Fail. Noses in troughs etc.
https://www.****/debate/article-12932027/post-office-scandal-itv-drama-gilded-lives.html
It's bizarre how it's taken a tv drama to make the Met take an interest.
As above, it's been clearly laid out in Private Eye for years that this was a deliberate act by PO to stiff it's franchisees rather than get it's own house in order.
They repeatedly perjured themselves to make sure innocent people went to jail rather than sort out Horizon.
Vennels should be in jail, not making a balls of another big directorship.
It’s bizarre how it’s taken a tv drama to make the Met take an interest.
You haven't read the BBC article then?
"The investigation was launched in January 2020 following a referral from the DPP [Director of Public Prosecutions]".
You haven’t read the BBC article then?
“The investigation was launched in January 2020 following a referral from the DPP [Director of Public Prosecutions]”.
Launched January 2020. Interviewed 2 people under caution. No arrests made.
Proceeding at pace I see.
They repeatedly perjured themselves
Angela Van Den Bogerd was stupid enough to do it on record. In the second trial she contradicted her recorded testimony in the first trial.
What if they regularly have lots of small losses which need the subpost master to make up with their own cash, for example 11500×600= £6.9million.
Even if that horizon anomaly happens once a year in every office between 1999 and 2014 that’s over £10billion.
not to diminish the point you were making - but 11500*600*15 is not 10 Billion.
