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If you're joking, you're not funny.
If you're not, jog on and don't let the door hit your arse on the way out.
Completly appaling that it is being discussed here. None of our business. Even worse is that I read that some pop singer has abused her posotion at Glastonbury to rant on about it.
Don’t get me wrong, I agree but but there is a time and a place.
there is a time and a place.
Yep. ‘Here’, and ‘now’.
Why is it appalling to discuss it on here? It needs discussing everywhere as far as I’m concerned and it is everyone’s business. What’s the time and place in your opinion then? Why open a thread on a subject just to tell us we shouldn’t be discussing it then offer no context or argument for your reasoning?
Is this the rare instance of a "righty hand-wringer"?
Even worse is that I read that some pop singer has abused her posotion at Glastonbury to rant on about it. Don’t get me wrong
Was it Chrissy Hynde?
Nah Billie Eilish, she's ace and EXACTLY the person who should shout loudly about this.
Edit: ah yeah i see it now well done.
Religion has no place whatsoever in the debate unless the woman considering an abortion is religious.
Religion is a private or personal matter as far as I am concerned. IMO you do as you wish so long as you bear your own consequences by not blaming others. That's just me being religious but others may not see it that way hence the problem ...
The problem is when people use religion to forward their own objective just as their counterpart who don't believe in religion but perceive a "correct" way to move forward in society. Both are quick to dismiss each others at every opportunity. No different. It's a matter who can gain the upper hand to impose.
As for the rights to abortion, different religions tend to view the matter differently but with one commonality being an objection to destroy innocent life (human). However, some tend not to intervene in individual decision while others take that decision away from individual by imposing on their "correct religious" views.
Surely the foetuses go straight to heaven to enjoy eternal life? Don’t think the pro-lifers have quite thought this one through.
No, that's incorrect. On the contrary the fetus might actually suffer an eternal life until such time as it is time for them to come into being again. i.e. being conceived as fetus. No one has the automatic rights to go to heaven regardless.
The basic explanation is this. (In religious views) The fetus coming into being the moment it is conceived whether it is a second, a minute or the moment a person finds out. The fetus coming into being due to the parents' karma (sex) and the karma of the fetus. Since they are all karmic related, especially the fetus, the probability of it going to "heaven" is very slim because being conceived or born is actually due to "bad" karma accumulation. Being "killed" after being conceived is also the karma of the fetus (not to be born but to be reassign to another realm), because their energy or soul etc will have to linger around the human realm for a long time to endure all the suffering and sadness of being rejected.
Hence, many parents who experienced abortion can never be at peace in this life without knowing the energy of the aborted fetus is still hanging around, i.e. all parties will constantly suffer or unhappy etc. Depending on the karma of the parents and fetus, sometimes the energy of the fetus will hang around (like a child growing) the parents until such time as the fetus has exhausted its karma and return to "heaven". At other time the energy of the fetus will continue to "exist" even when the parents are dead, rendering the energy of the fetus as "wondering" spirit roaming the earth in sadness and suffering. The sadness or suffering is immense and until such time as someone guides it back to the original source "heaven", it will continue to suffer. Some (energy of the fetus) will seek help from any energy source (other people) they can hang on to in the hope that they will be loved and guide towards the light to end the suffering.
As for the parents that aborted the fetus (who ever decide), they have two ways to deal with the situation ... only if they believe.
1. Ask for forgiveness and explain to the fetus the reason for the abortion. In the hope that the energy of the fetus will forgive them and detach itself from them. i.e. letting go as in none attachment. The more it doesn't forgive the more it attaches and all will suffer.
2. Depending on the karma of the fetus, a special religious ceremony (your own) has to be performed to either return the energy of the fetus to the source or to reduce its suffering if it is not the time for it to return to source yet.
If anyone of you has experienced abortion, try to recall if your dream ever featured a child or person constantly of the age from the abortion date. If so then it has never leaved you from the day you aborted it. Now, look at your life to see if you are happy. If not, then it might have something to do with the energy of the aborted fetus long time ago. It is trying to gain your attention due to suffering or in worst case scenario taking revenge.
Anyway, do as you wish but remember to bear the consequences.
Completly appaling that it is being discussed here. None of our business. Even worse is that I read that some pop singer has abused her posotion at Glastonbury to rant on about it.
Don’t get me wrong, I agree but but there is a time and a place.
Odd comment. Is it being ironic, or serious? It could go either way to be honest, and I don’t know the poster well enough to judge.
Don't a lot of Americans also say that immediately after a school shooting "is not the right time" to discuss the gun problem that exists in the US?
The basic explanation is this
That probably took a fair while to type out. It was wasted.
That probably took a fair while to type out. It was wasted.
Changed the habit of a lifetime and read the last two paragraphs. No idea what it’s on about.
That probably took a fair while to type out. It was wasted.
The explanation is only relevant to those who try to understand it from religion perspective otherwise it's just another belief. As for bearing the consequences that too is to say that we bear the responsibility for our own actions whatever they are.
Changed the habit of a lifetime and read the last two paragraphs. No idea what it’s on about.
As explained above. It is not for everyone and not many will understand it anyway. I just posted it for those who are curious of the religious action.
Personally, I tend to see it as individual choice ...
Talking about a religious perspective and then going on about Karma?? This is not relevant to the vast majority of pro-life Americans who are generally fundamental Christians. Karma is not a principle that has any relevance to the Bible or Christianity in general.
The explanation is only relevant to those who try to understand it from religion perspective
Yeah. Religion used to suppress the rights of people, especially women, not really news.
Karma is not a principle that has any relevance to the Bible or Christianity in general.
The emphasis is slightly different but there is a parallel. Remember the phrase "You reap what you sow"?
Yeah. Religion used to suppress the rights of people, especially women, not really news.
Not solely a religion thing although they do feature prominently for a long time because the system or society was geared in that way. Modern system, call it what you wish, is just much more sophisticated way of coercing or manipulating others, but fundamentally they are the same but just same trick in different era. i.e. The majority suppressing the minority in the name of whatever (large number rules over smaller number or more power rules over less power whatever)
The majority suppressing the minority in the name of whatever
Or as seems to be the case in the US, the RW Christian nutjobs in a minority, suppressing the majority.
There is no popular mandate for banning abortion, I think there are no states in the US where support support for abortion rights is lower than 55-60%.
.
America is clearly worse in terms of mandates from the people being consistently ignored in favour of the few in power, but not sure the UK is much different these days, with people running the country that couldn’t give a toss that almost nobody in the country wants them there.
Makes you wonder what the point of a so called democracy really is.
I'm now of the opinion that the right wing of the USA doesn't really care about abortion, they are simply using it as a way to set people against the Democrats and move them towards Republicans. As in "this is awful, and by the way we want to ban it so you can vote for us". Same for gun laws and the healthcare thing.
Millions of people irrevocably harmed, millions of lives made shit, just so that someone can win votes. That's actually far more sinister than if they really did care about the foetuses.
CZ - that's a sobering read....
Definitely feels like something significant has shifted over the weekend. The left seems to have finally woken up to the threat it's under. I've read so many articles and opinion pieces that talk about civil war and not in some sort of metaphorical sense, but an actually going out and shooting each other sense.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jun/26/second-civil-war-us-abortion
But who knows, maybe this was just a weekend of madness and everyone'll log back onto Amazon Prime on Monday morning like nothing ever happened.
This is not driven by party politics. Its driven by religious fundamentalists. They want to make their superstitions apply to all of us. Same groups operste in the UK usually trying to hide behind asecular mask.
Nah Billie Eilish, she’s ace and EXACTLY the person who should shout loudly about this.
this
the right wing of the USA doesn’t really care about abortion, they are simply using it as a way to set people against the Democrats and move them towards Republicans..... Same for gun laws and the healthcare thing.
this
Words fail me really, the US moving toward stronger religious control of the state, a turn back toward the dark ages. And the MPs here calling it a step in the right direction? A pox on all their houses.
Religion has no place whatsoever in the debate
Well, you say that, but both Muslim and Jewish women have a right under Sharia and Talmudic law respectively to abortion. and in fact in Jewish tradition it's been argued that the law of Rodef (which is that act of actively stopping a murderer), even killing them if necessary applies in the case of a foetus that places the mother in danger. Also both religions are very clear about when a person is a human and when they're not: ie when they can be aborted. FWIW the bible does to, but that doesn't seem to be important here for some reason.
I wonder if the SC has realised that they're trampling over religious freedoms
However it does show the success that the US right have managed through their strategy of targeting "single issue" voters. Gay rights next target I'd wager.
FWIW the bible does to, but that doesn’t seem to be important here for some reason.
First breath? Conception? Pick a verse.
I wonder if the SC has realised that they’re trampling over religious freedoms
From their perspective it probably comes as a bonus.
This is not driven by party politics. Its driven by religious fundamentalists.
I disagree, sure there might be some true believers, but it is largely a trigger issue used to manipulate a sector of the electorate so some can obtain and stay in power. I don't even think many of the church leaders in the states are true believers, they are just grifters using and abusing faith for greed and power.
Since when has religion and politics not been almost irredeemably interwoven?
Plenty of believers but yet many really don't understand exactly what they are taught, same goes to other non religious teachings. They end up balancing each others out. The process continues ... never ending.
Since when has religion and politics not been almost irredeemably interwoven?
One thing they have in common if they both go astray is the huger for power. For some reasons human has the natural tendency to be intoxicated with power ... with roots in greed, ignorance and hatred.
I don’t even think many of the church leaders in the states are true believers, they are just grifters using and abusing faith for greed and power.
OT but I’d wager that’s sadly the case in a lot of religions across all faiths and countries. Back to the thread, I fear some other posters are correct and this is just the start. Democracy my arse.
funkmasterp
Full MemberI fear some other posters are correct and this is just the start.
Clarence Thomas has literally told us that this is the case. I mean, it'd be pretty obvious anyway but when they tell you what they're going to do, listen.
I don’t even think many of the church leaders in the states are true believers, they are just grifters using and abusing faith for greed and power.
I think that equally applies to political parties, our expectations of people in faith based positions is just a little higher
Clarence Thomas has literally told us that this is the case. I mean, it’d be pretty obvious anyway but when they tell you what they’re going to do, listen.
Missed that 😕 fortunately it’s not happening over here yet. I’d like to think that it couldn’t but that’s probably me being very naive. I suppose the only slight saving grace for sane US citizens is that he is 74 so hopefully not long left!
fortunately it’s not happening over here yet.
It is though, and has been for a while, just with different trigger issues. Even this week the government are reducing "our" rights under the ECHR by riling up racist support for deportations.
I meant the subject of the OP but take your point
I suppose the only slight saving grace for sane US citizens is that he is 74 so hopefully not long left!
This shouldn’t be a lifetime appointment. Non-elected - fine, means they’re theoretically non-partisan. But there should be a term limit of, say 10 years, and no reappointments.
Roe vs Wade was probably bad law since a) Norma McCorvey lied about being raped so the whole case was based on fiction, and b) the right to abortion was protected through the right to privacy, which was very tenuous as an argument.
Anyway, the SCOTUS has not banned abortion, they have only removed federal protections and let the matter return to the states themselves. Abortion is now a matter for local democracy not of fiat from on high.
@funkmaterp
Democracy my arse.
On the contrary, if Americans now want abortion they get to vote on it.
Not really, it will depend on who controls the state. Can’t see many republican states allowing it. The point is it shouldn’t be an either/or scenario. The only person who should get a say in the matter of abortion is the woman having to make the decision in the first place.
a) Norma McCorvey lied about being raped so the whole case was based on fiction,
This is bollocks. Whether she lied or not is irrelevant; the judgement did not take that into account at all when making its judgment. It was based entirely on the premise of ‘it’s none of your business’ which is exactly the right that’s being attacked at the moment; the right to privacy. It’s not a good time to have a ‘non traditional’ lifestyle in the US right now.
Full fact check
On the contrary, if Americans now want abortion they get to vote on it.
Yeah, unelected partisan officials taking repealing the constitutional rights of an already subjugated group is TOTALLY democratic. <rollseyes>
Dont think it wont be coming here......
https://twitter.com/MirrorPolitics/status/1541778555088011264
See, this is why I could never be an MP.
I'd have punched that smug **** spark out.
Not surprised to see our resident cake scoffer talking about "State's rights".
We've all heard that one before haven't we?
Abortion is now a matter for local democracy not of fiat from on high.
No it isn’t, this decision allows states to override local democracy. It empowers state legislators to overturn decisions made at the local level.