We have informed consent and the freedom not to be vaccinated. With that freedom comes consequences. One of those is that others don’t want to mix with you. Sorry if that impacts your international travel plans, or trip to a nightclub. Freedom has a price.
Exactly. Except I'm not sorry about it.
Looking at the demographic of the anti lockdown, anti vax crowd, I would say vaccine passports will weed out a certain section of society meaning trips to attractions/locations could be more pleasant in the future. Every cloud and all that.
Anyway, isn't all this anti-vax stuff a lot of trouble to go to, just because you're afraid of needles?
We have informed consent and the freedom not to be vaccinated. With that freedom comes consequences. One of those is that others don’t want to mix with you. Sorry if that impacts your international travel plans, or trip to a nightclub. Freedom has a price.
Sorry. Not sorry.
Another case of an anti vaxx in the US has died of the virus. Sad as any death is, and here theres been hundreds of thousands. But maybe his death will make others on the fringes of anti vaxx deciding the risk is greater than some whatsapp loudmouth
I got told off on another thread for stereotyping when I mentioned that most builders I knew where Brexiteers.
Doesn't make it untrue, though, does it?
Self righteous and judgemental
Absolutely. Self righteous about those revelling in their own stupidity and undermining a clearly understood numbers game re vaccination.
Judgemental - again yes. Judgement of wanton, conscious stupidity and its exposure as stupidity is a key feature of a functioning society. These people are free to indulge their stupidity quietly if they like - just by refusing the vaccine and keeping quiet about it. These bellends are actually advertising and revelling in their stupidity.
Sympathy? It is possible. Everyone makes mistakes. Learn from them, change behaviour, move on. Carry on pushing your idiocy? No sympathy.
Smashing machines in mills didn't do the Luddites any good and this anti-vax nonsense won't do the perps any good either.
FWIW. The builders I know are pretty representative of the Brexit referendum result - split pretty evenly. 60:40 one way or the other at the most.
People who like drinking Carling is probably a more positive correlation.
Your idea of freedom may be medical passports, jabs, a 2 tier society and coercion.
Fortunately a lot of others don’t consider this to be freedom.
"Freedom" is an aspirational concept, you're never going to have total unfettered "freedom" so get used to it. But in the UK we have far more freedom than many other places TBH.
Many of the things cited as putting a crimp on your freedoms are in fact optional, Jabs are optional, vaccine passports aren't actually real yet, and probably unworkable if brought into practice (plus September will be a bit late after everyone's been clubbing highfiving and hugging for 2 months) and like masks and social distancing are now they'll be completely optional.
What people are objecting to are 'nudges' and governments of all stripes have done this since forever, if you want to change the population's behaviour you don't just tell them what to do, you offer some inducements, and push a bit of rhetoric/propaganda their way...
"Freedom Day" was (like most things Bojo sells) massively oversold, and it's clearly an attempt at two things. The first is to get consumer spending in shops, pubs, hotels and bars going again, because we need some tax revenue, the second is a nudge towards "herd immunity".
Yes that phrase fell out of favour because it (rightly) implied the government sees the public like dumb cattle. But I'm pretty sure allowing, but not too actively encouraging, the great unwashed to start doing things that we all know help covid to spread is intended to push infections up to either drive immunity through exposures or simply peesude the unvaccinated to take up the jab.
I'm not a fan of our current government and personally I'd have temporarily traded more "freedoms" to get further ahead of covid infections, the current course of action will still cost lives. But they're still giving you most of the "freedoms" you think you lack.
The real objection seems to be (IMO) that people doing clearly stupid things aren't being told how clever they are for it... Nobody's going to arrest you for being a ****wit, attending super-spreader marches and spouting shite, nobody's making you have a Jab, wear a mask or think about the responsibility you might have for infecting others... Precisely what other freedoms would you like?
Precisely what other freedoms would you like?
Freedom from that nagging feeling that they are dickheads?
Unfortunately that can only come from within.
Precisely what other freedoms would you like?
Freedom from the masonic space lizards and their globalist population reduction agenda?
Some foll would get a fair shock if they visited somewhere with no/little freedoms.
Given the constraints of a functioning society we really don't do all that bad compared to some places I've had the misfortune of working/fortune of experiancing.
Looking at the demographic of the anti lockdown, anti vax crowd, I would say vaccine passports will weed out a certain section of society meaning trips to attractions/locations could be more pleasant in the future. Every cloud and all that.
While I generally support your point of view, the way you are expressing it at the moment makes you come across as a nasty and vindictive piece of work, which I hope isn't your intention.
the way you are expressing it at the moment makes you come across as a nasty and vindictive piece of work
I'm being a bit OTT deliberately. Like the prats in Trafalgar Square.
I actually do think that a lot of places/attractions/restaurants would be much better places if bellends were barred. If vaccine passports and antivax combine to weed out some of the yobbish elements of society, I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing.
It already happens. 'Exclusive' locations are priced to exclude (often unfairly) certain strata of society. Vaccine-based discrimination actually does this on a fairer basis. Accentuate the positives and all that.
And stupidity is a human trait I absolutely refuse to pander to.
^^Can’t even begin to agree with that. It also handily plays into their script and fuels the ‘2 tier society/us v s them/Trumpist ‘Leftist Evil Elite VS U Real PEOPLE’/‘class war’ that Plopkins et al are currently propagating, growing and milking for all they can get. Heading US-wards with the kind of binary rhetoric that effectively dismantles a (even slightly functional) democracy and instead pabes way for populism/fascism/idiocracy isn’t the smartest move in my humble opinion.
Fight them with facts by all means, but basically labelling all of those people as some kind of undesirable scum just points back at you and also validates their emerging narrative.
Nonetheless, if I’d witnessed them megaphoning a frightened elderly couple with those sort of vile epithets then I think my fight would have risked going from facts to fists. Either way it just feeds their narrative. Everything does. Attention is oxygen for them and I regret opening the thread tbh
Fight them with facts by all means, but basically labelling all of those people as some kind of undesirable scum just points back at you and also validates their emerging narrative.
Don't care about labels or not but not having to mix with people who are idiots and proud of it is a good thing isn't it?
So you think it is a good idea to pander to stupidity?
@ p7eaven I couldn't agree more with the sentiments you express.
And stupidity is a human trait I absolutely refuse to pander to.
+1.
There are some opinions & views that are bluntly batsh1t crazy. If you find that when questioned you can’t substantiate with sound reasoning, objective analysis & facts - do not be surprised if you find yourself filed thus.
Fox, Hopkins et al are in it for one thing and one thing only.
Attention. They crave it more than anything else.
I’d bet good money most of the speakers on that stage are double jabbed…
I’d bet good money most of the speakers on that stage are double jabbed…
But that would make them hypocritical shit-stirrers - shock, horror - hold the front page.
There are some opinions & views that are bluntly batsh1t crazy. If you find that when questioned you can’t substantiate with sound reasoning, objective analysis & facts – do not be surprised if you find yourself filed thus.
A million times this. 2000 years ago I wouldn't have called a flat earther a moron. In 2021 I would.
The opportunities to be educated, do research etc have never been better.
Fight them with facts by all means, but basically labelling all of those people as some kind of undesirable scum just points back at you and also validates their emerging narrative.
I admire your noble sentiments but when I go somewhere nice and it's full of people dropping litter, fighting, being racist, anti-social etc.... It's not about writing people off from a particular social group, it's about behaviour - there are arseholes from every sector of society.
Fighting people with facts is very pre-2016 of you I'm afraid, now peoples' feelings are more important, regardless of how ill-informed they are.
I admire your noble sentiments but when I go somewhere nice and it’s full of people dropping litter, fighting, being racist, anti-social etc….
Go on then, what do you actually do in those circumstances? What do we as individuals do to try and stem the tide?
Genuine question, I genuinely don't know. I hate the "power" that social media gives these idiots to spread their views, but I'm wary that dannyh's solution starts with running the risk of snobbery and could be twisted until we have an "under race" and all that may result from that
there are arseholes from every sector of society
This.
You have the right to refuse vaccines. We have the right to refuse you service as you represent a danger to others
I would refuse all service to those that refuse vaccines - including drs and hospital clinic for them and a blanket ban on all entry to public spaces. no pubs, no churches, no museums etc etc.
Want to go to your GP without being vaccinated? Wait until the special dickheads clinic on on day a month when the staff are all in full PPE and the building cleaned afterwards. Want get married in a registrars office - off you pop sunshine. Not getting in
I have a feeling that this particular underclass is creating itself, with assistance from the people who will make money out of them, and TJ +1, if they want to behave this way ,then they have to accept the consequences.
Go on then, what do you actually do in those circumstances? What do we as individuals do to try and stem the tide?
Personally I tell them they are being arses and to stop doing what shitty behaviour they are doing. Be prepared to for confrontations and / or running away
And TJ +1 again.
Covid doesn't discriminate in the same way we do socially and politically, it just discriminates between regular people and dickheads. Covid isn't elitist or classist.
If someone isn't vaccinated but still exercises caution and tries not to put others in jeapordy then I can respect that. If they're not vaccinated and not taking any precautions then they are putting others at risk with their behaviour and they are dickheads, pure and simple.
I would gaffer tape a dildo to their heads if I could.
2000 years ago I wouldn’t have called a flat earther a moron. In 2021 I would.
Even then.... 😉
I got told off on another thread for stereotyping when I mentioned that most builders I knew where Brexiteers.
The builders I know are pretty representative of the Brexit referendum result – split pretty evenly. 60:40 one way or the other at the most.
To be fair, builders/trades were the first to be affected by the EU expansion into Eastern Europe (and Tony Blair's open border policy /unlimited numbers) back in 2004.
I used to be a site chippy in the UK.
I remember meeting more and more labourers/site hands coming from Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, etc.
Then came the skilled trades.
A chippy's day rate was around £250 a day (London /Essex). Mate and I were finding it harder as prices were being pushed down. The guys we contracted from were finding it harder to compete with the prices Eastern Europeans were willing to work for.
I can still remember being shocked hearing that they were working for £65 a day and sleeping three or four to a room. 10-15 guys sharing a house.
Great for them, not so much for guys with wife and kids, a mortgage and a life. Mate of mine almost lost his house.
Having said that... Fair play to them.
If you had the opportunity to earn in a week what you would struggle to clear in a month back home, then you'd be a fool not to take it.
Ironically, many of these Eastern European guys have settled, rates have increased again, but it meant that lots of older trades people decided it was time to quit (why keep swimming against the flow?) and others were left jaded and still see forriners as the enemy/job snatchers.
Me? I left the UK in 2008.
Always have been those deemed as outsiders in the construction industry long before the east European workers. Maybe the carrot that was bogus self employment and the unions shrinking were the biggest cause.
And stupidity is a human trait I absolutely refuse to pander to.
+1
Last year there was a big demo in Berlin. Next day phoned I phoned my mate who lives in Berlin and jokingly asked if he was there.... (he's known for being a bit anti state)
"oh ****, man... I don't know what to do!
I only wanted to film (*bearing in mind his phone is ancient and crap I kinda thought this was BS *) and I ended up at the front. I wanted to get away and then the police sprayed me with pepper spray.
I've just been to the shops and I'm on the front page of the Berliner Zeitung! Luckily i turned my face and you don't know it's me."
Obviously, the very next thing I do is a Google image search of the corona demo at Alexanderplatz. The third image that came up was of matey boy, but with his face towards the camera. The image used by the Süddeutsche Zeitung, one of Germany's biggest selling (proper) newspapers! The paper his mother in law gets delivered everyday!
So I download the image. Find a t-shirt printing site and get several t-shirts printed with one of them going directly to his address... 😁
Oh how we all laughed. I say all... He not so much.
I'll save him some dignity....
Always have been those deemed as outsiders in the construction industry long before the east European workers. Maybe the carrot that was bogus self employment and the unions shrinking were the biggest cause.
I can only speak for the eight years I was working in the trade prior to buggering off.
I will not pander to stupidity to spare the feelings of stupid people. It really is that simple.
If an anti vaxer stands on a rusty nail do they get a tetanus booster or are they just super careful with that sort of thing?
the objection to having the covid vaccine isn’t the same as being an anti-vaxer. i know someone who won’t have the covid jab, but isn’t anti vax.
Of course it is - its not a binary thing.
I am vaccination cautious for a variety of reasons but I had my covid one like a shot
the only reason not to have a covid vaccine if you can is you are stupid and believe anti vax nonsense
i’m inclined to agree. but this dude isn’t stupid, but has been turned (radicalized, perhaps) by his social media and internet interests.
i’m not sure how he’ll feel whe people without the vaccine don’t start to die in huge numbers. (well, i do he’ll feel what the stuff he reads on the web tells him to feel.)
what i find more concerning than folk not getting vaccinated is the underlying split and how it will manifest itself next. sad times
Ch4 interviewing Tory MP about the kickback against ‘vaccine passports’. Obviously the civil unrest is playing a part. Lines are being drawn (like a blindfolded fencing match with the onlookers shouting directions) but where…
i’m not sure how he’ll feel whe people without the vaccine don’t start to die in huge numbers.
but he wouldn’t believe that ^ because it wasn’t on russia today!
and i suspect there will be the suspicion that descenters are being “silenced” or that the death certificates of those jabbed are being faked to look like unvaccinated people die.
people actually believe (as you know) that this is a global conspiracy to achieve something that involves killing people.
Crazy ducks!
"This is not simply a difference of opinion."
https://imgur.com/gallery/14cIXoW
Scroll right for the craziness....
Yup… see that vid I posted. Campaigners saying that ambulances are being used to capture well people and take them to their deaths… that staff at hospitals are killing thousands of people to help perpetuate a hoax on the population. It’s bonkers stuff like this that results in hospitals and medical staff being attacked by “protestors”. Mad stuff.
Covid conspiracy types: if anyone dies after getting covid for any reason they put the cause of death down as covid regardless
Also covid conspiracy types: if anyone dies for any reason after having the vaccine then the vaccine was definitely to blame
🤔
Just watched that vid too.
I'm not going to post the words and opinions that I wish to.
These people can't be placated in my opinion.
These people can’t be placated in my opinion.
Agreed.
