Evidence based practice old boy
The evidence, both Scotland and England, seems to show that knife crime falls when stop and search is increased, and rises when stop and search is reduced
(edit, I’d suggest that the same pattern is successfully witnessed in other areas of crime - drink driving and speeding being great examples of how enforcement and the risk of being stopped and breathalysed changes behaviour)
If you’re looking a bit shifty on the street in an area known for drug selling or gang trouble, wearing a flat-brimmed cap and dressed like an extra from The Wire – you were more likely to be targeted whatever colour your skin is.
I don’t feel this is unreasonable
Ergo, if you dress like young people choose to, especially if it's similar to a fictional TV show about black people, then you should be targeted for police harassment. This is awful and bigoted. I'm sorry for being so direct.
Ergo, if you dress like young people choose to, especially if it’s similar to a fictional TV show about black people, then you should be targeted for police harassment. This is awful and bigoted. I’m sorry for being so direct.
No more unfair or an indication of bigotry than police stopping battered Vauxhall novas with body kits on a Friday evening, jaguars on the way back from the golf club at closing time or blacked out beemers driving round Bradford in the early hours of the morning. Applying Red flags to certain behaviours and patterns is entirely sensible.
(edit, and let’s throw in battered transit vans with Irish plates being driven round in the countryside at pretty much any time of day - they’re going to get pulled, simple as, it’s not racism, it’s realism)
Ergo, if you dress like young people choose to, especially if it’s similar to a fictional TV show about black people, then you should be targeted for police harassment. This is awful and bigoted. I’m sorry for being so direct.
Well done for totally ignoring the point about correlating clothing with suspicious behaviour.
Do you really think it's bigoted to focus police attention on people who look and act like drug dealers or gang members? Really?
Trouble is that is not what happens - read the links I provided. What actually happens is black youth are routinely stopped and search for no reason other than being black and young and the amount of arrests for serious crimes is minimal and the downside is increased alienation. Policing needs consent of the community. Young black men can be stopped every day simply for walking down the street and being yong and black. They get fed upo with this leading them to be uncooperative thus leading to increased force for the stops thus leading to increased alienation - and this is law abiding citizens we are talking about.
Its a good job there are no recorded incidence of there ever being a white drug dealer.
Things might get a tad more complicated if that ever happened
Young black men can be stopped every day simply for walking down the street and being yong and black.
No, they are being stopped because they are the key demographic that is affected by a particular type of crime (both as victim and perpetrator). In that area that happens to be young black males, but that’s not the key issue, it’s a consequence of the nature of the crime. Young white lads being stopped and searched for knives in Glasgow aren’t being stopped “because they are white”, they are being stopped because they represent the key demographic for knife and drug crime in that area.
I’ve been stopped loads of times by the police driving to/from work in the early hours of the morning, I wasn’t being stopped because I was being victimised, I was being stopped because I was driving round in the early hours in a reasonably sporty type of car. It was the pattern of behaviour and context that was the reason I was stopped, multiple red flags.
I was driving round in the early hours in a reasonably sporty type of car
Was work nicking cars vin?
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"I wasn’t being stopped because I was being victimised, I was being stopped because I was driving round in the early hours in a reasonably sporty type of car."
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So what you're saying is your experience is irrelevant, because you weren't being victimised, and because you were being stopped for something other than your skin colour? Glad we cleared that one up.
The sheer use of blinkers and twisting on this site for a bit of a rant is tiresome. Young black males were being stopped simply because they are the majority of the perpetrators. It's not racism. I doubt little lizzy is packing a 5 inch blade in her asda bag incase a deal goes wrong.
Trouble is that is not what happens
Just because something was implemented unfairly in the past (which I was aware of thanks) doesn't mean it's not a suitable solution in the present.
For all its faults, the Met has changed and so has our wider society.
i’m going To go out on a limb here and hazard a guess that you don’t live, and never have lived, in a racially mixed inner city area populated by people on the lower end of the income scale?
You and your guesses..you couldnt be more wrong, I was living in shit areas before it became trendy
The problem wont be fixed until we admit the problem, whether its broken families, lack of opportunity or culture.
So closing off discussion because it upsets your prejudices isnt helpful.
So what you’re saying is your experience is irrelevant, because you weren’t being victimised, and because you were being stopped for something other than your skin colour? Glad we cleared that one up.
No, I’m saying that if I had been black, it would have been very easy for me to believe that the reason I was being stopped was because I was a black, rather than just because I was driving a sporty car around in the early hours of the morning.
If you’re an adolescent male wandering around the streets of one of London’s knife crime areas wearing ‘hooded sports attire’ in the hours of darkness then you are pretty damn likely to get stopped and searched.
the fact that this disproportionately (as a %ge of the community) affects young black men isn’t proof of victimisation, it’s merely a consequence of the significant chance of people wandering around the streets of a London knife crime hotspot in hooded sports attire during the hours of darkness coincidentally happening to be young, black and male
Worth a read:
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/the-stop-and-search-race-myth/
The sheer naivety of some posters on here, who see things in such simple terms, is tiresome.
Being young and black is not a reason to be stopped and searched. As most of them are neither drug dealers or gang member they will have done nothing to provide reasonable grounds
Less than 1% of S60 searches leads to an arrest for possession of an offensive weapon. Is that effective targeting?
(if anyone has the stats for other arrests, I'd be interested, I couldn't find them with a quick google)
Here's a fun stat for you. Section 1 of PACE allows stops when there is a reasonable ground to expect to find prohibited items. This leads to a 12% success rate. Section 60 of the CJA 94 removes the reasonable grounds requirement and has the abovementioned >1% success rate. It's almost as though "reasonable grounds" is what makes stop and search effective eh?
Here's another- 62% of those arrested under S60 are white, only 26% are black. Hopefully the implications of that are obvious enough that I don't need to spell them out
13% of London's population identify as black. What proportion are involved in knife crime? This is where stats are most often misunderstood. Yes, people in London involved in knife crime are more likely to be young and black. But that doesn't mean that young and black people are at all likely to be involved in knife crime. And that's what actually matters. Most financial crime is committed by middle aged white guys, but investigating all middle aged white guys to see if they're involved in libor fraud isn't very effective.
"Less than 1% of S60 searches leads to an arrest for possession of an offensive weapon. Is that effective targeting?"
What percentage of airport security searches are positive? If the fact searches are being done means less knives are being carried then a low level of weapons found isn't a bad thing. The searches reduce weapon carrying whether weapons are found or not.
Or we can let young black men carry on stabbing each other.
airport security is for everyone - its not discriminatory.
Young black men are disproportionately targeted. Many more stops per arrest, many more stops per young black man that others = if you are young black and innocent you are many times more likely to be stopped for no reason than any other group.
Also those stops will also be more heavy handed
this leads to alienation and makes it less likely that police will get co operation from these groups
Or we can let young black men carry on stabbing each other.
No we should do something about it that is a good idea, doesn't cause more problems and is based in facts.
If you’re an adolescent male wandering around the streets of one of London’s knife crime areas wearing ‘hooded sports attire’ in the hours of darkness then you are pretty damn likely to get stopped and searched.
It's simple really. If you're an innocent member of the community who happens to fit the visual profile, get a new wardrobe and stay indoors, or accept the inconvenience of being stopped.
Kids that aren't involved in criminal activity don't wear hooded sports attire.. I mean, it's not like you'd want to try to blend anonymously into the background in an environment where violent injury or death is a daily hazard. And it's not like Sports Direct is the cheapest shop on the high street in an area of extreme poverty.
I could do with a new wardrobe myself actually.. this particular hoody is getting threadbare. Mouths to feed first though.
My personal experience of stop and search dates back to my youth. I was (quite rightly) targeted for the procedure and had to accept that if I needed to be out and about I would get harassed. Each and every time that I left the house. OK fair cop as I was up to mischief.
Where it became more than an inconvenience was when a gobby mate would give the officer some lip. Or a friend would be nicked for a tiny bit of dope. Or nicked because he fitted the description given by someone earlier in the day. Or maybe someone's shoes had the same tread as that found at the scene of a crime. Maybe a crowd would gather..
Nervous young officers and scared young kids...
Because of the tense situation maybe some suppressed emotion will spill over, insults will be traded, a bit of heated debate will start up, voices will be raised, tempers will flair, threats will be made, shoving will start..
I hope the police tactics save lives
It’s ok folks! Amber Rudd has got it sussed! Apparently it’s nothing to do with the reduction in police numbers, social exclusion, archaic drug laws or owt messy and complicated like that. It’s....
social meedya!
It’s all down to that bastard Zuckerberg. Again! So if everyone stops using Friend-face then everything will calm right down
"Or we can let young black men carry on stabbing each other."
Aye, that's literally the 2 choices.
I assume Amber Rudd is off to check the settings on her friends reunited and myspace accounts in case she suddenly turns into a knife wielding murderer
Less than 1% of S60 searches leads to an arrest for possession of an offensive weapon. Is that effective targeting?
Well duh, of course it isnt
section 60 is quite specifically the antiethesis of a targeted search, as it introduces a power to search anyone and everyone without any form of suspicion.
Apparently it’s nothing to do with the reduction in police numbers, social exclusion, archaic drug laws or owt messy and complicated like that
Doesn’t appear to be much of a shortage of resources for investigating transphobic twitter comments, racist garden gnomes and paedo-conspiracy theories about dead prime-ministers though, does there?
Young black men are disproportionately targeted.
They’re also disproportionately involved (either as victim or perpetrator) in gun and knife crime. I can’t see how stopping and searching more innocent white people just for the sake of making up the numbers would help that.
section 60 is quite specifically the antiethesis of a targeted search, as it introduces a power to search anyone and everyone without any form of suspicion.
What like being black?
If they searched absolutely everyone in London, not just the darkies, then by my reckoning, every 6 months they’d catch someone red-handed who’d just murderised someone but hadn’t yet had chance to throw the murder weapon in the Thames like they do on Eastenders.
Its the future of policing!
Combine it with just searching Facebook for posts stating ‘I just shanked someone, innit blud’ and you’d have the crime rate cleared up in no time
What percentage of airport security searches are positive?
Everyone being searched and put through the same procedure is fair*. you are not comparing like with like
* well it might be but lets not discuss sus laws as well.
I can’t see how stopping and searching more innocent white people just for the sake of making up the numbers would help that.
the problem is ,for some reason, you cannot see how it does not help when the people are innocent and not white.
Just because the majority of offences you mention are attacks by young black men on other young black men, doesn’t mean the majority of young black men are criminal. That’s why stop and search based on profiling, doesn’t really work long-term. It’s not efficient, it alienates communities and doesn’t deal with the root cause.
binners & tj +1
ninfan & wilburt -1000
Also lived in an area people describe as “shit” for 30+ years...
This is boring and oh so predictable...
..stop and search was reduced and violent crime increased..
..now the communities affected want more stop and search..
..this will happen, knife crime will be reduced and then the communities that asked for an increase in stop and search will claim victimisation and want it reduced again..
..and so it goes on, ready for the next cycle.
Personally let the thick idiots kill each other.
However I realise that's not practical as a policy..there has to be intel gathered and evidence studied so the powers that be can pin point why young black men are disproportionately highly represented as both perpetrators and victims in knife crime..if they can identify that then they can target the reasons and put them right before the crimes take place.
But until that happens the stats point to a disproportionately high number of young black men being involved..as inconvenient as that may be for some people it can't simply be ignored...that would be akin to my personal solution of just letting them get on with it...
..yes it's a sh#t sandwich for young black men who aren't involved but sometimes hurty feelings have to take second place to countering violent crime.
Knife attacks are a nightly occurrence at the moment, it can't go on..that nobhead Khan needs to resign too..spending police funds (900 officers) on internet 'hate crime' is not responsible use of resources while there's a knife crime epidemic.
I’m sure that the black yoot of inner London sink estates will be pleased to hear that comfortabley off middle aged, middle class people who live in nice leafy suburbs and work in IT have got such a handle on their needs.
And have briefly stopped worrying about important stuff like share portfolios, buy-to-let mortgages, expensive watches and which Audi to get next, to concentrate their formidable intellectual talents to see how their problems can be solved in a sensitive yet effective manner that definitely won’t involve them paying any more tax
Innit?
Just because the majority of offences you mention are attacks by young black men on other young black men, doesn’t mean the majority of young black men are criminal.
I haven’t seen anyone here suggest for one second that it does, nor have I seen anyone suggest stopping people just because they are black.
the only ‘profiling’ I’ve seen suggested is targeting stop and search on young males in high knife crime areas (as they are most often both victim and perpetrator) It just so happens that in London, currently the centre of the problem, that has a disproportionate correlation towards them happening to be black (in Glasgow it doesn’t)
If you think about it..... if you carry on reducing police numbers at the present rate then it can only be a matter of a few years until they’ve all killed each other anyway, so problem solved.
To make absolutely sure this’ll work, we just need to stop them breeding
Ninfan wrote,
"section 60 is quite specifically the antiethesis of a targeted search, as it introduces a power to search anyone and everyone without any form of suspicion."
And yet, everyone who is searched has been targeted for a search.
S60 is not the antithesis of a targeted search- that'd be a fully random search. S60 is a targeted search, it's just that it can be targeted without reasonable grounds.
Actually binners you're right, this isn't my problem so why should I pay any more tax in order to sort out somebody else's sh#t?..
..idiots will carry knives and stab each other, Darwinism at work.
As you were.
Indeed! Now if we can only get the ****’s as well as the ****s killing each other to death with knives , we could probably cut sexual offences against white girls too
Result, eh?!
Actually binners you’re right, this isn’t my problem so why should I pay any more tax in order to sort out somebody else’s sh#t?..
so nice as usual, let us know when you have paid off being born, educated etc,
This is boring and oh so predictable…
Can’t deny that what followed in the rest of your post was entirely in keeping with your opening point. Well done for once.
...why bring race into it?..i didn't...i said idiots with knives will kill each other, I couldn't care less what colour their skin is..as someone else said; in Glasgow the racial profile of those involved in knife crime will be different to that in London..makes no difference, still idiots, still Darwinism at work.
A certain section of society (and this forum) seem to want race brought into everything..as a touchy subject it invariably leads to arguments, derailing the debate and ultimately shutting it down..try not to do that and don't accuse others of racism when they haven't mentioned it..it says far more about you, your prejudices and insecurities that you have to paint others in that light.
Deviant - its because in this case when stop and search was used in Lndon previously it was racist in useage and led to serious advese effects. Look at the stats. Black youth far more likely to get stopped but LESS likely to result in arrest than white kids stopped. Black kids being stopped so often without any arrest that they become alienated which makes effective policing harder to acheive
thats why this is about race.
In that case we (as a society) should never give anything or anyone a second go, because it failed once before...it's a ridiculous premise and doesn't take into account more progressive attitudes in the police (and society in general) and implies that we are incapable of learning from mistakes...and we know that's nonsense too.
Cutting youth centres and Sure Start Centres can't have helped, neither can an education system that just doesn't work for many of these youngsters.
Now if we can only get the ****’s as well as the ****s killing each other to death with knives , we could probably cut sexual offences against white girls too
Youre blinded by your own prejudice. There are problems to solve, race is a factor, ignoring it doesnt help anyone.
race is a factor, ignoring it doesnt help anyone.
Go on then what is the factor, what does being a certain skin colour mean in this case? Or is it to do with the places you live, situations you are born into etc.
The question is - do you want something that works or do you want to appease the daily wail? Stop and search not only does not work but it activly damages community relations which reduces your chances of getting co operation and intelligence that does work
Stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result
Stop and search not only does not work but it activly damages community relations
Your own argument was that it did work in Glasgow, its just that the people being stopped and searched were white
Why weren't young neds and weegies so upset at being singled out for special treatment that they didn't kick off about it?
Because it was not racist in its implementation and that it was a small part of a co ordinated operation and the situations are very differnt. Nor did I say it worked in Glasgow
What I do know is previous experience of this in London was counterproductive. the two situations are not comparable
