Yes, but there should be checks in place but somehow that is missing. In order to manage such manipulation requires a lot of work so the chain of command should be penalised as well coz they "kept" a blind eye.
I agree. In the past traders have managed to hide huge losses in secret accounts without anyone else colluding in it, however manipulating something like the Libor rate is impossible to do without a load of people knowing and colluding in it.
So we will find out just how corrupt the system is, if this poor bastard is the only guy who gets jail time.
The city is like the mafia, the only difference is the people who are supposed to be keeping an eye on them and making sure the don't break the rules, are all mafia members themselves.
kudos100 - Member
The city is like the mafia, the only difference is the people who are supposed to be keeping an eye on them and making sure the don't break the rules are all mafia members themselves.
Yes, speaking like a true person but I call them ZMs. 😛
Google sentening counsel definitive guidelines sexual offences . published December 2013 effective 1st April 2014
Cps website is a good but not definitive tool.
In the past traders have managed to hide huge losses in secret accounts without anyone else colluding in it
I never saw a thing guv, honest.... omerta! what omerta? I don't know what you are talking about, look a squirrel.
crankboy - MemberGoogle sentening counsel definitive guidelines sexual offences . published December 2013 effective 1st April 2014
Cps website is a good but not definitive tool.
Post the link for punishment sake!
I want the information now I want it at a click. 😆
edit: this one? [url= http://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/Final_Sexual_Offences_Definitive_Guideline_content_web1.pdf ]In PDF.[/url]
Its a big document you need to download actually just google sentencing counsel guidelines there is a website full of them for you to knock yourself out with including the on topic fraud one .
Yep chew that's the one .
Does anyone know if there's a copy of the full judgement available to read anywhere?
Surely the only really effective punishment here is to take every last penny and resource he owns off him?
Jail will achieve nothing, bar a cost to tax payer.
Taking everything off him, bar his job, would put him 'back at zero', but with means to support himself?
he was caught by a manager who blew the whistle on him at Citibank a year before he was charged, they informed the cops immeadiatly butr took a good long time to investigate. So the bank referred themselves before anyone outside knew what was going on.
Surely the only really effective punishment here is to take every last penny and resource he owns off him?
I think there will be a 'proceeds of crime' thing next, where they look at all his assets and get back as much as possible that he obtained dishonestly
"Does anyone know if there's a copy of the full judgement available to read anywhere? "
Crown Court so not normal to do a transcript. The Guardian report was detailed enough to satisfy my one query.
14 years (out in 7) is far to long. A guy I know from school only did 8 inside for murder...
Definitely a scapegoat...although the fact he made millions will probably soften the blow (and reduces my sympathy somewhat)
Murders generally only kill 1 or 2 people; the british journal of psychiatry reported that the economic crisis caused 10000 suicides across europe... That's leaving aside losses of health and wellbeing. Of course, one person didn't do that but his behaviour is a part of the financial psychopathy that led to it.
I spotted this on a headline last night whilst I was watching TV...
It seems unduly harsh to me - 14 years for insider trading, it seems like state sponsored banker bashing to me.
I was watching 24 hours in Police Custody at the time, a brilliant, if sometimes tough watch for me - they had a guy in custody - he worked in a school and was caught downloading Child Pornography, 45000 images, 11 specific offenses, but he openly admitted he'd been doing it since the dawn of the internet (well home users anyway I guess) admittedly he confessed almost straight away, seemed relived to be caught - but he got a 2 year suspended sentence, 3 years counselling and had to sign the register for 10 years - he spent a total of about 4 hours in custody - that was it, yes his career was over, his Wife probably left him and he'll probably never get another job - but they covered his face, he'd only have to move towns and it would be like it never happened - it's worth saying of course they, as far as the police know, he'd never physically abused anyone.
On the other hand you have Rolf Harris, he spent decades sporadically abusing under-age girls - 5 years.
Okay, everyone always compared things to Nonses these days, they've become the new yard-stick, the evil benchmark that all criminals are compared to.
But look at these nasty pieces of work:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/armed-robbery-gang-who-laughed-2808169
A trail of destruction, robbery with violence and a history of criminal activity - not one of them got the same sentence as Tom Hayes got for his first offence.
The only remarkable thing about his crime was the size of the money involved - and it seems we think money is more important than victims these days.
The only remarkable thing about his crime was the size of the money involved - and it seems we think money is more important than victims these days.
In the case of financial malpractice there are still victims, in cases like this there are potentially huge numbers of victims, and those victims still face very real consequences.
It's pretty much impossible to calculate the equivalence of victim-hood when it's been abstracted away like this - but if just one business folded or a handful of homes were repossessed that wouldn't have been* somewhere down the lines as a result of his actions then the suffering inflicted could easily rival the crimes you mention.
*I have no idea if this has happened in this case but the point is that paper crimes can have victims too.
Murders generally only kill 1 or 2 people; the british journal of psychiatry reported that the economic crisis caused 10000 suicides across europe... That's leaving aside losses of health and wellbeing. Of course, one person didn't do that but his behaviour is a part of the financial psychopathy that led to it.
I'm glad someone gets it.
Comparing murder to fraud, without in some way trying to quantify the effect on society is missing the point.
The article of the first page on this thread states:
"To review the bidding, the LIBOR bid rigging cartel was the largest cartel in history, manipulating the prices of an estimated $300+ trillion in assets."
If you think 14 years is too much for fraud, perhaps do some more reading about what he/they were up to.
EDIT: I also think sentences for sex offences are a joke. The often ruin someone's whole life so should be treated much more harshly.
Your armed robbers in the link all got longer sentences than the banker his longest was 9.5 years he got 4.5 consecutive for additional offences . Also at a guess the staring point for the robbers was higher still between 10 and 33% would be discounted for a guilty plea the banker got full whack for running and losing a trial.
On a utilitarian note what actually causes more harm to society a banker manipulating interest rates over years causing redundancies mortgagee repossessions business to fail with the associated human misery or a few one off hits on cash vans for relative pennies that are insured .
Different crimes have different sorts of impacts the courts only have one measure of serious punishment to apply.
The problem with financial crime is that financial punishments and indeed short sentences are no deterrent to professional risk takers .
On a utilitarian note what actually causes more harm to society a banker manipulating interest rates over years causing redundancies mortgagee repossessions business to fail with the associated human misery or a few one off hits on cash vans for relative pennies that are insured .
He was a derivatives trader so he would have been just as interested in the rate being understated as well as overstated depending upon whether he was long or short at the time. The effect is therefore likely to have been shared between both borrowers and lenders - sometimes they will have benefited and sometimes they will have lost out.
I think he can probably blame at least 4 or 5 years of his sentence on trying to be a smartarse and play the legal system. Pleading guilty and saying you'll co-operate, then changing your plea to not guilty and being as un-coperative and obstructive as possible? Judges tend to take a very dim view of that kind of thing when sentencing. If he was half as clever as he thinks he is, he'd have known that.
Banker in not showing any contrition, and thinking he's cleverer than everyone else Shocka!!!
He deserved a tough sentence and there were crimes committed, but 14 years does seem harsh, given the piffling sentences for burglaries (which the police now can't be arsed to attend) and violent crimes.
All seems a massive smokescreen to divert from the lack of real police protection ordinary people, homes and properties now enjoy.
Bread and circuses...
matt_outandabout - MemberSurely the only really effective punishment here is to take every last penny and resource he owns off him?
They should take back as much as possible including certain percentage off his family members including his children. No way to hid his criminal gains.
Yes, he is the only person committed the crime but it would be better to let the family members to deal another family member upbringing etc. That way you pass the responsibility to the family members.
Jail will achieve nothing, bar a cost to tax payer.
Agree. Alternatively is to bill them for the cost during or after the sentence. Why should we feed them (generally speaking for all) for their criminal acts?
Taking everything off him, bar his job, would put him 'back at zero', but with means to support himself?
Yes, even with his job there should be constant pay back of certain percentage. He can still live but he needs to pay back.
🙂
