I'm an IT consultant and always work at client sites. Every job I've had has paid for my travel expenses to client sites and also accommodation when more than about 90 mins from home. I have a job offer where they are saying I need to cover my own expenses, I won't be taking this unless they change there minds on that but I'm wondering if this happens much in other companies. Sounds crazy to me!
Does the salary compensate for the lack of expenses? If not, jog on.
Sounds like they're taking the piss. I get everything paid for (well, I can claim it all back) and £40 for food and beer each night I'm away.
also accommodation when more than about 90 mins from home
That'll never work in Aberdeen with the traffic chaos here
Surely the client pay for the expenses? That's the way it always worked when I was doing travelling as part of the job. I'd be wary of working for a company who's not passing that through, they sound like they are undervaluing you.
Depends on the market i your industry ......
I know consultants who would kill for that now in the current market in my industry.... Something to do with 66 dollars a barrel 😉
As above, these should normally be covered but perhaps the market has/is changing.
As you say ratty, a lot of sqeaky bums around at the moment. I work for the 'green' one by you and the axe man cometh...
[quote=trail_rat ]Depends on the market i your industry ......
I know consultants who would kill for that now in the current market in my industry.... Something to do with 66 dollars a barrel
Oh am I gonna see a spate of oil service company premises spontaneously combusting very soon, as I did with fish houses in the late 90's
When you say consultant, do you mean contractor or permanently employed consultant? If the latter then run, that is outrageous. Consultancies always bill the client for their consultants expenses, so if this company isn't then they would appear to be going in on the cheap, and you don't want to work.for a company that tries to undercut everyone else...
I'm not sure how they've come up with this but it's a company who are mostly based in India and all this is coming from there. I seem to get told different things over the phone to what I get in emails when I push for confirmation, all a bit odd. They think they are paying me a high enough salary to cover my own expenses but seeing as the 1st project they'd put me on is 100 miles from home (inc the M25) then I'd have to stay over and I guess my costs could be around £1,500 / month. As travel could be anywhere in the UK I'd be leaving myself open to some high costs.
It could be a good role but I might be getting another job offer tomorrow which would cover expenses no question so maybe I'll be taking that. I think it will also have more than the 20 days holiday given by the 1st company which seems rather mean! Just have to see what salary they come up with.
These are permie roles, seems they fix price their projects - or at least don't charge expenses to the client.
From that last post I have no idea why you're even considering working for them
I seem to get told different things over the phone to what I get in emails when I push for confirmation, all a bit odd. They think they are paying me a high enough salary to cover my own expenses
You have won the nigerian lottery please pay me 1500 cash in escrow to release your funds....
TechM? TCS?
Depends on your clients contract whether they bill for expenses or it is an all in rate. However even if it is an all in rate I would still expect you to be able to claim back any expenses incurred, especially if you have a mobility clause in your contract.
If they want to play that game I'd ask to be employed as a contractor so you can claim the tax back off your expenses. Oh, and charge a much higher rate. If they are quibbling about expense rates they will have no problem dumping you for statutory redundancy so you may as well not bother with being perm.
It's a billion dollar company, project they've got for me is with a large company. I'm charitably thinking they have a bit of a communication problem 🙂 I've met a v senior guy in the practice I'd be joining who seems to think I'd be useful to help grow the practice in the UK. It could be a path into a management role whereas my other options are staying technical which I'm getting a bit bored with. If they don't offer to pay all my expenses I won't be joining them.
Never in 17 years have I ever worked for a company that didn't pay travel expenses (+ accommodation if overnighting). £50/month in your pocket equates to about £1k extra pay so at £1,500 that's effectively £30k more they should be paying you so I hope it's a very, very well paid job!
Is it even legal to refuse to pay expenses?
Screw that.
Part of travelling for work is staying in a nice hotel...takes the edge off working away from home.
Paying for it yourself would suck.
If work didn't pay my travel expenses I'd never get to eat fillet steak 🙁
My mate's wife in HR did suggest I could challenge them legally - perhaps I would have done if I'd joined and then discovered this! I don't really see how they can grow in the UK without paying expenses as all the experienced people who they'd want are used to getting them. It seems they have some permies who just rent a place close to the client. Maybe this model works for the sort of people (young/single?) who can live where the project is.
No consultants in my industry I know works without travel expenses, just wondering if it happens anywhere else. They seem to think I'm greedy - they even had to get special authorisation to pay the salary I asked for but the deal they're offering me (even ignoring the expenses thing) is worse than my old role but I was made redundant from that. Been contracting since then - amusingly my client paid my expenses! Just finished that role so looking for my next one.
You don't have a normal place of work, so your are not necessarily entitled to travel expenses as you are never away. Also on this particular job the client may not be willing to pay travel expenses. Now all that being said travelling more than 90 mins each day is a lot but I did similar to my normal place of work and paid £650 a month of my own money for the privilege. I'd say this isn't a clear cut case but if yiu dint want the job leave it to someone else
this but it's a company who are mostly based in India
AFAIK there is some loophole in Indian law that says if you work for an Indian company outside of India you are not covered by Indian employment law, or anyone else's. This allows the company to bend you over, and they do.
AVOID
You don't have a normal place of work
No, but you do have to live somewhere. All the time I've worked in these sorts of roles I've been technically based at home, and work out all my expenses from there. Including when I do go to the office. Not sure I could go back to paying for a regular commute, even when I cycle in I get 20p/mile to cover it.
I can understand some form of fixed payment to cover your expenses when away, but to not pay it at all is staggering. It's bad enough to be away from home on business without it coming from your own pocket too.
call me thick but I still can't tell if OP is a contractor or an employee.
separately, I am surprised so many consultancies would charge their clients travel expenses for work within the UK.
AFAIK there is some loophole in Indian law that says if you work for an Indian company outside of India you are not covered by Indian employment law, or anyone else's. This allows the company to bend you over, and they do.
AVOID
WTF? why would you expect to be covered by Indian employment law when you live and work in the UK? how would Indian law stop British employment law from having effect?
why would you want to be covered by Indian employment law? how much protection do you think it gives? how realistic would it be for OP to sue under Indian employment law if he had a dispute?
No expenses seems pretty rubbish but if the projects are in areas like London where clients will expect companies to have local consultants then I guess the clients may be reluctant to pay hotel costs etc.
I live in Cheltenham and work all over the country (and sometimes the world - writing this from Houston, Texas) and get my expenses paid but sometimes it can be a battle to get decent hotels. The hotel allowance is £100/night which is stupid for London (cannot even get a Travelodge) and becoming that way for the rest of the UK. I can normally get more expensive hotels signed off but it is a pain to get the approval before booking.
If I was the OP I would not even consider this role. Hotel prices are spiraling upwards and the £1,500/month figure could easily rise to £2,000+ if working in an area with high demand for hotels.
I guess you could stay in a hostel with shared facilities for £20/night but I would not do that when working
Don't leave the house unless expenses are covered here. If they are making grand promises but nothing else just remember you can't eat, burn or spend promises.
As for management will they be able to recruit anyone for you to manage?
Just add it indirectly into your charge.
how far are all the job locations for the OP?
My mate's wife in HR did suggest I could challenge them legally
Or you could just work somewhere that pays expenses, and save yourself the bother.
My experience is that if you're having to do this sort of negotiation before even accepting a job offer when they're trying to tempt you to work for them it's going to be a nightmare once you're actually employed and they don't have to be nice any more.
[quote=konabunny said]call me thick but I still can't tell if OP is a contractor or an employee.
separately
You're thick 🙂
These are permie roles
Thiscall me thick but I still can't tell if OP is a contractor or an employee.separately, I am surprised so many consultancies would charge their clients travel expenses for work within the UK.
As a freelancer I charge the client a day rate and that's it. I have different rates for local work so would factor in my costs when quoting but this is all arranged up front. There is no additional bill for expenses. The idea of staying in fancy hotels and eating steak is only for the travelling employees. All my costs come out of my pocket.
If it is actually a permanent role then surely you'd be looking to relocate? Travelling would actually be commuting and that isn't normally paid for.You're thickThese are permie roles
[quote=nickj]
These are permie rolesIf it is actually a permanent role then surely you'd be looking to relocate? Travelling would actually be commuting and that isn't normally paid for.
But it's project based consultancy. One project in Yorkshire, the next in Surrey etc. Not paying travel is crazy, I guessed this was an Indian outfit before the OP mentioned it.
Oh. So it is a permanent job of which part of the job would be travelling. In that case I would expect expenses. That said I can see what they are suggesting as a reasonable business model. When on expenses often people take the pee a bit. Pay a bit more and let people sort themselves out and the employee gets more cash in their pocket if they are willing to stay in a cheap hotel and not eat steak, employer saves a few quid.
[u][b]My experience is that if you're having to do this sort of negotiation before even accepting a job offer when they're trying to tempt you to work for them it's going to be a nightmare once you're actually employed and they don't have to be nice any more.[/b][/u]
just incase it wasnt clear.
If you havent already see if there are any employee reviews on glassdoor. I also agree with comments up there. If they think this is ok practise or they are messing you about its not a good sign for the future.
Black Friday consulting?reasonable business model
I am surprised so many consultancies would charge their clients travel expenses for work within the UK.
They can save themselves that cost if they don't require me to work from their office. I'm happy to VPN in and dial in to meetings, etc but usually they want me around. And if they want me around, they cover the cost of me being there.
Interestingly, my colleagues in the US do a lot more customer work remotely. I guess as it's a big place travel is often too time-consuming as well as too expensive in a lot of cases.
We did have a customer who refused to pay expenses. They just got charged £150/day on top of the usual rate.
It's actually an American company but mostly people based in India - certainly in my area of work - it is the result of a takeover where the company bought was larger than the one that bought it.
Update this morning is that travel expenses will now be paid - but there seems to be disagreement about whether hotels/food are part of that! If I was to drive to my first project daily the mileage would be as much as the hotel costs with food - not that I would commute for 100+ miles. It is a struggle dealing with them and I put this down to ignorance of how things are in the UK. If I did join I would be having a discussion about what I think would need to change for them to grow here - they do have some more junior people who just rent where they work but it's the more experienced people they'd struggle to get.
As I haven't now got a job I am not losing anything by taking it - I could resign quickly enough. I have another offer of a job that I don't want but I may get another offer today from a good company who I like - feels like that one could involve tougher travel commitments but at least I'll get my costs covered without an argument! Just have to see what their offer is.
It is a struggle dealing with them and I put this down to ignorance of how things are in the UK.
I would walk away. Sounds like a complete pain.
The Company I work for is a UK section, of a US Company, which has a much larger US parent company. They have been in the UK for over 20 years and still don't understand the UK/EU. What it must of been like at the beginning doesn't bear thinking about.
Hang on you're a consultant, not an employee?
Dunno about ICT but in engineering they just get an hourly/daily rate. If a contractor's asked to work in another office/country they then get offered a new contract which may be worth more or include accomodation. I'd heard a few of them ask for the money rather than travel and accomodation as they want to keep things at arms length to avoid falling foul of IR35.
You can be a consultant and an employee. As in, he is looking to be employed by a firm of consultants to be hired out to other people.
[i]Hang on you're a consultant, not an employee? [/i]
He's an employee who does consulting...
Or a consultant who does employing....
Your confused of Cambridge.
Anyway, as soon as I'd heard the word India, I'd run a mile. I've never hated working with people as much as I have with Indian MNOs.
I'm not surprised if this is their first time recruiting experienced staff in UK/Europe, probably up to now it is just putting Indians in and IME (I've worked with all the big outsources) they'll put up with 5h1t as it's still better than been at home.
But, you must agree everything up front - also check holiday as I hadn't realised that the minimum is now 28 days (including BH's), until discussing it with a colleague last week.
https://www.gov.uk/holiday-entitlement-rights/entitlement
Yes I've been told 20 days hols, agent says that's becoming normal for IT - really?! Always had 25 but know some who get 23.
