[Closed] The Panama Papers.

the real story is the embezzlement of BILLIONS by kleptocrats across the globe.

For me its this and UK is the big cheese in making it happen.

@thm - be careful in your quick excuses...you're straying dangerously close to social theoires that believe people are the result of their surroundings and therefore cannot be held truly accountable for their actions....that is the opposite of the Tory ideology of individualisation...unless of course I got you wrong and actually you are a Corbyn supporter? 😀

The Problem Dave also has is what the Panama fund says about the company you keep. It says daddy was happy using the same lawyers and bankers who were at the same time happily laundering money for drug cartels and blood-stained dictators

@Grum - I'm going to put my head above the parapet here because I'm not a tax expert, but you are entirely wrong in your statement. As said above, Cameron has paid the same tax as he would have if the fund didn't exist and he had directly invested in shares.

I will go further and say that there is a chance that even you have an indirect investment in an Irish UCITS via a pension scheme.

You are what you are, and you do the best with the hand that you are dealt with.

Dave is not ashamed of it he just knows it wont help his "all in it together " message he spins to the masses. In this case it wont help him look like a the ferocious tiger taking on the tax avoidrrs - not that he was that was, as the EU letter shows, nothing but PR spin and BS.
Essentially no politician whatever hue, is going to make a massive thing about the part of them that makes them least appealing to the electorate
Its not like Gideon wears his inheritance on his sleeve either but we all know his background to. Same reason we dont really want to be ruled by our social netters anymore so they do the man of the people shtick. In both their cases it is clearly BS but fools some of the electorate.

Its way OTT to try and suggest that him playing to the masses is him "ashamed"

Here is an [url= https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/economy/financial-sector/opinion/73541/top-lawyer-ian-camerons-investment-fund-was-not-tax ]article [/url]by Graham Aaronson QC, who is a very eminent QC, who chaired the Tax Law Rewrite Committee (appointed by Labour) and was involved in putting forward the GAAR. He is a serious expert and has been at the top of the tree for a very long time.

His conclusion in the article was that there was no tax avoidance.

Why on earth is everyone bleating on about a perfectly legal bog standard fund

Because the Prime Minister concealed it.

Why on earth is everyone bleating on about a perfectly legal bog standard fund

How does everyone know it's all perfectly legal?

Who told you that?

How does everyone know it's all perfectly legal?

It's highly unlikely to be illegal. There's a question around whether it's avoidance, which I would leave to the experts. The more interesting point is why the Prime Minister felt the need to conceal it.

It's highly unlikely to be illegal.

How do you know that?

What has the money been invested in?

Handy thing this offshore secrecy...

JHJ there's probably a key facts doc showing the major investments given its a UCITs. Just search on google with the fund name.

JY - so we agree it's nothing more than a PR issue and our time/opprobrium is better spent elsewhere

Half right, it was a PR cock up, but London and our tax havens dependencies are the trusted global brand in money laundering, millions around the globe are robbed through evasion and the problem is that our own PM is perceived to be in it up to his nuts himself.

This proposal was put to the EU parliament exactly a year ago

Tory and UKIP MEPs voted (in line with their parties) [u]against[/u] it

the European Parliament proposed concrete measures to tackle immoral tax practices, including making companies report where they make their profits and where they pay their taxes. It also proposed an agreed Europe-wide definition of tax havens that would allow tax dodgers to be named and shamed.

Because the Prime Minister concealed it

Or no requirement to declare at the time as it was below the threshold

I'm looking forward to the explanation of why the Guardian avoiding tax on the sale of Autotrader was OK but paying tax on the proceeds of an offshore trust isn't

Or no requirement to declare at the time as it was below the threshold

I don't recall saying that he was required to declare it. I do recall him having quite a lot to say about offshore funds, and I do recall him being asked several times about whether he had financially benefitted from such funds.

I'm looking forward to the explanation of why the Guardian avoiding tax on the sale of Autotrader was OK but paying tax on the proceeds of an offshore trust isn't

Well sure, but I'm kind of glad that its journalists are allowed to pursue this kind of investigation, regardless of the tax affairs of their parent company.

[img] [/img]

JHJ there's probably a key facts doc

[url= https://cryptome.org/pp-mf/cpi/Cameron-Iandoc2-cpi-16-0330.pdf ]Indeed there is[/url]... thanks for that, good info~ [url= http://www.cryptome.org/2012/01/cercle-pinay-6i.pdf ]find all sorts of handy stuff on Cryptome[/url]

At a quick glance, it confirms many of the links suggested in relation to the Carroll Trust have a factual basis.

Interesting how closely linked Blairmore Holdings is to [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hambros_Bank ]SG Hambros[/url] Bahamas:

Brent Haines
. [b]Mr Haines is Senior Manager, Fiduciary and Client Services of SG Hambros Bank & Trust (Bahamas) Limited.[/b]
James Hoar
. [b]Mr Hoar is Director, Marketing for SG Hambros Bank & Trust (Bahamas) Limited,[/b]
Betty Roberts
[b]. Mrs Roberts was until August 2004 Managing Director of SG Hambros Bank &
Trust (Bahamas) Limited. [/b]

ADMINISTRATOR

The Fund has retained SG Hambros Bank & Trust (Bahamas) Limited as Administrator.

SG Hambros, part of SG Private Banking, is a private bank providing a comprehensive wealth management service. The SG Hambros Group employs more than 400 people and manages over £5 billion of assets from its offices in the UK, Guernsey, Jersey, Gibraltar and The Bahamas.

BANKER & CUSTODIAN

The Fund has retained SG Hambros Bank & Trust (Bahamas) Limited as Banker & Custodian.

The Banker & Custodian will receive all subscription monies, transfer all redemption proceeds, maintain the Fund’s bank accounts and pay from the Fund’s accounts such bills, statements, taxes, calls or liabilities in respect of the securities in the Fund, custodian fees or other obligations of the Directors in respect of the Fund.

Also worth noting the ties to Coutts Bank:

As well as the London, Jersey, Guernsey and Gibraltar operations, a subsidiary of Coutts Bank in the Bahamas also became part of the SG Hambros Group.

Wonder if we can find more in relation to this aspect:

The Carroll Foundation Trust files are held within a complete lockdown at the FBI Washington DC field office and the Metropolitan Police Scotland Yard London under the supervision of the Commissioner Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe who has an intimate knowledge of this case which stretches the globe.

Why is that interesting?

I'm looking forward to the explanation of why the Guardian avoiding tax on the sale of Autotrader was OK but paying tax on the proceeds of an offshore trust isn't

No its because everyone loves a bit of whataboutery and when deflecting from our dear right wing leader it best to have a pop at a weak left wing target as it means folk start discussing that rather than Dave

Its been a reasonably successful strategy even if most of the replies were just mockery of the "point"

big_n_daft - Member
Because the Prime Minister concealed it
Or no requirement to declare at the time as it was below the threshold

This ^^

Crazy thread..

Crazy thread

It's not the thread though is it?, is the front page of every paper today

It's blown up because he tried to cover it up, and the Eurosceptics have seized on this and are hammering him for it

Why are folk surprised that people dont like to think our PM is a bit of wheeler dealer tax dodger?

He was political savvy enough to make sure he was not and politically savvy enough to realise why it would create a shit storm if/when it came out.
He was not politically savvy enough to handle the moment when it did come out well and has appeared to be be [ wait for it] evasive

People who say this is nothing - can you explain why the PM keeps changing his story?

And are you happy with our government voting against EU laws to crack down on tax evasion/avoidance?

I mean, I don't actually expect an answer just more whataboutery and straw men, but I thought I'd ask anyway.

This ^^

Crazy thread..

Well, yes. Anyone who thinks the argument is limited to "a requirement" has a very narrow perspective.

Junkyard - lazarus

Why are folk surprised that people dont like to think our PM is a bit of wheeler dealer tax dodger?

He was political savvy enough to make sure he was not and politically savvy enough to realise why it would create a shit storm if/when it came out.
He was not politically savvy enough to handle the moment when it did come out well and has appeared to be be [ wait for it] evasive

getting bad media advice isn't a crime,

He paid tax on the earnings from the scheme, ditched it prior to being PM

it's a non story being whipped up to try and create a bigger story

And are you happy with our government voting against EU laws to crack down on tax evasion/avoidance?

UK Governments of all colours have a poor record on this, the EU has a poor record, Junker turned Luxembourg into a tax haven and has screwed the rest of Europe

UK Governments of all colours have a poor record on this, the EU has a poor record, Junker turned Luxembourg into a tax haven and has screwed the rest of Europe

You went for the whataboutery option - good choice.

he's finished now, I'd just take the money, his shattered reputation and put me feet up and watch the others mess it all up. I'm sure he has enough to live on.

Hope they don't change the rules on hedge funds as thats my and many others pensions knackered.

Cameron's and the tories real problem is not that he got 30k from a tax-dodging investment fund, it's that at a time where he's cutting benefits to the disabled and saying the government can't afford to protect thousands of jobs in the steel industry, he's so rich he doesn't even know where the money came from.

[img] ?oh=d84fabe510d07d72bf444f8d336d46e2&oe=5787777B[/img]

And are you happy with our government voting against EU laws to crack down on tax evasion/avoidance?

No, but they didn't - they voted about against a motion in the European Parliament which has no ability to introduce such legislation - this motion was more akin to signing a petition.

he's finished now, I'd just take the money, his shattered reputation and put me feet up and watch the others mess it all up.

Or just watch Glastonbury at home in front of a warm fire, in June.

[url= https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/659233/David-Cameron-Glastonbury-Downing-Street-politics ]Cameron mocked after claiming he watches Glastonbury in front of 'warm fire'... in JUNE[/url]

Or just watch Glastonbury at home in front of a warm fire, in June.

Big houses in the country are notoriously difficult to heat.

Of course it a massive story - Dave is rich and wait for it he is the son of someone even richer who may have used some of his riches to provide for his family. SCANDAL.....RESIGN.....err, what for?

As Robert Shrimlsey neatly writes in the FT

Teams of investigative journalists who spent months ploughing through the millions of documents have now proved that the British PM's late father, Ian, ran an offshore investment fund that seemingly did nothing illegal. Even more serious is the revelation that his father had been doing nothing seemingly illegal without his son's involvement

😉

I think he has dodgy shares in Starbucks, given the amount of froth he has generated!!!

Grum - by voting against EU measures do you mean making it a requirement to disclose the beneficiaries of all trusts in some sort of register? That was what the government blocked, and on balance I agree with that decision. They didn't block a move to require disclosure of beneficial interests in companies, again a good decision IMHO.

Trusts are a special feature of Anglo Saxon jurisprudence and have many important functions that simetimes require anonymity of some sort. There's also the more practical issue that anyone can establish a trust arrangement making some sort of central repository a bit of a non starter. Anyway lots of info around on trusts for you to make up your own mind, my view is that the EU remedy was the wrong one (not to say there isn't a better one to come up with).

PS which government changed tax law to ensure that overseas shell companies holding property were liable for tax?

getting bad media advice isn't a crime,

I'm banning the word 'whataboutery'. It's too irritating.

which government changed tax law to ensure that overseas shell companies holding property were liable for tax?

Her Majesty's?

julians can you ban people doing it (all the time) first please?

Because the Prime Minister concealed it.

@tmh 😀

I see the frantic whatabouterry and straw man defences are out in force, keep clutching at those straws

I must excuse myself JY but all these attacks on Cameron are fantastic ahead of the Referendum, pure genius as far as I am concerned

jambalaya you are a logical fallacy spotting wet dream. It just makes 'debate' utterly pointless.

whatabouterry

You can't get round the ban by spelling it incorrectly

Her Majesty's?

Non dom numbers exploded under Labour at least the tories made token gesture by restricting (cough cough) them to 17 years of residency if continous. How about 5 and make that cumulative to avoid non-dons just spending a year abroad once in every 17.

Let's imagine for a moment that all of the following problems can be linked to offshore tax havens, most of which come under the jurisdiction of the British Crown

Illicit Arms Trafficking
ISIS/Daesh
The Refugee Crisis
Human Trafficking and organized Child Abuse
Environmental Catastrophe
Climate Change and the melting of the Polar Ice Caps

Worth having a go at making a positive change?

@grum feel free to ignore me, as I posted on another thread to Cougar I'd be glad for STW to have the type of forum software the other places I frequent use which has an Ignore function - feel free to support that and then use it. All I am doing is supporting current and past Labour government stances on these matters.

If Cameron Senior had his time again he could just gift Cameron Junior all his wealth 7+ years before his death. Of course none of that would make any difference to those attacking "rich boy" Cameron

Here are the fund details

http://www.trustnetoffshore.com/Factsheets/Factsheet.aspx?fundCode=NWBH&univ=DC

You need $100,000 minimum to invest but the good news is that it can be included in an ISA. I wonder if Jimmy Carr's scheme allowed that 🙂

Of course none of that would make any difference to those attacking "rich boy" Cameron

I know, those Eurosceptic Tories, 'kippers and media moguls would still be leading the charge, they really have no shame

Just look at the sort of malicious comments they make....

all these attacks on Cameron are fantastic ahead of the Referendum, pure genius as far as I am concerned

You'd think we had a secret police amonsgt us considering some of the comments on here...you know guys, you can criticise your leader. He won't come and get you for subservience...IMO he"s making you look foolish - defending him for what everyone knows has been unethical, deceptive and hypocritical Prime Ministerial behaviour....