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Now it looks like it might be Steve Bell's turn:
Just heard on the radio Labour peers plan an unprecedented no confidence vote on JC...
Baroness Hayter is being interviewed on Radio 4 at the moment. She found out she had been sacked via the Corbynite social media channels (which appear to be the only way he communicates with the world). They announced her sacking without any consultation with her. She has still had no contact at all with Corbyns office.
Corbyns office have been asked for a comment on it but have said that nobody was available.
She's commented, quite correctly, that if you want to prove that you don't have a 'bunker mentality' its probably best not to shoot the messenger. Again.
Just heard on the radio Labour peers plan an unprecedented no confidence vote on JC…
Doesn't mean a thing. Even if the MPs had a vote of no confidence (again) the £3 blackshirts would just give him another go. Again.
Doesn’t mean a thing. Even if the MPs had a vote of no confidence (again) the £3 blackshirts would just give him another go. Again.
Only if he wants the job, and I don't think he does. He's got the required rule changes to ensure the next leader will be from his wing of the party, he can go any time now with his job done.
I suspect he's only been staying because of the the people chanting his name and to take the flak for the next incumbent in the (long) run up to an election. Well people have stopped chanting and an election could be just around the corner.
He might be glad of a good excuse to quit.
Not sure where Unite fit into this. They seem keen to keep him on and I don't really know why.
The trouble with that is that he'll only be allowed to go if Seamas says he can go.
And Seamas doesn't look like he's quite completed his task of making the Labour party completely and utterly unelectable just yet (so very nearly there) as the Tory's keep making his job harder. Just when he thinks he's got it done and dusted, up pops Chris Grayling, Andrea Leadsome, Dominic Raab or some other six-toed, born-to-rule pony-****er.
Corbyn does remain his greatest possible asset for the task in hand though, so for the time being I suspect he'll be going nowhere. Literally and metaphorically
Unelectable. Anyone mentioned that yet I’m not reading another 460 pages to find out.
I think it's best if you don't compare your party leader to Hitler. I assume you critics were similarly supportive of Ken Livingstone when he compared a newspaper reporter to a Nazi?
I assume you critics were similarly supportive of Ken Livingstone when he compared a newspaper reporter to a Nazi?
Not sure if I count as a critic but personally I had no problem with that comparison. He was just making the point the newspaper guy was just following orders. I also had no problem with KL's 'Hitler was a zionist' comment. In the context he was talking about it he was correct. Not sure it was wise for a senior politician to mention Nazis at all in public discourse but I didn't feel the comparisons were wrong. In the journo case KL wasn't calling the guy a mass murderer, he was calling him an "order follower".
I know for a fact JC has compared journalists to Vermin, and I think he had a point. Is Vermin better than Nazi? I'm not sure it is.
He was just making the point the newspaper guy was just following orders.
I believe this comment came after the reporter identified himself as Jewish.
I think it’s best if you don’t compare your party leader to Hitler
Maybe try taking the tinfoil helmet off for a bit comrade.
She didn't accuse him of being some kind of nazi. She accused him and his team of having a bunker mentality, rather than implying any genocidal instincts towards Jews, or owt.
Whats funny is that since sacking her (without actually communicating with her) Corbyns team have been comically efficient in proving her assertion correct. But I suppose when you live in a bunker, its difficult to see even the most obvious....
I think it’s best if you don’t compare your party leader to Hitler.
It does seem supremely arrogant and distasteful, especially seeing as the criticism actually relates specifically to the accusations of antisemitism. It’s not surprising she was fired, really.
Genuine question; how much of the antisemitism row do people think originated from the conflation of (understandable) criticism of the government of Israel with (antisemitic) criticism of Jews in general?
Seems to be an easy way to spread muck, although I completely recognise that stupid/ignorant/racist stuff has been said by stupid/ignorant/racist people.
I believe this comment came after the reporter identified himself as Jewish.
That's not my recollection and it's hard to imagine how that conversation would go:
Paparazzi Vermin: Hi, I'm Jewish.
Seems unlikely.
My recollection is the Journo said he was Jewish after he'd been accused of following orders.
Maybe try taking the tinfoil helmet off for a bit comrade.
She didn’t accuse him of being some kind of nazi. She accused him and his team of having a bunker mentality, rather than implying any genocidal instincts towards Jews, or owt.
When it comes to spin, you have much to learn from your hero Alastair Campbell. In actual
fact she compared him to the last days of Hitler. Funny how you missed that reference out.
Now you can get back to stamping your feet.
My recollection is the Journo said he was Jewish after he’d been accused of following orders.
My recollection is that Livingstone carried on with the comparison after he had been told. Which seems antisemitic to me.
Genuine question; how much of the antisemitism row do people think originated from the conflation of (understandable) criticism of the government of Israel with (antisemitic) criticism of Jews in general?
As was mentioned earlier, it's difficult to see how sending death threats and torrents of abuse to Margaret Hodge and Luciana Berger for no other reason than being Jewish and not being big fans of JC, actually advance the chances of a two state solution.
In actual fact she compared him to the last days of Hitler.
I think the 'bunker mentality' reference, rather than any implication of being genocidal, is fairly obvious to all but the professionally offended who are trying to conflate it with something it clearly isn't, for whatever reason
Genuine question; how much of the antisemitism row do people think originated from the conflation of (understandable) criticism of the government of Israel with (antisemitic) criticism of Jews in general?
None IMHO. All the alleged anti Semitic comments I've seen have been nothing to do with Israel or Palestine. Can you think of an example of an anti-semetic comment that has been raised that you think was a misunderstood criticism of the government of Israel?
Taking Rasnos example of Ken Livingstone from above I can't see any element of criticism of the government of Israel in it. [1]
Calling female MPs 'Zionist Cum Bags' isn't criticism of the government of Israel either.
On a tangent: The LibDems, Torys, Greens and SNP just don't seem to suffer from this level of name calling. The Tory party is utterly split and they still appear civil to each other. Leaving aside the Anti Semitism claims Labour member just don't seem to engage in a very high level of discourse. It's straight to the Ad Hom. Even if you conclude that there is no Anti-Semitism whatsover how is calling each other 'Cum buckets' a good idea?
[1] Mind ewe it doesn't seem anti-semtic to me either.
My recollection is that Livingstone carried on with the comparison after he had been told. Which seems antisemitic to me.
Ok, I can't be bothered to check so I'll grant you that instance of Anti Semitism in the Labour party.
I think the ‘bunker mentality’ reference, rather than any implication of being genocidal, is fairly obvious to all but the professionally offended who are trying to conflate it with something it clearly isn’t, for whatever reason
I think your continued insistence on ignoring the reference to Hitler makes it pretty obvious to all that you're not going to let the facts get in the way of another one of your toddler temper tantrums.
Calling female MPs ‘Zionist Cum Bags’ isn’t criticism of the government of Israel either.
Interesting one that, because as well as being incredibly rude and offensive, it strikes me as anti Zionist rather than antisemitic, per se. Is it possible to be anti Zionist without being antisemitic? Many Jews think so. I’m interested, and on the fence, as I don’t have a dog in the fight. What is obvious is that both sides are using accusations of various forms of racism for political point scoring, which kinda cheapens the whole argument.
On a tangent: The LibDems, Torys, Greens and SNP just don’t seem to suffer from this level of name calling.
Do you reckon that would be the case, particularly for the tories, if the same amount of effort was put into it?
Have you ventured near the telegraph comment boards. Admittedly many of those like Binners will just be whiners unwilling to try and change their party but not all.
I think your continued insistence on ignoring the reference to Hitler makes it pretty obvious to all that you’re not going to let the facts get in the way of another one of your toddler temper tantrums.
Context, dear boy. Context.
So, seeing as I'm clearly missing something here (I'm not very bright), as well as the obvious 'bunker mentality' reference, in the context in which she used it, what is she accusing him of?
Feel free to give me the benefit of your superior interpretive powers...
Ok, I can’t be bothered to check so I’ll grant you that instance of Anti Semitism in the Labour party.
How very gracious of you.
More seriously, you were (as most people do) separating criticism of Israel from anti-semitism. Yet the International Remembrance Holocaust Association conflates the two in the guidelines that accompany its definition. The Jerusalem Post reported approvingly that "One can thus authoritatively claim that promoting BDS (boycott, divestment & sanctions), which focuses exclusively on Israel and/or the disputed areas, is antisemitic."
Context, dear boy. Context.
So, seeing as I’m clearly missing something here (I’m not very bright), as well as the obvious ‘bunker mentality’ reference, in the context in which she used it, what is she accusing him of?
Feel free to give me the benefit of your superior interpretive powers…
First you tell me that the context makes it ok to compare Corbyn to Hitler, then you tell me that you're missing something.
You're right that you're missing something: a scintilla of sincerity.
More seriously, you were (as most people do) separating criticism of Israel from anti-semitism. Yet the International Remembrance Holocaust Association conflates the two in the guidelines that accompany its definition.
And yet the LP were hounded to adopt it in toto.
The Jerusalem post can claim what it likes, but none of the antisemitism claims as regards party members have anything to do with support for BDS.
And try talking about having a bunker mentality without any reference to Downfall…
First you tell me that the context makes it ok to compare Corbyn to Hitler, then you tell me that you’re missing something.
You’re right that you’re missing something: a scintilla of sincerity.
Eh? .... erm.... ok....?
Thanks for clearing that all up for me.
FFS - stay out of it Kelvin.
And yet the LP were hounded to adopt it in toto.
Yeah, I found that quite troubling.
Interesting one that, because as well as being incredibly rude and offensive, it strikes me as anti Zionist rather than antisemitic,
Yeah, the antisemitism is debatable, the total un-acceptableness isn't. My own personal view is you wouldn't use "Zionist" as a personal insult unless you were anti-semitic, it wouldn't make sense. I think lots of the other so called ant-semitic comments weren't anti Semitic. However that's not what you said, you said that some of the controversial comments were actually criticism of the state of Israel and as far as I can tell literally none are.
anti Zionist without being anti-semitic? Many Jews think so.
I can't really show how. Essentially that means you want the 75pc of Israelis who are Jewish banished to some undisclosed location [1] leaving the 25pc non Jewish people unharmed. I really can't see how that is anything other than anti-semitic.
...and if you said you wanted all of Israel rid of all Israelis regardless of nationality would that be better? Not to my mind.
This is really quite a tangent.
Do you reckon that would be the case, particularly for the tories, if the same amount of effort was put into it?
But they don't put effort into it, they just skip the ad homs and have an actual debate. Jo Swinson doesn't get call a cum bucket. No death threats. It really is a Labour phenomenon.
[1] Or 'driven into the sea'.
I can’t really show how. Essentially that means you want the 75pc of Israelis who are Jewish banished to some undisclosed location [1] leaving the 25pc non Jewish people unharmed. I really can’t see how that is anything other than anti-semitic.
Well no, because a Jewish state (zionism) is not the same thing as a state of Jews. Zionism is a political aim also supported by non-jews, equally, there are various Jewish groups who oppose a Jewish state, for various reasons. There's one orthodix group/ sect opposing the state of Israel because they believe it should only come into existence after the coming of the messiah.
Some of those groups have been derided as "kapos"; it's pretty difficult to think of anything more offensive.
Ooh look, Ma, I'm all growed up now!! I posted a Monty Python picture!!
FFS – stay out of it Kelvin.
Reported for self abuse.
I can’t really show how. Essentially that means you want the 75pc of Israelis who are Jewish banished to some undisclosed location [1] leaving the 25pc non Jewish people unharmed. I really can’t see how that is anything other than anti-semitic.
As I recall, some Jews consider Israel as "bad" because they believe that the Jewish state should be established by God, not Man. Or something along those lines - I'm sure Google would help!
I’m REALLY no expert, but I’m sure that you can think that the historical manner in which Israel came in to being is troubling, whilst still accepting the de facto existence of Israel. Similarly one can feel deeply uncomfortable about how India, ****stan and latterly Bangladesh were created, without wanting to get all invadey and map redrawingy about it.
There is something as deeply concerning about this weaponisation of bigotry and perceived bigotry, as there is about the bigotry itself.
Aaaah.... I think I get it now....
No death threats. It really is a Labour phenomenon.
That’s literally not true is it. (RIP Jo Cox). And the Daily Mail comments sections contain as many bat shit right wing mentalist who crack on with insulting socialists as any left wing loonys do attacking their perceived enemies. It’s not unique to either political leaning, it’s a problem with idiot people and the increasing polarisation of politics.
Zionism and anti-zionism discussed here in an Israeli context:
NB. 'the £3 blackshirts', can't you stoop any lower?
NB. ‘the £3 blackshirts’, can’t you stoop any lower?
Yeah! Brown shirts, surely? 🙄
Binners thinks people should stop being racist and be nicer to each other lol
Heal thyself sixth form comrade your talking jambabollocks.
I’m REALLY no expert, but I’m sure that you can think that the historical manner in which Israel came in to being is troubling, whilst still accepting the de facto existence of Israel.
Yup, but if you hold that view you're not an anti-zionist:
"Anti-Zionism is opposition to Zionism. The term is broadly defined in the modern era to denote opposition to the political movement of Jews to self-determination within the territory of the historic Land of Israel"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism
That’s literally not true is it. (RIP Jo Cox).
Sorry, I meant out of the mainstream parties, not out of every party .
As in my original post: "The LibDems, Torys, Greens and SNP just don’t seem to suffer from this level of name calling."
I very much doubt Thomas Mair was a card carrying Libdem.
No, I disagree. You can dislike, find distasteful, be uncomfortable with (and therefore be ‘anti’) the Zionist founding of Israel, whilst still recognising that what is done is done. Lots of States around the world are founded in iffy circumstances; by their nature there are winners and losers. Doesn’t mean that there’s anything to be gained by revisiting history.
I very much doubt Thomas Mair was a card carrying Libdem.
No, but you get my point. It’s not ‘a Labour issue’ it’s a fringe extremist lunatic issue. The Labour problem is that the loonies haven’t got a left wing UKIP equivalent to migrate to. Although there are still plenty of loonies in and supporting the Tories, too.
No, I disagree. You can dislike, find distasteful, be uncomfortable with(and therefore be ‘anti’) the Zionist founding of Israel, whilst still recognising that what is done is done.
Yup, you can do all those things, but if you did you wouldn't be an anti-Zionist. Anti-Zionist doesn't mean 'reluctant Zionist'.