Jeremy Corbyn

Seriously though Molls... would you be volunteering?

Theres a reason we haven't a clue whats going on. Because the beardy blokes get all beheady if they suspect you might be there to see whats going on. Then theres the other side dropping barrel bombs from Helicopters, and all the other heavily armed nut-jobs aligned to god-knows-who, all having their I'm-more-Islamic-than-you fun and games

So if we've not a clue whats going on on the ground, how on earth are we meant to deal with it by lobbing more bombs around?

I know that as a former colonial superpower its all very irritating, and a bit embarrassing, to the politicians in Westminster to realise that they're completely impotent, but we are, so we need to deal with that fact and move on. Do we really need another disastrous escapade to ram home the limits of our shrinking military capability?

Only one politician is presently saying this. And I think a dose of realism would be very welcome to a lot of people.

Much like the Afghan President invited the Soviet Union to intervene and the Vietnamese government requested assistance from the USA!

Or why the communist insurgencies in Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam and China had popular support.

Seriously though Molls... would you be volunteering?

No, but I'm not an intelligence operative. You'll notice that I am NOT advocating lobbing bombs around, that is in fact the opposite of what I am suggesting.

No, but I'm not an intelligence operative.

Are suicide missions in their job description? We haven't got a clue whats going on, so why on earth do we think that we have the answers?

We need to get over our colonial arrogance, once and for all

and you can only get so much information from satellites.

Which is why they aren't only using satellites but a whole raft of information gathering and surveillance kit. The UK alone has out there 10 drones, Rivet Joint aircraft, Tornado's with RAPTOR pods, the GCHQ/NSA base on Cyprus and also in certain cases there have been boots on the ground. The US will have plenty as well, with France having just entered performing surveillance activities as well.

Oooooooooo - we're talking military hardware again. I love it when we do that. Big guns and stuff. And how they provide the answers to everything, almost magically.

Tell me more.... I'm feeling all.... well.... you know......

Just pointing out that you said we have no intel when we clearly do. And your main issue for not intervening seems to be we have no intel.

where as you just want to bomb someone in Syria and ignore the fact that we have changed sides

I would not class that as an intelligence based position personally.

Only one politician is presently saying this. And I think a dose of realism would be very welcome to a lot of people.

i think the Saturday morning UK news is going to be interesting. Just look at all the same tired old faces and new ones being dragged along on the establishments' panicking coat tails all lining up to give it both limp barrels in the media like a lot of swivel-eyed crazies shouting about the end of the world. You know what? I think that at the next election the country may very well, exhaustedly, just shrug say "Oh what the ****. Corbyn. Why not?" I might even do that meself just for the hell of it.

dragon - Member
Just pointing out that you said we have no intel when we clearly do. And your main issue for not intervening seems to be we have no intel.

The intel seems to be almost worthless going by the evidence though.

Just pointing out that you said we have no intel when we clearly do.

Is it helping us to decide which side we're on this week?

so why on earth do we think that we have the answers?

What gave you that idea?

I said that we should be trying to find out, then I realised we probably were, and had probably concluded that there was not much we could do. Possibly could be different with more money or political support.

Unlike you binners I don't think I have all the answers!

I said that we should be trying to find out, then I realised we probably were, and had probably concluded that there was not much we could do.

"Intelligence" said that factionalism was to be encouraged within Syria, as a means of toppling Assad. How did that work out?

Mr Woppit - Member
You know what? I think that at the next election the country may very well, exhaustedly, just shrug say "Oh what the ****. Corbyn. Why not?" I might even do that meself just for the hell of it.

Nope. That's not going to happen for a while. 😛

"Oh what the ****. Corbyn. Why not?" I might even do that meself just for the hell of it.

+1

Or Caroline Lucas, who seems to be the only person in recent days pointing out the sickening irony of hosting an International Arms Trade Fair in London whilst debating the Refugee Crisis. Curiously unreported anywhere though... 😕

I said that we should be trying to find out, then I realised we probably were, and had probably concluded that there was not much we could do.

The opposite of that is actually true Molls. Its abundantly clear that we've not a scooby's whats actually happening on the ground in places like Aleppo. For very obvious reason - the unfortunate fact that its difficult to report back what you've observed when you haven't got a head,

Yet despite this fact, Dave is advocating military action in Syria? Against who, this time? And to achieve an outcome of what exactly?

Again... this is a colonial arrogance that somehow we'll just rock up, put the uppity natives in their place, and everyone will be eternally grateful. Despite the massively overwhelming evidence to the contrary that the last decade has so relentlessly delivered.

Its .... Oooooo I get to use a Tony Quote on a Corbyn thread.... 'Alice in Wonderland Politics'.

In this instance its everyone else indulging in it, not Jezza. He's the only one talking sense.

Dave is advocating military action in Syria? Against who, this time? And to achieve an outcome of what exactly?

[i]You may be confused about why we are bombing Iraq and Syria. So we will make ourselves very clear.

We support the Iraqi government in the fight against ISIS.

We don't like ISIS, but ISIS has been supported by Saudi Arabia, whom we do like, and Saudi Arabia is now supporting us in bombing ISIS.

We don't like President Assad in Syria. We support the fight against him, but not ISIS, which is also fighting against him.

We don't like Iran, but Iran supports the Iraqi government against ISIS.

So some of our friends support our enemies and some of our enemies are our friends, and some of our enemies are fighting against our other enemies whom we want to lose, but we don't want our enemies who are fighting our enemies to win.

If the people we want to defeat are defeated, they might be replaced by people we like even less.

And all this was started by us invading Iraq to drive out terrorists who weren't there until we went to drive them out.

We hope you now understand. [/i]

http://stopwar.org.uk/news/obama-and-cameron-clear-up-any-confusion-about-why-they-are-bombing-iraq-and-syria

13thfloormonk - Member

"Oh what the ****. Corbyn. Why not?" I might even do that meself just for the hell of it.

+1

Or Caroline Lucas, who seems to be the only person in recent days pointing out the sickening irony of hosting an International Arms Trade Fair in London whilst debating the Refugee Crisis. Curiously unreported anywhere though...

The world ends at that instant ... 😯

good post Ernie - this level of confusion means there is no basis for clear objectives to be set nor for strategy to be executed - certainly not one that involves a military option.

Scary examples of mission creep going on plus a willingness to engage military solutions without basic questions being answered. When will we learn?

*Breathes huge sigh of relief*

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/sep/11/sadiq-khan-elected-as-labours-candidate-for-mayor-of-london ]Sadiq Khan elected as Labour's candidate for mayor of London[/url]

I can't believe that such a pointless and self-serving "Labour" politician as Tessa Jowell was in with a chance, let alone be considered the front-runner.

Worryingly, that article has just reminded me that if Jezza does get elected then we'll probably see the return to front-bench politics of....

Diane Abbott

Electoral kryptonite

Diane Abbott

Totally outclassed on "This Week" by Michael Portillo.

It is interesting how Corbyn's win will reverse the political fortunes of a number of politicians. A lot of relatively young ones like Liz Kendall will be thinking, this isn't why I got into politics, to kickabout on the backbenches. Whereas Diane Abbott must have had no expectation she might be in the shadow cabinet just a few weeks back.

[quote=badnewz said] Whereas Diane Abbott must have had no expectation she might be in the shadow cabinet

<shudders>

Diane Abbott

Electoral kryptonite

Diane Abbot isn't popular on STW but she is fairly popular among Labour voters.

[url= http://www.newstatesman.com/staggers/2014/06/poll-reveals-diane-abbott-mp-labour-voters-favourite-london-mayoral-candidate ]Poll reveals Diane Abbott MP as Labour voters’ favourite for London mayoral candidate[/url]

Diane Abbot has already served as a shadow minister and imo she has greater credibility than Tessa Jowell - I just don't see the point of Tessa Jowell. Unlike Tessa Jowell Diane Abbot strongly opposed the Iraq War, which imo is a fair gauge of a politician's credibility and judgement.

Diane Abbot isn't popular on STW but she is fairly popular among [b]London[/b] Labour voters.

London ain't the UK, as the writer of the article in your previous link acknowledges.

Yes I am well aware that London isn't the UK. What's your point - that Diane Abbott is fairly popular among London Labour voters but deeply disliked outside London?

If so what is it based on - a hunch or some evidence?

Khan, who comfortably beat off the challenge of Tessa Jowell, said he was overwhelmed, adding that he had never dreamed he would be standing as Labour candidate for mayor

He's probably not alone there!

Still a shot in the arm for Jezza - quite a dramatic and remarkable transformation in the Opposition in a matter of months. Interesting to see how it all plays out

If DA comes back then perhaps Grammar Schools will be back in vogue!! So old Dave chooses a state secondary and while the Opposition chose alternatives (Ok Jezza fell out with the missus on that one). Funny old world

this is a colonial arrogance that somehow we'll just rock up, put the uppity natives in their place, and everyone will be eternally grateful.

I really don't think it's this.

I think they want to help, but aren't bright enough to know how to do it very well, and are heavily swayed by public opinion.

I'm still confused about who the enemy is...
the IS (ex-Saddam Sunni led forces) in Iraq
the IS (anti-Assad Sunni forces) in Syria
Iran & it's Shiite militia friend
our good 'friends & allies' Turkey attacking those PKK Kurdish terrorists
Those terrorists/freedom fighter Kurds
Those terrorist supporting Saudi's and it's Sunni dictator friends

Or can we just ignore them and pay Greece's Euro debt if they promise to look after all the refugees nicely?

I'm still confused about who the enemy is...

Pretty much everybody, just about covers it. But give Dave 6 months, on his present mindless course, and if there's anyone we've not yet completely pissed off in the region, we'll probably have managed it by then

If so what is it based on - a hunch or some evidence?

Gender and skin colour I'm guessing. Or her incredibly annoying accent and mannerisms.

Khan, who comfortably beat off the challenge of Tessa Jowell, said he was overwhelmed, adding that he had never dreamed he would be standing as Labour candidate for mayor

Not a totally surprising thing to hear from the son of a ****stani immigrant bus driver who was brought up in a council flat with 7 other brothers and sisters.

It would be more surprising to hear Boris Johnson make a similar remark.

Gender and skin colour I'm guessing. Or her incredibly annoying accent and mannerisms.

I find the sanctimonious preachyness more irritating than anything. She single-handedly personifies a certain type of lefty we-know-whats-best-for-you attitude that went with Nu Labour

yes, the boy's "done good" - all credit to him

My point is you can't extrapolate Labour voters in London to Labour voters in the rest of the UK.

It would be more surprising to hear Boris Johnson make a similar remark.

I would definitely be surprised to hear that Boris Johnson would be standing as a labour candidate for mayor.

My point is you can't extrapolate Labour voters in London to Labour voters in the rest of the UK.

MSP 😀

In the meantime, Dave loses the Yorkshire voters

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-34222801

I would definitely be surprised to hear that Boris Johnson would be standing as a labour candidate for mayor.

Which is why I said "similar remark" and not "the same remark".

.

My point is you can't extrapolate Labour voters in London to Labour voters in the rest of the UK.

But you can extrapolate Binner's obvious dislike for Diane Abott and apply it to the rest of the UK?

She single-handedly personifies a certain type of lefty we-know-whats-best-for-you attitude that went with Nu Labour

Dead Ringers on R4 do a hilarious send-up of her. If you haven't heard it get on I-Player.

Dave loses the Yorkshire voters

I dunno, I reckons there's fair few heads nodding in 'greement round gods own county at t'minute 😀

Cameron claims Boycott & Dickie Bird agree with him. So that's OK then.

haha 😀