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Goodness me!!
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/03/us-isis-syria-iraq?CMP=share_btn_tw ]
Now the truth emerges: how the US (+UK) fuelled the rise of Isis in Syria and Iraq[/url]
On Monday the trial in London of a Swedish man, Bherlin Gildo, accused of terrorism in Syria, collapsed after it became clear British intelligence had been arming the same rebel groups the defendant was charged with supporting.The prosecution abandoned the case, apparently to avoid embarrassing the intelligence services. The defence argued that going ahead withthe trial would have been an “affront to justice” when there was plenty of evidence the British state was itself providing “extensive support” to the armed Syrian opposition.
That didn’t only include the “non-lethal assistance” boasted of by the government (including body armour and military vehicles), but training, logistical support and the secret supply of “arms on a massive scale”. Reports were cited that MI6 had cooperated with the CIA on a “rat line” of arms transfers from Libyan stockpiles to the Syrian rebels in 2012 after the fall of the Gaddafi regime.
From your link:
That doesn’t mean the US created Isis, of course, though some of its Gulf allies certainly played a role in it
Everyone knows the US and UK have been providing some assistance to rather poorly-vetted Syrian rebel groups. No-one thinks they deliberately planned to create the current mess.
Americas allies are funding ISISWell why don't you read about that in the newspapers
To be perfectly honest, it's been reported. Repeatedly. And widely. In mainstream media. For quite a few years. That Daesh have been supported by nations considered allies of the West (well, the U.S.). Even having received some support directly or indirectly from the west itself.
Google is not your friend, clearly. Either that or you're intentionally ignoring what doesn't support your particular stance.
I did kind of regret writing 'why don't you read that in the newspapers' as the Murdoch Media Empire goes far beyond newspapers these days.
Even though some outlets do report on CIA/MI6's involvement, it is rarely given any prominence~ the headlines may cover ISIS's latest attrocity, whilst buried deep within the newspaper/website, if you're lucky, there'll be a little bit on how the west helped create ISIS, as of course did close allies Saudi Arabia...
The Middle East is very very complicated, to try and divide it into Allies of the West and not is far too simplistic. Also groups and individuals switch allegiance very quickly, its a very fluid situation.
As an aside have people seen the reports that the ISIS weapons dump which was destroyed was discovered as an ISIS member posted a selfie on social media saying it was a weapons dump. US sent three big weapons directly onto it. Excellent.
Allegiance with Saudi Arabia, who actively export wahabism/salafism is well established, going back decades.
The long serving head of Saudi intelligence, [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turki_bin_Faisal_Al_Saud ]Prince Turki bin Faisal Al Saud [/url] who oversaw Operation Cyclone, which led to the rise of Al-Qaeda and the Taliban, was a known associate of Osama Bin Laden. He continued as head of Saudi intelligence until just before 9/11.
However, after finishing his time with Saudi intelligence, he became ambassador to the Court of St James' Palace, before becoming Ambassador to the US.
Here is the $3.4bn fence the Saudis are building to keep out ISIS. They have also been the victim of a number of ISIS suicide bombings in the last month, usually on Fridays when the mosque is full 😐
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Amazing. A desert Maginot Line.
Because obviously, if the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is under threat from islamist lunatics:
1) all of them will clearly be on the Northern side of the massive fence; and
2) it is literally impossible for them to enter Kuwait or Jordan.
it is literally impossible for them to enter Kuwait or Jordan.
Perhaps Kuwait and Jordan are densely forested which makes the movement of ISIS heavy armour impossible ?
I knew I'd missed something. In that case: strategic master-stroke.
🙂 Maginot Line and all that ...
ISIS wont come at Saudi with too many vehicles. Saudi desert has many US bases, Apachies, drones etc. Plus Saudi army will fight back unlike Iraqis. Terrorits / Suicide bombers much more troublesome with a degree of local support
IIRC the Maginot Line was an excellent idea had the French government not considered it to be "rude and impolite", with respect to the Belgians, to extend it between France and Belgium.
Unfortunately when the French got to the point of "**** the Belgians" it was already too late.
[i]there'll be a little bit on how the west helped create ISIS, as of course did close allies Saudi Arabia...[/i]
TBF JHJ this is pretty widely reported. I've seen and read countless articles from Fisk in the Independent and Guardian, to even the idiot Frank Gardner on the Beeb.
Mainstream. and even if you don't want mainstream, a quick google will return 100's of articles on it.
Still not headline material though...
Jihadi John doesn't seem to have had much coverage since it was revealed he'd had prior contact with MI5.
If weapons were being supplied covertly as recently as 2012, when did CIA/MI6 (Saudi Intelligence?) stop supplying weapons?
Jihadi John doesn't seem to have had much coverage since it was revealed he'd had prior contact with MI5.
The press are in collusion with MI5? "Jihadi John" was getting massive press coverage because it was in line with MI5 policy? However once it was revealed he had 'prior contact with MI5' all that changed and the press were instructed not to mention him anymore?
You inhabit a very strange conspricy world JHJ. Clearly it's disconnected from reality but presumably it satisfies your needs.
We've covered DA notices beforehand, I'm not going to go over it all again.
If weapons were being supplied covertly as recently as 2012, when did CIA/MI6 (Saudi Intelligence?) stop supplying weapons?
idiot Frank Gardner
Nick. Curious as to why you think he is an idiot. I have heard him speak at a company presentation and met him in the pub once and he seems a pretty good journalist and a decent bloke.
I usually agree with a lot of what Ernie Lynch says, but I have to disagree on the issues of jews being scared of further 'pogroms'. They are.
Mostly as he fails as a journalist (as part of the Beeb, not a massive surprise)
He will repeat, almost without flinching, the govt line uncritically. Any assertion that comes from security forces for example is accepted and largely just reproduced by Gardner. Once I heard a report from Andrew Parker's (DG security Services) speech that was just re-reported as "fact" uncritically by Gardner the same day.
It's not just Gardner to be fair, most of the foreign BBC correspondents are pretty poor at their jobs (reporting critically the facts, rather than as a mouthpiece of foreign policy)
Understood, perhaps he just agrees with policy ? BBC generally criticized by the government of being too left/too critical
I have to disagree on the issues of jews being scared of further 'pogroms'.
You agree with jambalaya that Israel ignores international public opinion because doing so could result in Jews ending up in concentrations camps ?
The holocaust is regularly brought by Zionist apologists to justify Israel's disgraceful and brutal behaviour, fortunately global public opinion is increasingly rejecting this nonsense.
The long serving head of Saudi intelligence, Prince Turki bin Faisal Al Saud who oversaw Operation Cyclone, which led to the rise of Al-Qaeda and the Taliban, was a known associate of Osama Bin Laden. He continued as head of Saudi intelligence until just before 9/11.
As an example of how irreverent that may or may not be. ISIS was reported this morning to have carried out a mass execution of Taliban in Afghanistan.
It's not a 'them and us' situation. There are many sides, each with their own agendas. Some of which we suppourt, others we don't, sometimes we're supporting a group doing one thing but not their other policies.
The West Bank was in Jordan. Jordan and Israel fought a war and Jordan signed the land over to Israel.
Two sentences of absolute cobblers. The West Bank was never part of the state of Jordan - it was only ever under military occupation (unless you're an official of the British, ****stani or Iraqi governments). Its capture by Israel was merely the substitution of one occupation for another.
[i]Understood, perhaps he just agrees with policy ?[/i]
perhaps he does, but that's not his job though. His job should be to offer critical analysis of events, not repeat 'as fact' whatever the security forces say (which as a general rule; is what he does)
But as I've said, that's pretty much the role of the BBC these days regardless of the opinion the "idiot right" have of it.
fortunately global public opinion is increasingly rejecting this nonsense
Not true at all. US public opinion is very firmly behind Israel. Even in the UK during the Gaza crises 50% of people felt Israels response was justified given the rocket attacks. It's a bit like "shy Tories", the anti Israel campaigners have the loudest voices but are not the most numerous. The US Presidential elections will install a much more pro-Israeli candidate. During the Gaza conflict there where large pro-Israeli rallies in India, that's a country of a billion people.
I am guessing I speak to more Jewish people than you do @ernie, their fears are very real. I did not say thet where afraid of concentraion camps, i said they have had experience of governments and populations saying they would be safe and they where anything but. They are justifiably worried about increasing violent and intimidatory undertones. Its one reason the property market in Israel is so strong as European Jews make sure they have an exit to Israel if necessary. Despite all the wars around them in israel they feel they will be safer there as the IDF will protect them. They don't really trust the European Governments. Already 80% of the worlds Jews live in Israel or the US.
As an aside the damage caused to Gaza by the election of Hamas in 2006 after Isreal's withdraw from the city is pretty clear from a recent World Bank report on Palestine. The differential between West and Gaza grows as the result of the different leadership.
1995 -2015 West Bank GDP per person grew from $1,500 to $2,000. In Gaza it fell from $1,500 to $1,000. People often quote how packed Gaza is, from 1995 to 2015 the population grew from 550,000 t 1.8m. It does seem an usual response to the crises to have such a growth in population and economically it makes people much worse off particularly since the closure of the all important border with Egypt magnified now by the closure by the Egyptians of the tunnels.
@kona, West bank was in Jordan, Gaza in Egypt. Those with a point to make like to obscure the facts to make it sound like the Israelis somehow invaded Palestine, which of course they did not. They where fighting a war against Syria, Jordan and Egypt all of whom wanted to see them wiped from the face of the earth.
Not true at all. US public opinion is very firmly behind Israel.
You do realise that 95.6% of the world's population isn't American don't you ?
I stick with my claim that "global public opinion is increasingly rejecting this nonsense".
European Jews make sure they have an exit to Israel if necessary..........They don't really trust the European Governments.
Sorry but.......... 😆
Obviously as a Jew yourself you don't really trust the UK government, all after apart from fighting a bloody war to defeat your enemy what have UK governments ever done for you? So have you got your bolthole in Israel just in case David Cameron orders the rounding up of Jews?
And presumably American Jews share a similar fear which explains why they all want to leave and live in Israel. You just can't trust the US government if you are a Jew!
Just as well you ain't black eh ?
You do realise that 95.6% of the world's population isn't American don't you ?
To be fair though, so do the Chinese. There's 20+ percent of the worlds population with just two countries. 😛
What, there's more Chinese than Americans?!?!
Well that changes everything - what's the Chinese opinion of Israel then? That's obviously what really matters.
[url= http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/06/tony-blairs-new-job-shows-how-self-important-and-detached-he-has-become/ ]Don't worry. Everything's going to be allright. Here's SuperTone...[/url]
[s]Again[/s]
Yet again. 🙄
failedengineer - MemberI usually agree with a lot of what Ernie Lynch says, but I have to disagree on the issues of jews being scared of further 'pogroms'. They are.
I'm sure some jews are, in the same way that some catholics think the UK government won't allow them to be doctors because they'd be forced to perform abortions. People believe all sorts of pish. I suppose the religious are predisposed to believing things that aren't supported by evidence.
And to be fair, some religious groups do have people pandering to that fear- viz Theresa May promising extra police protection for Jews, at a time when hate crimes against Jews were falling and far lower than hate crimes against muslims, which had just increased by 50%. The Home Office being another group not overly concerned about evidence and facts but full of belief.
Theresa May promising extra police protection for Jews, at a time when hate crimes against Jews were falling and far lower than hate crimes against muslims, which had just increased by 50%.
Hate crimes against Jews are increasingly markedly. I can't comment on the same against Muslims. I do know no Muslims have been shot dead in the Halal supermarket or killed whilst visiting a museum or Muslim kids shot dead outside their school.
Yes I see increasing numbers of police now outside Synagogues and other Jewish businesses in London. Still nothing like the 20 armed soldiers stationed permanently in each Jewish school or Synagogue in Paris.
@ernie, I think you are, quite deliberately, missing the point. Anti-semitic activity is carried out primarily by the general population, however Jews have a learnt sceptisim of European Governments and their proclamations to protect them. I don't think so many Jews are leaving the US for Israel, it's mostly Europeans going there or indeed to the US where they do feel safe.
Have a look at the coleman blog (JHJ gets plenty of info from there) clearly anti-semitic and an attempt to smear along religious/cultural grounds. A bit ironic given the 1400 kids abused in Rotherham and then ignored by local government, police and social workers, a place I suspect with a very tiny if any Jewish community but hey-ho lets find a "link". Likewise in Oxford.
I would imagine the Jewish community is not putting too much store on Tony Blair delivering anything of value.
The US's opinion matters a lot for obvious reasons. The smaller our military gets the more the US's opinion matters. Ernie, you quoted "public opinion" as if you speak for the majority when it seems to me you are very in the minority on most things we debate on here. Fell free to befriend some Jewish people and ask them what they think about anti-semitism and whether it's on the rise ?
to be fair, if you looked at a one hundred year trend graph of people getting done over in Europe because of their identity, Jews would be high if not highest on the list. it pays to be cautious.
jambalaya - MemberI do know no Muslims have been shot dead in the Halal supermarket or killed whilst visiting a museum or Muslim kids shot dead outside their school.
Or Jewish kids for that matter. Unless Theresa May's jurisdiction has grown considerably.
Hate crimes against Jews are on the increase throughout Europe, apparently. Given all the anti-muslim feeling, you'd think that was a bit odd. However, far right groups are also on the increase in Europe and they 'traditionally' target Jews and blame them for all the world's ills. I've never understood why there is so much anti-Semitism. Unless, of course, it's due to St Paul and Catholicism. You've only to look at the images of Jesus which make him look non-semitic.
@failed - I think hate crimes are on the increase across the board, if you look at studies Muslims are much more unpopular than Jews (typically double the unpopular/popular ratio). However the crimes against Jews tend to be more violent, not least those carried out by Muslim terrorists and/or their suympathisers
ernie you can check the CST annual report on anti-semtic acts, quote from the exec summary;
[i]CST recorded 1,168 antisemitic
incidents in 2014, more than double
the 535 antisemitic incidents recorded
in 2013 and the highest annual total
ever recorded by CST. This is the first time
that CST has recorded more than 1,000
antisemitic incidents in a calendar year.1 This
new record annual total of 1,168 incidents
is a 25 per cent increase on the previous
record high of 931 antisemitic incidents,
which was recorded by CST in 2009.2 The
2013 annual total of 535 antisemitic incidents
was the lowest annual total since 2004 and
represented a 43 per cent decrease from
the 2009 previous record high.
[/i]
The spike in incidents including highest ever monthly total of 314 was correlated with the conflict on Gaza. People clearly think attacking Jews in the UK is just given the conflict taking place in Gaza.
@Northwind, those incidents where all in France or Belgium. The reason Tersa May has increased security is to try and prevent a repetition here.
The hilarious thing is, is that the increasing attacks on jews throughout Europe is just hardening Zionist resolve.
Ernie, you quoted "public opinion" as if you speak for the majority when it seems to me you are very in the minority on most things we debate on here.
You need to read my posts properly and not make things up 💡
I said :[i] "global public opinion is increasingly rejecting this nonsense".[/i]
It is clear that global public opinion is becoming more hostile towards Israel. You haven't denied that preferring instead to give what you consider to be an explanation as to why Zionists don't care about global public opinion.
The very significant change in global public opinion towards Israel during the last 30-40 years is directly connected with Israel's appalling and brutal behaviour.
You can remain in denial if you wish but it won't change the facts.
The very significant change in global public opinion towards Israel during the last 30-40 years is directly connected with Israel's appalling and brutal behaviour.
And Israels appalling and brutal behaviour is a direct result of global public opinion during the 100 hundred years before it.
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jambalaya - Member@Northwind, those incidents where all in France or Belgium. The reason Tersa May has increased security is to try and prevent a repetition here.
And the reason she didn't increase security after [i]actual[/i] arson attacks and attempted bombings on islamic centres right here, is presumably because they couldn't possibly be repeated? It's just simple unequal treatment.
Re CST, they do good work but they seem prone to crying wolf. Frinstance they used a facebook post that said "Gaza is a concentration camp" as an example of "serious online antisemitism". Not the first time criticising the state of israel instantly led to an accusation of antisemitism of course, that's pretty much SOP for many people but it does undermine their statistical reliability somewhat. It makes more sense to stick with official stats.
@kona, West bank was in Jordan,
It doesn't matter how many times you repeat a historical lie, it's still untrue.
It doesn't matter how many times you repeat a historical lie, it's still untrue.
Jordon annexed Jerusalem/West Bank after the WW II and this was recognised by the UK. Israel took the area in the '67 war and Jordan gave up it's claims to Jerusalem only in 1998. This latter move was political at the request of the Palestinians as they wanted to claim Jerusalem for themselves and they knew Jordan was never going to and to try and facilitate the two state solution proposed in the Oslo accords.
At the time of the '67 war the West Bank was in Jordan and had been so for almost 20 years.
Jordon annexed Jerusalem/West Bank after the WW II and this was recognised by the UK.
This is rubbish.
Jordan did not annexe the West Bank after WWII^, not least because Imperial Britain was still occupying at the time. Between the end of WWII and Jordanian occupation, there were some pretty important intervening events: not least UN negotiations for the partition of mandatory Palestine between the Jews and Arabs, plebiscites, the UK buggering off back to Europe, the proclamation of the State of Israel and Al Nakba!
Jordan occupied the West Bank only after the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, and it annexed it only in 1950. moreover its annexation was rejected by all neighbour states (including the Arab League and Israel alike!) and recognised only by the UK (which wasn't a major power in the region and had no skin in the game), Kuwait (an obscure emirate), Iraq (a basket case) and ****stan (an irrelevance half a world a way). no-one else recognised the West Bank as being part of Jordan.
Jordan's occupation of the West Bank lasted only a bit longer than the US occupation of Iraq.
I'm not sure whether your consistently woeful engagement with historical fact on this issue is a cause of your wrongheadedness or just a rhetorical device...
^ okay, well only in the sense that the US invaded Iraq *after* WWII.
Obviously, continued support and supply of arms by Western Governments to regimes with questionable human rights such as Israel, Saudi Arabia and others shows our leaders display a remarkable degree of hypocrisy and deceit.
With that in mind, back on topic with ISIS, this is an interesting read:
According to leading American and British intelligence experts, a declassified Pentagon report confirms that the West accelerated support to extremist rebels in Syria, [b]despite knowing full well the strategy would pave the way for the emergence of the ‘Islamic State’ (ISIS)[/b].
Mention of the RAND Corporation is also of interest given their connections to SITE intelligence, which is often involved in the release of ISIS footage (including the pics in the article at the start of the thread)