[Closed] ISIS threatening Europe.

Really, where?

Colonel Richard Kemp, former Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan and adamant supporter of the IDF, spoke in 2011 about Israeli operations in the Gaza War. He said that a study published by the United Nations showed "that the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in Gaza was by far the lowest in any asymmetric conflict in the history of warfare." He stated that this ratio was less than 1:1, and compared it favorably to the estimated ratios in NATO operations in [b]Afghanistan (3:1), western campaigns in Iraq and Kosovo (believed to be 4:1),[/b] and the conflicts in Chechnya and Serbia (much higher than 4:1, according to anecdotal evidence).

4 civilians for every combatant isn't good.

However, as always there is a bigger picture and aside from the indoctrinated military culture which the Israeli government tries to impose on its citizens, part of the reason Israel faces such criticism is the conditions Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank are forced to live in.

+1

The Iraelis don't help themselves at all.

Those figures are for 'killed in the conflict' not killed by one side or the other. The figures from IBC give around 27,000 insurgents killed by coalition and iraqi forces vs 18,000 civilian deaths caused by them. so 'better' than 1:1 (3:2ish) against 1:1 in the gaza conflict.

This is the most important part of the passage:

[b]adamant supporter of the IDF, spoke in 2011[/b] about Israeli operations in the Gaza War

27,000 is the total number of insurgents killed. Not the number killed by US led forces, I'm pretty sure Shia/Sunni fighting added to that number. Then there is the issue of iraqi insurgent kills being vastly over-inflated by coalition forces and civilian deaths failing to be reported.

Our policies (eg disbanding the Iraqi military) that led to so many civilians being blown up by insurgents, were not that much better than Israeli policy anyway. Our policies showed a lack of care and thought for the civilians of Iraq.

I should also imagine that if we broke down the casualty data to time periods that represented the initial invasion, a condition that more closely represents the 2014 Gaza conflict, the numbers would be fairly similar.

Before we the British public make ourselves feel good by critiquing the Israelis, we should stop to think what we owe the people of Iraq. How can our criticism of Israel be taken seriously on the world stage when we are so responsible for what is now happening in Iraq?

I'm not sure why the thread has been sidetracked onto the subject of how nice Israel is. Predictably Zionists such as Tom_W1987 and jambalaya will come to the defence of the Zionist state repeating Israeli propaganda (Israeli propaganda is among the most sophisticated in the world - a hell of a lot of time and effort goes into it) while equally predictably anti-Zionists like myself will denounce the Zionist state.

The interesting thing is that while Western governments tend (for geopolitical reasons) to be highly sympathetic towards Israel; and Israeli politicians, government officials, spokesmen, etc, are afforded huge media coverage to a level that Palestinians can only dream of, global opinion is actually very hostile towards Israel.

[url= http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/bbc-poll-israel-among-world-s-least-popular-nations-1.525890 ]Israel among world's least popular nations[/url]

Of course Zionists will claim that this simply represents global anti-Semitic feelings, as they always do. But there is little doubt that the real reason is that despite Israel's highly sophisticated propaganda machine and the huge support it gets from Western governments, people across the world see Israel's behaviour as reprehensible and utterly deplorable.

Fair enough. Not making the moral argument just questioning the numbers. Invasion figure are actually better but US only, not IBC or another independent i could find.

Fair enough. Not making the moral argument just questioning the numbers. Invasion figure are actually better but US only, not IBC or another independent i could find.

Yup, initial invasion appears to be 2:1 combatant to civilian, so you're right there.

Afghanistan appears to be a bit of a different story though, with wildly fluctuating estimates of causalities.

I'm not sure why the thread has been sidetracked onto the subject of how nice Israel is. Predictably Zionists such as Tom_W1987 and jambalaya will come to the defence of the Zionist state repeating Israeli propaganda (Israeli propaganda is among the most sophisticated in the world - a hell of a lot of time and effort goes into it) while equally predictably anti-Zionists like myself will denounce the Zionist state.

The interesting thing is that while Western governments tend (for geopolitical reasons) to be highly sympathetic towards Israel; and Israeli politicians, government officials, spokesmen, etc, are afforded huge media coverage to a level that Palestinians can only dream of, global opinion is actually very hostile towards Israel.

Poll seems biased towards white countries, seeing as South Korea is listed one point above South Africa. And by most/least popular country in the world, it means within mostly White or Latin American countries.

You also failed to read my previous post, anti-zionists like yourself are never going to get Israelis to change due to some of the issues that I've touched on.

The Palestinians in Gaza weren't forced to live in in the conditions they face today, they chose it. Israel withdrew, it was only upon the election of Hamas into a position of control with their stated aim of destroying Israel that the wall went up and the borders tightly controlled. Its not just Israel either. Egypt has been clearing a 1000 meter zone on the border, ie knocking down houses in order to disrupt the smuggling tunnel networks. The closing of the Egypt / Gaza border has been much more of an issue for Gazans than the restricted Israeli borders.

As I have posted before the wall went up around Jerusalem as a result of repeated suicide bombers attacking buses and other targets.

Palestinians cannot expect to live openly and freely if they persist in trying to attack Israel. That handshake on the lawn of the White House between Rabin and Arafat was more than 20 years ago. Hamas rejected that and every other peace initiative, even Abbas's position doesn't square with it. As long as that remains the case the Palestinians will live in miserable conditions.

Most of the civilians killed in Iraq have died as a result of sectarian Sunni vs Shia violence including numerous suicide bombings. IS is part of this too.

The thread has started talking about Israel as the country was highlighted as a likely target of IS in the future.

@ernie I see ****stan and Iran are less popular.

So yeah, they are a bit more careful than the IDF.

Palestinians cannot expect to live openly and freely if they persist in trying to attack Israel.

Blaming the victim as ever. The Palestinians have NEVER been allowed to live in peace and the recent atrocity was preceded by a long period of truce on the Hamas side which was ended by the Israelis.

Bringing the thread back on topic, the founder of [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SITE_Intelligence_Group ]SITE intelligence[/url] (who provided the photos in the article at the start of the thread and even managed to release the Stephen Sotloff video before ISIS), Rita Katz is a Zionist who has spent much of her life in Israel.

Also notable are SITE intelligence's ties to the [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAND_Corporation ]RAND Corporation[/url]...

The Palestinians aren't why we're struggling to comprehend the brutality and complexity of IS right now, neither is Israel.

The conflict has morphed since the 1970s, I hate to say "I told you so", but the problem has been stoked by the invasion of Iraq in 2003 and the failure to guarantee civilian lives since.

A huge part of this has been the disruption thanks to conflicts. IS can appeal to poorly educated, disaffected youths from all over the region. The lack of education, jobs and the destruction of infrastructure have all played into the hands of a nihilistic few.

It's not rocket science. IS have made some massive tactical blunders, their whole cultural ethos has resulted in a brain drain of intellectuals, civil servants and intelligentsia to the point that only the most deluded would ever consider life in the IS in any way appealing.

The Palestinians have NEVER been allowed to live in peace and the recent atrocity was preceded by a long period of truce on the Hamas side which was ended by the Israelis.

Hamas fired some 450 rockets at Isreal over the 6 months from Jan to July 2014 and then orchestrated the kidnap and murder of the 3 kids travelling back from their religious school lessons . They knew this would provoke a response which is why they invited journalists into Gaza to witness the "aggression" from July onwards

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/19/israel-faces-fifa-suspension-after-claims-it-discriminates-against-palestinians
The levels to which Israel will stoop is matched only by the levels you stoop in blaming the victims . Its really is shameful.

I shall come round your house and steal your land and assets, give you and your family just enough food to not starve whilst controlling all you access to everything. Obviously if you get a bit shouty or fighty about this you will be the baddy and I will have no choice but to use massive and overwhelming force to teach you right from wrong. Dont blame me you made me do it ...why cann you not live side by side in peace with me...is that too much to ask .....well is it ?

That is what you and your fellow zionists are trying to defend.
Shame on you and history will judge you as it judged those who supported South Africa.

Why do Israeli airstrikes target Syrian government sites, but not ISIS?

The Syrian civil war is a godsend to Israel and her Western allies, as long as both sides keep killing each other with no one side winning then what's not to like. That's why they are happy to fan the flames of war while making certain that one side doesn't get an advantage.

jambalaya - Member

Hamas fired some 450 rockets at Isreal over the 6 months from Jan to July 2014 [citation needed]

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[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2014#Summary ]List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2014[/url]

Palestinians aren't why we're struggling to comprehend the brutality and complexity of IS right now, neither is Israel.

Hamas fired some 450 rockets at Isreal over the 6 months from Jan to July 2014 and then orchestrated the kidnap and murder of the 3 kids travelling back from their religious school lessons . They knew this would provoke a response which is why they invited journalists into Gaza to witness the "aggression" from July onwards

More horrible lies, as you are well aware. There has never been proof that Hamas were responsible for the kidnapping. The whole event was a pretext for Israel to target the unity government, with phony accusations justifying the arrest and murder of Hamas leaders.

@lifer - I believe jamba is quoting the IDF statistics, for what they are worth (I.e. nothing). However, it is instructive that he does so, since it underlines his role as a purveyor of Zionist propaganda.

There has never been proof that Hamas were responsible for the kidnapping.

As for the rocket stats you will have heard Cameron say numerous time that Israel has a right to defend itself against rocket attacks, he is referring to the attacks which took place from Jan-June 2014.

Palestine does not form a rallying call whatsoever for ISIS. ISIS is no supporter of the Palestinians in fact they believe they are as guilty as the Westerners for trying to line their own pockets and to have power by democratic means. ISIS do not believe in any of that. Palastinians do not want to live in a Caliphate under strict Islamic law. The Palestinians in Syria (eg in Aleppo) have fought with the FSA against ISIS. In Gaza the ISIS supporting factions/offshoots are in the minority and are subject to brutal violence from Hamas, they don't want to be threatened.

ISIS's rallying cry comes from Sunni vs Shia sectarian differences

you will have heard Cameron say numerous time that Israel has a right to defend itself against rocket attacks

Appeal to authority

Jambalaya is right though, the IDF have really taken lot of care to protect civilian lives. I mean, look at the impact of their targeted surgical strikes in Gaza.

Oh, and:

EIRUT: The Israeli Police Foreign Press Spokesman, Micky Rosenfeld, appears to have falsified the Israeli government’s claim that Hamas was responsible for the killing of three Israeli settler teens in June, by saying responsibility lies with a lone cell that operated without the complicity of Hamas’ leadership.

The quote from the Hamas guy doesn't actually contradict that. But don't let me stop you regurgitating Israeli propagada

Like one large concentration camp/ ghetto...so sad that after centuries of awful treatment they should then do this to other people.

It says a lot about what it is to be human and not in a good way.

Shame on the zionists and their apologists

Strange how morals are so malleable:

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Like one large concentration camp/ ghetto...so sad that after centuries of awful treatment they should then do this to other people.

@grum if you spend $100m building tunnels under residential areas and you wage a street war in residential areas that's how its going to look. That's what large parts of Syria look like now too.

Blaming the victims again. Typical. It just really puts paid to your constant ridiculous claims of how careful the Israelis are not to hurt civilians. I'm sure next you're going to tell me that if any civilians were killed in that systematic levelling of entire neighbourhoods that it's their own fault for being there.

I not you also failed to comment on the fact that the Israeli police don't believe those kidnappings were ordered by Hamas leadership.

Sheikh Saleh al-Arouri, a senior Hamas religious figure, is heard on the video saying that he “blessed the heroic action” which was “carried out by the al-Qassam Brigades” — the armed wing of Hamas. This action, “the kidnapping to Hebron of the three settlers,” was an “operation spoken of far and wide,” al-Arouri added.

The sheikh was speaking at a conference of Muslim scholars in Turkey.

“There are those who say that it was your brothers in the al-Qassam Brigades, who carried it out for the sake of al-Qassam members who are in jails and who sit in a hunger strike,” al-Arouri continued, according to a Hebrew translation provided by Channel 2.

That's his 'admission that Hamas ordered the kidnapping' - it's far from conclusive that Hamas senior command were aware of or ordered the kidnapping - they have denied it and the Israeli police concluded it was likely a Hamas-affiliated cell acting independently.

Either way it was no excuse for the sickening mass slaughter carried out by Israel in response (before they even had any idea who was responsible). You really ought to be ashamed of yourself for your constant attempts to justify the indefensible.

Re-arming Iraq. Interesting piece with the dynamic between US and Russian arms manufacturers competing to sell weapons. Whenever the US steps back Russia steps in.

grum the rockets had been coming for 6 months and the amount increased dramatically after the Israelis stepped up the arrests in the West bank following the kidnapping. The Head of Hamas in the West Bank (released and deported to Turkey by the Israelis as part of the prisoner exchange) said they had organised the kidnapping. I'll take his word for claiming responsibility.

Civilians are indeed the victims of Hamas's pointless campaign of violence. Hamas intended to put images of dead civilians on our TV screens, that's why they invite in all the journalists and provoke a conflict they cannot possibly hope to win militarily. They are fighting a PR war using their own people as ammunition.

grum the rockets had been coming for 6 months and the amount increased dramatically after the Israelis stepped up the arrests in the West bank following the kidnapping.

Rockets that largely fall in fields - yes it's wrong but it's not the same as levelling whole neighbourhoods full of civilians is it.

The Head of Hamas in the West Bank (released and deported to Turkey by the Israelis as part of the prisoner exchange) said they had organised the kidnapping.

Not really - did you even bother to read the quote I posted? He was widely reported to have said they organised the kidnapping, if you look at what he actually said it's far less clear. But I wouldn't expect you to do anything other than precisely parrot the Israeli propaganda machine.

Civilians are indeed the victims of Hamas's pointless campaign of violence.

It wasn't Hamas that levelled those entire neighbourhoods in Gaza. Those are the precision strikes designed to limit civilian casualties you are always talking about.

3 kids kidnapped, perpetrators unclear - let's start indiscriminately bombing, killing, maiming and destroying the homes thousands of men, women and children, most of whom had precisely **** all to do with it.

And here you are trying to justify it. Sickening.

Also, let's be quite clear - according to Netanyahu the response wasn't about stopping rockets or stopping kidnappings, it was about revenge.

t wasn't like it is now until they started sending suicide bombers from the West Bank or Hamas took control in Gaza. Israel signed an agreement to progress a two state solution, this is something the PA/PLO accept and Hamas rejects

Again shame on your "logic",your compassion and your morals.

There is no doubt the situation is complicated and has "monsters" on both sides. However to constantly say that everything Israel does, which is the killing of civilians in collective punishments ,which is illegal under international law and is morally reprehensible, is both the victims fault and their goal is preposterous , unhelpful and heartless.
Probably nbest if I just ignore your Zionist heartless diatribes

This is a country where a senior political in the ruling party

calls for Gazans to be ’concentrated in camps’ – and then all resistance ‘exterminated’

Or another Israeli member of parliament says this:

The Palestinian people has declared war on us, and we must respond with war. Not an operation, not a slow-moving one, not low-intensity, not controlled escalation, no destruction of terror infrastructure, no targeted killings. Enough with the oblique references. This is a war. Words have meanings. This is a war. It is not a war against terror, and not a war against extremists, and not even a war against the Palestinian Authority. These too are forms of avoiding reality. This is a war between two people. Who is the enemy? The Palestinian people. Why? Ask them, they started.

I don’t know why it’s so hard for us to define reality with the simple words that language puts at our disposal. Why do we have to make up a new name for the war every other week, just to avoid calling it by its name. What’s so horrifying about understanding that the entire Palestinian people is the enemy? Every war is between two peoples, and in every war the people who started the war, that whole people, is the enemy. A declaration of war is not a war crime. Responding with war certainly is not. Nor is the use of the word “war”, nor a clear definition who the enemy is. Au contraire: the morality of war (yes, there is such a thing) is founded on the assumption that there are wars in this world, and that war is not the normal state of things, and that in wars the enemy is usually an entire people, including its elderly and its women, its cities and its villages, its property and its infrastructure.

Behind every terrorist stand dozens of men and women, without whom he could not engage in terrorism. They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there.”

Any of this kind of rhetoric sound familiar to students of history?

Perhaps he's actually sort of right now though, it is a war between people - although it's too extreme in his rhetoric. With the rise of Islamism and how ISIS treats Kurds and Iraqi Christians, can you actually ever see the two sides living together in any sort of peace? The tensions were bad enough in the Palestine 100 years ago, even before the rise of modern Islamism and zionism.

With the rise of Islamism and how ISIS treats Kurds and Iraqi Christians, can you actually ever see the two sides living together in any sort of peace?

Absolutely I can. But first of all the racists and the bigots with their poisonous creed have to be silenced.

I don't see it, after a one state solution occurs it would invariably descend into one side attempting to butcher the others in their sleep as soon as they felt they had an advantage. It's not racism and bigotry that's causing the issues, it's history and ideology. The latter two are so deeply ingrained into the collective consciousness of both sides that it can never be excised.

Leave ISIS to their own devices, no point fighting them, we (the west) will start talking with them in years to come as we did the jews in Palestine.
We will establish a Islamic state, as we did Israel, and then we will trade with them.

We should just cut to the chase and get on with the negotiations, we are a spineless, greedy obnoxious bunch in the west, lets do what we do best and negotiate a trade deal.

It sickens me to look at the myself as part of a western democracy that is in this position, and I can see what we are going to do. I just hate the west for what it is

We should just cut to the chase and get on with the negotiations, we are a spineless, greedy obnoxious bunch in the west, lets do what we do best and negotiate a trade deal.

it's history and ideology

And history tells us that a hundred years ago under the rule of Ottoman Muslims a quarter of the population of Baghdad was Jewish. Things started to change when Zionist racists began driving Palestinians from their lands because they weren't Jewish.

And even more recently Christians could live freely in Iraq. A former Iraqi Foreign Minister and Deputy Prime Minister was a Christian. All that changed thanks to the mess created by Bush and Blair - ironically two Christians.

ernie_lynch - Member

Ernie you do know they don't eat pork don't you?

Aren't they all racists and bigots thinking pork is dirty?

I just had pulled pork for lunch and I like bacon so why do they view me as "dirty" for eating pork?

Pork is good and tasty so what's wrong with pork?
[b]Q1. Your task now is to research / google the reason behind pork consumption prohibition. [/b]

[b]Q2. Also why does a person needs to convert to their religion if one of their partner comes from their religion.[/b] e.g. if you married a Muslim you have to convert and similarly for Jews as well if I am not mistaken. Research that then give me your explanation.

Most importantly why don't they eat pork!

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And history tells us that a hundred years ago under the rule of Ottoman Muslims a quarter of the population of Baghdad was Jewish. Things started to change when Zionist racists began driving Palestinians from their lands because they weren't Jewish.

That's being deliberately misleading, there was fighting before Palestinians were driven from their land. Quite often caused by Muslims who had become increasingly anti-semitic. Eg the Nebi Musa riots and Hebron massacre, which led to an increase in the popularity of zionism, however it wasn't until the Holocaust that Zionists really call for a Jewish state. Not only that, earlier forms of Zionism were mostly a reaction to European anti-semitism as well.

Zionism wasn't about racism, it was about security.

Q1. Your task now is to research / google the reason behind pork consumption prohibition.

I think I might have misunderstood the question and ended up googling "cannibalism in Borneo".

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/carnage-and-cannibalism-in-borneo-as-ethnic-conflict-rages-1082690.html ]Carnage and cannibalism in Borneo as ethnic conflict rages[/url]

What's all that about Chewwy, why is the taste of man flesh so popular back home ?

Tom_W1987 - Member

That's being deliberately misleading, there was fighting before Palestinians were driven from their land.

Is that the first time you have admitted on here Tom that Palestinians were driven from their land ?

IME Zionists are very reluctant to admit it.

So have you thought of some sort of justification for driving people from [u]their[/u] land.....what is it ?

I'm not justifying anything, I'm just correcting you on historical context. People get driven from their land in all sorts of wars, ethnic Germans were driven from their land by the advancing red army - that's what happens when one side is the victor. I do however entirely disagree with what is going on in the west bank and gaza as much as the next person.

Understanding on both sides as opposed to blame is key, of which you have none.

Dont forget if they get a bit upset/protest about this then Jam is here to explain why they deserve any type of punishment you care to meet out as its their fault for not liking you stealing their land.

EDIT: of course understanding and a change of mind set from both sides is key but you wont win hearts and minds [ or peace] by stealing their land and then treating them the way Israel does. Anyone in that state [ any country any religion] is going in being angry to the extent they fight back. The starting point has to be from Israel and then the Palestinians have to reciprocate in kind. The Israel action, given the massive land grabs and horrible treatment needs to be both bold, sincere and in line with International law/boundaries.

i wont hold my breath whilst the west and zionist justify them bombing the shit out of ghettos they created as self defence
those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat the mistakes of history. Thousand of years of repression and poor treatment and all they seem to have learned is how to dish out 😥

ernie_lynch - Member

Q1. Your task now is to research / google the reason behind pork consumption prohibition.

I think I might have misunderstood the question and ended up googling "cannibalism in Borneo".

Carnage and cannibalism in Borneo as ethnic conflict rages

What's all that about Chewwy, why is the taste of man flesh so popular back home ?

Oh that those are [b]long pig[/b] you are talking about that's our neighbour from Papua. They are nice people and they love long pig. Are you now going to condemn them for eating long pig too?

Back to the question on pork consumption. What you say? Research please. Hurry up!

😆