[Closed] Idealism, consumerism, modern life

I'm thinking of buying a van or narrow boat to live in and finding a better work/life balance.
I've only done a few years of corporate work and I'm sick of it.
I'm not very materialistic- the only fancy things I own is bikes.
If I can fit a couple bikes in a boat or van, I think that'll work for me.

My friends been living in his van for 3 years. He does odd jobs here and there wherever he is and surfs the rest of the time. He mainly goes to Spain and France. He loves life. He worked out that he needs £5k a year to live 'comfortably'.

yes, I am planning on living in my van once it is finished, for a while and see how I get on. I kind of look at Bryceland's life and feel envy! 😀

http://www.amazon.co.uk/How-To-Free-Tom-Hodgkinson/dp/0141022027

An engaging read in a similar vein.

or Tim Kasser's 'The High Price of Materialism'

thanks Bill

Bit of quick maths suggests that I need to earn £15k to be 'comfortable'.
That includes everything and savings. I should be able to get a part time job (probably around 0.5 FTE) that does this.

Great post Sazter.

A few things I can contribute -

I spent nearly two years living in a tent in recent years. Not so much of a mid-life crisis as a mid-life awakening. My stuff was in storage and it was harder to come back to it. Depressing even. Yet two years later I'm still agonising over which 'things' to finally be rid of. The iPad and my swiss army knife would be the hardest, where it should really be my paints and brushes. I shall keep them all 🙂

Consumerism is a far-reaching sickness, there is no doubt about it in my mind. As we're increasingly defined by what we buy and wear - so we spend the hours of our lives attempting to buy these things. Where do we exist inbetween? And how do we relate to each other?

I'm with you Malvern Rider. I'm sick of sitting with mates at the pub and everyone having their phone out. Why bother being there..

How did you wash/iron clothes? Where did you shower? Guessing you were at a campsite.

I will try to say something more later, but in the meantime this thread gets a 'thumbs up' from me. 🙂

Malvern - I am getting rid of most stuff before I make the move to my van, I have already reduced my furniture to what I need for the short term, I will be storing some sentimental stuff at a friends, photos and the like, but I don't want 'stuff' to define me.

[url= http://vandogtraveller.com/ ]This guy[/url] is a bit of an inspiration for my plans. My work have a shower in the basement so I can use that once I move from my flat.

I do often wonder when I come back from a two week holiday with a small suitcase what all the "other stuff" in my house is actually used for.

But then equally I do wonder how much of this goes on...

https://xkcd.com/610/

Great Thread!

Sitting at my desk of my boring IT job that vandogtraveller is pretty inspirational.

Ive also ordered the Tom Hodgkinson book.

I've done a quick calculation and realised that I need to earn £100k+ to live comfortably

Excellent, thanks. FWIW yes you can change. I've made quite a few changes since getting into Mindfulness but its really easy to slip into old habits - e.g. being a slave to the phone - because your immediate environment is geared that way.

Kindle book ordered!

Theres a certain irony in casting away all your possessions to live a nomadic life.

Something idealistic really...

Fwiw , i spent a summer living in my van many moons ago. What is fun for a few weekends soon becomes tiresome when your doing the same thing as you were before but still going to work.

Different when your on the road. I mean i think nothing of touring by bike for a few weeks.... But wouldnt dream of selling all my stuff and living with what i can carry on my bike /pitch /strike camp every day, but i know folk who have

I often had dreams of ****ing off , reading into the wild put them into perspective a bit - as much fiction as it may be.

Then theres the flip side , id like to have family one day - do i want to bring them up on the road or do i want them to grow up integrated with society and make their own choices how they want to live their life, i want to have a stable family home for my kids to grow up in- and from there ill take them traveling as much as i can by varying methods.

I mean at the end of it all once the vans had it and you need a new one but dont have two beans to rub together - what you gonna do ? Do what most of the folk i met living the dream in nz did when their bus wasnt road worthy ? Park it up in a motorpark and live there for the rest of your days ?

I lived in a T2 for a year with Madame. We worked from/in it in France and the UK. Winter was cold and damp, and leaving it parked all to frequently resulted in it being broken in to.

I lived in a rally car on the office car park for a few months. The boss didn't mind as there was a project to finish. A lonely experience.

We lived in a room in our business premises for nine years. It became very comfortable with a shower, camping stove, sofa etc. Junior was born while we were there. No commuting was nice.

When we started a business we traveled around France on bikes to find a suitable town then camped in a wood while going through weeks of formalities before we got the keys to the premises. By the end it was late November, monsoon time in SW France, and every morning we had to break camp, load the bikes and head for the library or swimming pool for a clean up before meetings. People were very kind, letting us dry stuff on the radiators in the library and offering to store our bikes/gear in safe places.

And now we live in our dream house which wouldn't be most people's dream house but it's home, and a short walk from Madame's place of work. Looking around me there are three guitar amps, more guitars, a leather sofa with extendable legs rests, TV, hi-fi, computers, printers - piles of stuff. Which we are slaves to if you wish, I wouldn't swap it all for the T2.

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In consumer society there's only two states of being.Envy or addiction.

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Two words for you, Project Mayhem. Who's with me ?

You need a bit of freelee the banana girl...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easterlin_paradox

My dad did it in later life. Him and his partner would empty the house, put all their stuff in the shed and my nan's spare room and head off. They'd rent our the house and that brought in enough money to pay for the trip on a tight budget. They did quite a few epic journeys including cycling round the world. My wife has just edited the diary of his last (unfortunately very last) trip where they drove to the bottom of Africa in an old 4x4. Here if anyone is interested: [url= http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B013J8DXJO/ref=tmm_kin_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=&sr= ]Driving Dark Africa[/url]

If you are young, the idea of unfettered travel is attractive. For most people the attraction fades as you get older. Just a fact of life.

I used to have a house and a job and a fiance and all that jazz. Old cars, motorbikes etc. Then there was an 'incident' and a chain reaction of events...

Now I've got a van and everything I own in the world fits inside it. I've traveled all over the UK and Europe in it. I've got a beautiful, amazing girlfriend and we've had a lot of fun in the last five years.

To be honest though, for all the days I'm not riding around in the Alps, which is the vast majority, I'm sick as a chip. If someone offered me a tolerable job and a living wage I'd snap their arm off. I don't want 'stuff' but I never know whether I'm coming or going and it's exhausting.

Money only buys 'stuff' if you spend it on 'stuff'. You can also use it to buy time and adventure.

What most restless people need is a properly flexible job, IMO - freelance, contracts, etc.

Your posts sometimes sound like my life over 25 years ago, Sharkattack. You don't need a tolerable job, you need an idea for self-employment that will capitalise on all that you've learned during the van years and before.

Money only buys 'stuff' if you spend it on 'stuff'. You can also use it to buy time and adventure.

Very on topic...

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/27/spend-less-on-stuff-experiences-materialism-experientialism

I am going to take from these responses that I just need to follow my dreams, it may be wonderful, it may be sh*t but at least I tried. I will be living part in the van and part at my partners flat whilst I get used to it all. The van will have good heating etc. I hope to get more bike time and outdoor time in the coming months then we both plan to head away for a few weeks/months to mainland Europe and see what happens. I don't expect nirvana but I don't want to look back and wish I tried. Life is too short.

You can live a comfortable life in the suburbs without selling your soul to consumer society. My parents have a good life but are very old skool when it comes to buying new things.
Chucking it all in and going to the other extreme of living in a van sounds a tad extreme.
A narrowboat with power hookup in a scenic residential marina, though, does sound appealing.

What most restless people need is a properly flexible job, IMO - freelance, contracts, etc.

I couldnt agree more. Too many people end up in careers they hate...because they are not suited to the concept of the career in the first place.

I am all for a simpler life with less "stuff" but (in my personal opinion) living in a van is not a long term solution.

You will still need money to pay for food, fuel, insurances and a number of other costs. It will mean that you have to work at some point and as you have no fixed abode, I would guess it is hard to get stable, well paid work? You will also be cramped, cold, wet, worried about the security of the van/bikes etc and I would imagine the novelty will wear off fairly quickly.

Yes it is a great adventure and worth doing at some point - I spent a year with a backpack and no real plans other than enjoying myself. It was a brilliant, once in a lifetime experience but not something I wanted to do for the rest of my life.

I think if you want to opt out of the rat race, the best thing is to spend a few years working hard at a career, make a name for yourself, get some good contacts and save some cash. Then get yourself a piece of land somewhere you like and use your savings/career/contacts to live how you want to live, you can try to be self sufficient by growing food, keeping animals etc .

If you live frugally, you could contract for 3 months a year earning good money and be "free" for the other 9. It also gives you some money to experience the things you want to experience and you can dip in and out of "modern life" as much or as little as you want. Its about working smart, not hard.

The above is probably not very well worded and just my opinion...

Just to be clear I am not planning on living in a van for the rest of my days, it is a short term way to save some money in my current job and allow me to travel a bit next year.

With all these ideas of less traditional lifetsyles/careers - what happens when you're too old to work and your income in the years before has been enough for subsistence only?

Genuinely curious, as I like the idea but struggle to get past the thought of what happens when the earned income stops if it's only been at a level to keep you on the road in the van?

self sufficient by growing food, keeping animals etc

If you think a house and job are ties you don't want, animals and crops are a step in the wrong direction. The only things I grow are fruit that is in season when we are around to pick it. Every attempt to grow anything else failed because we weren't around to water and tend it.

Friends have a small holding which he doesn't need because his wife earns a good income teaching. He has never been away on holiday and she only goes for a week despite having several months a year off. The rest she ends up working with him. They are slaves to ducks and corn.

With all these ideas of less traditional lifetsyles/careers - what happens when you're too old to work and your income in the years before has been enough for subsistence only?

Genuinely curious, as I like the idea but struggle to get past the thought of what happens when the earned income stops if it's only been at a level to keep you on the road in the van?

That's the question I always shout at the telly when I am watching the Kevin Mcloud living in the middle of nowhere series. What happens if you are too sick or old to walk the 2 miles to collect fresh water for the day.

On the flip side, having a job/career and spending more than you earn and not planning for your future gets you to roughly the same place - you just have less fun getting there.

If you think a house and job are ties you don't want, animals and crops are a step in the wrong direction. The only things I grow are fruit that is in season when we are around to pick it. Every attempt to grow anything else failed because we weren't around to water and tend it.

Friends have a small holding which he doesn't need because his wife earns a good income teaching. He has never been away on holiday and she only goes for a week despite having several months a year off. The rest she ends up working with him. They are slaves to ducks and corn.

Completely agree and that's the crux of it. Pick your evil, if you don't want to work for a big corporate company and be on that treadmill then this is an alternative. It is a different type or work but its still work.

"That's the question I always shout at the telly when I am watching the Kevin Mcloud living in the middle of nowhere series. What happens if you are too sick or old to walk the 2 miles to collect fresh water for the day."

theres a program on national geographic - i catch it at my parents now and again.

Its about exactly this, old folk in alaska struggling with the toils of being off the grid in their 70s/80s making the monthly 2 day trip into town for their only interaction outside of him and her in the wood hut for the month.....

**** THAT.

Having lived well out of civalisation in the bottom of a scottish glen for A year , im out everything's twice as hard as you think it will be -and while at first its novel. it soon grows weary. spending 3 hours of your week to go get the shopping (they deliver into the wilderness so long as you dont live up a 5 mile dirt track thats mostly tractor friendly - as in they refused to come back to ours ! ) , realising your out of milk and having to make a trek to the shop.

then the snow of 2010 came and we were walking 6 miles just to get to a road that may or may not be drivable.......for 3 months.

was a lovely place to be in the summer though and was the picture everyone thinks of about wilderness living - but you still had to go shopping at some point and collect the mail from the village.

I think you can be happy in a consumerist society without being consumerist and falling into all the traps that are set and without rejecting it entirely. You just have to decide what level of participation suits you, and stick to it.

It means living life to your own values which can be hard when other people can't cope with your ability to think for yourself, but it's very possible.

Self-employment or contracting helps me a lot - I can cope with the corporate environment so long as I don't have to belong and conform to it.
Walking more and driving less helps - it gets you out into the real world
Reading instead of watching TV or spending time on Facebook helps - spend your time learning rather than comparing yourself with other people
Spending spare time helping other people rather than shopping helps, you're making a contribution rather than passively consuming 'stuff'
Spend time with thoughtful people who share your values. If people you think are your friends prefer to spend time on their phones when you're out with them, do you think you really have that much in common?

Think carefully about what 'stuff' you do buy e.g. go for good quality shoes and clothes that will last years and years rather than buying the latest fashion. Buy second-hand so you're not just consuming new resources all the time. Learn to make stuff for yourself, especially food. Home-made bread is much nicer than anything you can find in the shops - and it's really not difficult!

I have some really nice bikes - riding bikes make me very happy and a nice bike is more pleasant to ride than a cheap bike. But my car is 10 years old and I barely use it. I spent £3k on my car and £10k on my bikes over the years - that seems like a better balance than £200 on a bike and a car on credit @ £500/month

On the flip side, having a job/career and spending more than you earn and not planning for your future gets you to roughly the same place - you just have less fun getting there.

And therein lie the western world's debt problems I think?

I think it comes down ultimately to whether you are risk averse or prepared to take a gamble. The wealthiest people I know took a gamble, failed several times but eventually did well. I imagine I will follow a more steady path, in the knowledge that the bank balance will never be huge but the risk of it being nothing will have been much lower throughout my/my family's life

I've done a quick calculation and realised that I need to earn £100k+ to live comfortably

Wow, how do you manage with so little?

😉

You can live in a consumerist society and not get completely sucked in by it all. You don't have to own a car, you don't have to keep buying a bigger house. You don't have to buy the latest gadgets / clothes. Plenty of middle aged hippies in my street (although Cambridge is not exactly middle of the road normal).

Hmm.. no you don't have to own a car, but they can really help you get a lot out of life. Like many things, it's what you do with it that counts.

Owning a car doesn't have to mean stretching yourself to afford a prestige car so you can sit in a traffic jam on your 30 mile commute to your soulless job, as people seem to think.

It can, but it can also mean keeping a cheap but decent runner so you can get out to the wilderness once a month, or road-trip across France etc etc.

You don't have to have the latest gadgets, no, but a decent budget smartphone is a great way to stay in touch with your friends and family cos we're always told they are what's important.

brooess - good points there! Especially about spending your time learning (rather than TV or FB), and volunteering to help others.

But, work / jobs aren't always a bad thing. I'm fortunate to have a full time job that is mentally stimulating, where I spend my time with a lot of great people, and in a small way contributes to 'social good'. Rather than avoiding work, maybe it is better to focus on spending your time on work that you enjoy, and provides other rewards than only money?

Other than that, it is quite simple - buy less, experience more! If we all lived just a little bit more by that principle, I think we would all be a bit happier - it doesn't have to be a case of "all or nothing".

I was recently asked what I wanted for my birthday - simple answer: time spent with the people I love, outdoors in the hills and playing on the beach, laughing lots 🙂 As the saying goes - "one life, live it ... now!"

BillMC - I have a copy of "the high price of materialism" from the library so will be reading that over the coming days (probably weeks knowing me). Looking forward to it. Too nice a book to take away with me for a muddy weekend of bikes though!

I definitely own 'more stuff' than I need but there is a balance. I've done the live in the car thing and it has helped me be better balanced.

I think it's possible to be happy and not overally materialistic but still living the 'regular' life. It's important not to over stretch yourself, be it financially and work/life balance.

I've previously worked in a field where all my customers were multi millionaires to billionaires and I learnt alot of lessons from them. Some of them completely overstretched themselves while others really knew how to enjoy themselves and had a good work/life balance.

I think at all ends of the spectrum you get people who simply don't know how to enjoy themselves and when not to fall foul of the social pressures of a consumerist society.