[Closed] How to make UK PLC great again

I dont know of a politician that deserves my vote

Well let someone else decide then.

Or better still, turn up and spoil your ballot paper. Staying at home just makes them think you're one of the embarrassingly vast minority that thinks the X-Factor is more important than the government of their country.

Or better still, turn up and spoil your ballot paper.

Accept the economics and politics of the world have changed, less in our favour and work out how to survive in the new world order

Then turn it to our favour then. Why do people just accept what has been set out for them by others?

Aargh! Forget it, someone else can do it

That's exactly what cheekyboy thinks!

I'd start by banning all that shite on TV for a start.

You're not going to get rich quick by being a great singer or a model or by winning the lottery, you'll get rich by working hard and making something of yourself. Build a business, rely on yourself, help your staff, grow, make stuff.

It's actually insanely easy to rebuild the economy, trouble is, there's too many people who think they're smart, but are stupid, in charge.

spoil your ballot paper

A weekend at Camber Sands ?

We need to recognise that manufacturing is the foundation that other commerce can be built on

Face it, we're good at innovation but we tend to miss the opportunity of making good of our innovations. What we are historically good at, is getting drunk, building boats, setting sail to conquer stuff and pillage everything on the way..... so we should stop being in denial about it and start to look further afield to do it. 😛

We've just invented a new engine that could be the future of spacecraft.

So I say we monopolize the invention and do what we do best, colonise shit and do a one way mission to mars. We should clone some humans, brain wash them into rabidly patriotic british citizens (so they don't go all American on us) and send them to colonise and start terraforming mars for queen and country. Give them a few nukes that could target orbiting space craft (Russian, Chinese, American...whatever) and keep the ability to turn them off at our discretion and we're sorted.

Then once there is a base with say a space elevator to reduce return costs.....and once the worlds minerals have run out we could sell the stuff we mine on mars back to everyone at hugely inflated prices.

We do well when we invent something new and aggressively capitalize on it.

My family and I visited the ss Great Britain today, In Bristol. If you think about it in historical context, it's totally bonkers technology - we'd call it "innovation" these days. It turned out to be the great great great ancestor of all modern ships, and is therefore most important ship of the modern age.

I have no idea how IK Brunel persuaded people to bankroll his "great experiment". But I felt immense patriotic pride at his achievement. Important as it is, this was just a fraction of his great body of work.

We need to acknowledge and be proud of our technical prowess. To inspire more IK Brunel's.

How can we make the UK PLC great again like in the days of the victorians?

zimbo - Member

Aargh! Forget it, someone else can do it

That's exactly what cheekyboy thinks!
Posted 7 hours ago #

Hey, someone can tell what I am thinking via the medium of a forum ....

My point is very simple, extremely idealistic and would never happen but its a point and its mine.

Our political class have failed us..............hence the reason we are having this discussion.

A vote for a politician is like a biscuit for a badly behaved dog, they will never be our servants as long as we continuously grant them licence to continue every 5 years, a huge non vote would press home our dissatisfaction and lets face it we have vry few politicians we can say we are proud of at the moment.

What am I going to do about it ?
Well I am not a politician nor do I want to be, but I have a perfectly legitimate right to criticise the ones we have.

The banking system needs completely restructuring! It now forms a parasitic entity which preys on the 'real' economy, to the total detriment of our wider society.

Look at the utter insanity of the Cadbury's buyout. RBS, a bank owned by you, the taxpayer, provides the finance for a leveraged buyout by Kraft, an American multinational.

The first thing they do, despite assurances, is close down British production and move it to Poland. So.... We've all effectively subsidised the loss of a load of British jobs, and will now shoulder the subsequent welfare bill.

But hey ho! a few City financiers made an absolute fortune in consultancy fees! I wonder how much tax they paid on their deal? My money is on 'next to nothing' or in fact 'nothing'.

I'm sure they've had their cheque books out for kitchen suppers with Dave though

This kind of madness has to stop!!!

Kick Danny Dyer, Dave Courtney and every other bell end who comes on the telly going "Int being a hard nut brilliant!" down a disused pit.

Replace all bouncers with bobbies from the armed response unit + a few of the sniffer dog / land shark bunch. Pay them £60k a year and move them between cities so they're unlikely to be bribed.

In fact, any corruption in public office and you're out on your arse. Stripped of your pension, the works. And while we're at it, pay politicians more but stop buying them free houses. Buy a load of property in London and put the MPs up in govt houses.

Then bang up the few hundred people in each city who are responsible for the vast majority of crime. Pareto innit. Keep them in until they're 40 and they've grown out of it. If they re-offend, back in for life.

Stop messing about with student visas. Higher education is one export we're absolutely world class at, and if they stick around then we've not only had years of £20k fees, but also a highly educated person who can make some money.

After that's done, we could get a few eminent economists to come on the telly and explain that the economy isn't a zero sum game, and that forcing old folks to retire will actual reduce the total productivity of the economy rather than making a job for an unemployed 18 year old.

Binners i wouldn't be so quick to attack Kraft, Cadbury's was already closing Somerdale and shifting production to Poland. Yes kraft did say they would try and reverse the closure so not guilt free, but it was Cadbury that made the decision.

cheekyboy

a huge non vote would press home our dissatisfaction

We have a huge non-vote every election - somewhere between 50 and 80% generally can't be a*sed. Since when has that made anyone in power sit up and think?
That specious "let's all not vote" theory is the laziest, most unproductive argument. Like I say, turn up and spoil your ballot paper - those at least get counted, and if we had 30 million of them...

And I think I can tell what you think from your comments, as I'm pretty sure you can tell what I think from mine.

How can we make the UK PLC great again like in the days of the victorians were we where seen as leaders in engineering,

Lol.

How about we undo 100 years of development in the rest of the world? And then start taking advantage of them by conquering it all? That should do it.

The world is a completely different place now.

I thought maybe things were getting better until Gordon and the bankers cocked things up. Would be good to work out how to deal with public sector pensions (over 1/4 of all council tax goes on them) and the vast amount we spend on the unemployed. They need jobs but what jobs? Coal mining and unskilled manufacturing? They're done where the wages are least and not sure people have the appetite for them here these days. Years ago poor people would move to the jobs wherever they were in order to survive but that would be wrong now, as a society we're happy to pay for them.

I'll probably move to France one day, not much different to here but at least they like cyclists. 😉

Read a history book....it never was great...it was always fudge and cockups and half hearted bollocks

konabunny's right

Victorian period was great if you were Henry St. John Smothington-Smythe of the 2nd Cavalry with colonial campaigns interspersed with the occasional season at your pile in Hampshire. It was a bit less spectacular if you were John Porter, the porter from Portsmouth, toothless and with a gangrenous foot

but extrapolate that to the present age. Nothing's changed. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and the rich have us blaming the chav, the doley, the immigrant when in fact they are the symptoms, not the cause.
We should alleviate the uber-wealthy of their ill-gotten gains, and more importantly, their ill-gotten power, and redistribute it amongst the world's (and Britain's) poor and rebuild a land where fairness and not richness is the common man's dream. The Victorians' grandeur was built on the back of poverty and exploitation here and abroad - let's not idolise that.

redistribute it amongst the world's (and Britain's) poor

Yeah why not? They did that in China and Russia.

redistribute it amongst the world's (and Britain's) poor

Yeah why not? They did that in China and Russia

No they didn't. They ostensibly adopted a system which should have done that but was badly mismanaged and failed completely. Where they do do it more successfully is in the northern European countries, where the gulf between rich and poor is lowest.

cheekyboy

a huge non vote would press home our dissatisfaction

We have a huge non-vote every election - somewhere between 50 and 80% generally can't be a*sed. Since when has that made anyone in power sit up and think?
That specious "let's all not vote" theory is the laziest, most unproductive argument. Like I say, turn up and spoil your ballot paper - those at least get counted, and if we had 30 million of them...

And I think I can tell what you think from your comments, as I'm pretty sure you can tell what I think from mine.

Don`t see any real reason for your aggression in response,

We have a huge non-vote every election - somewhere between 50 and 80% generally can't be a*sed.

Good lets hope the figure gets bigger........ to blame the voter for voter apathy is simply wrong, its on a par with blaming the consumer for not buying.

ps....... "like your use of the word specious" hope your Sunday is as pleasant as mine, cheers.

No they didn't.

Well Mao took the land from the rich - he also killed them but we wouldn't do that. Right?

Edit - the land was put into the ownership of local communities.

Of course they didn't redistribute the wealth in China and Russia after the revolution they just concentrated it in the new ruling classes. The current reliance in the economy of the populace buying foreign made goods providing enormous profits for Philip Green has to stop, we need to begin to produce things in this country (accepting the last year we exported more things than ever before) but paying people to be unemployed when it would be cheaper - financially and socially to have them working for a living wage making stuff, creating local economies, keeping money local and not exporting it to Monaco to pay for ridiculous 60th birthday parties.
I heard recently that the model for the last 10 years of outsourcing to China and closing UK manufacturing is failing as quality is patchy, costs have gone up significantly and delivery lead times are too long.
Personally, I choose British produced product first, followed by European, with chinese near the end of the list.

voter for voter apathy is simply wrong

The only people who will ever be blamed for voter apathy are the voters; no-one in power will ever read that as dissent, because it suits them not to.

No aggression intended, honestly! I'm just not very diplomatic in my tone, which is why I'll never be a politician! It's all just debate, and I apologise if it sounds personal. Enjoy your day...

Perhaps our loss, is other peoples gain?

Seems to me that people in China have seen an enormous leap in their living standards over the past 20 years of 'state controlled capitalism'

Same throughout most of asia - living standards (and life expectancies, child mortality rates, all the other key indicators of improved lifestyle - have been going up.

hundreds of millions of people raised out of poverty, thanks to the evils of capitalism and the free market.

are there still inequities and deprivations? of course there are, and terrible ones at that but lets not pretend to ourselves that our petty first world failure of capitalism, that means I can't afford a new iphone pales into insignificance compared with the benefits that the system has already brought to billions round the world.

They ostensibly adopted a system which should have done that but was badly mismanaged and failed completely

Spectacularly failed. They took a backward pre-industrial agrarian economy with a completely uneducated workforce and turned into an industrial and military superpower, which within 35 years was able to, in the words of Winston Churchill, [i]"tear the guts out of the Nazi war machine",[/i] and which within a further 20 years was 10 years in advance of US space technology, placing satellites and human into orbit, all whilst finding time to create the world's first national health service which led the world in many areas. Yep, badly mismanaged and failed completely. Makes you wonder why the West was so scared.

.

Of course they didn't redistribute the wealth in China and Russia after the revolution they just concentrated it in the new ruling classes.

Factually incorrect. There might have been concentration of power, but not of wealth. Certainly nowhere approaching the levels which existed in the West or exist today in Russia. Lifting the ceiling on maximum earnings was one of Gorbachev's must vaunted perestroika reforms (although despite the myth Gorbachev was not the originator of perestroika)

a return to victorian britain?; workhouses, no votes for women, infant mortality at 50%, etc
I think we can do much better than that

sadly our political class seems devoid of morality
the failure to hold themselves to account after the expenses scandal (a handful token prosecutions aside) and the constant drip of sleaze coming from no.10 (Ive just watched cameron lie his arse off on andrew marr)
It all shows that the current system needs reform
benefit fraud and dishonesty runs from the top to the bottom in our society, the fix needs to start at the top before the bottom can tackled.

Investing in education, science & technology is the way to protect our future, sadly our view is too biased towards capitalism , banking and financial services as the only way.

Surely the answer is to change the name, if UKPlc isn't performing well, just rebrand. Simples.

politicians are by there nature power seekers, they will read everything in the way that suits them. IF you do not vote they will not read it as a vote against, but rather choose to blame it on the voter for not engaging.

They can not understand that a system where you have the choice of 3 identical parties might not be the best way forward.

Mind you, voters can not be trusted to vote in their own long term interest. The solution?????

politicians are by there nature power seekers, they will read everything in the way that suits them.

By their nature ? That really is complete nonsense.

Still, it's very trendy and fashionable to come out with crap like that........so carry on.

mudshark - Member

I thought maybe things were getting better until Gordon and the bankers cocked things up. Would be good to work out how to deal with public sector pensions (over 1/4 of all council tax goes on them)

Pish

Yep, badly mismanaged and failed completely. Makes you wonder why the West was so scared

I don't decry the Soviet Union's achievements, but they've returned to capitalism. Che Guevara warned that would happen - they based their system on wholly capitalist incentives.
I think we need need a new conscience, not just a new economic and political system. A new moral definition of success, instead of a financial one, is what may save us.

Set up a company yourself and create some jobs for others and wealth for yourself and taxes for the hospitals, schools you think society should have etc
Or set up charity to deliver some of the social good you want to see (or volunteer and start making the contribution you want to)

Debating the whole affair on STW on a wet Sunday won't get you too far!

extrapolate that to the present age. Nothing's changed. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and the rich have us blaming the chav, the doley, the immigrant when in fact they are the symptoms, not the cause.

I don't decry the Soviet Union's achievements

Pish

Pish indeed! Where do they get these facts from?!

Set up a company yourself and create some jobs for others and wealth for yourself .......

You haven't heard that there is a crises ? A crises which effects demand ?

How do you expect to increase demand ?

When you've figured that out perhaps write a letter to the Times. And maybe stand for parliament.

It's a remarkable position to argue that nothing has changed in the UK since Victorian times but that meritorious achievements were made in the Soviet Union

You're taking those remarks out of context

Nothing's changed in this country in terms of the economic hierarchy, in that the rich prosper while the poor suffer. Societally, yes we've improved vastly, although those deformed posh kids in charge now seem hell bent on reversing that.

How do you expect to increase demand ?

Who said increase? How about uncover existing but currently unmet demand? That's called generating economic growth...

And what crisis? Developing world is increasingly wealthy and seeing massive economic growth, sell to them?

The point of all my posts on this thread is that we need positive attitude, energy and a bit of DIY rather than being defeatest...

How do you expect to increase demand ?

brooess - Member

And what crisis?

Ah, I see.

Wasn't the iphone4s launched during the current credit crisis

It's a point, but being a cynic I wonder how many of those phones were bought on credit which the owner can't really afford, spurred on by advertisers who suggested you're a duffer if you don't have one of their overpriced gadgets...

Pish

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1508474/26pc-of-council-tax-goes-on-public-pensions.html

Well whatever, all pensions should be money purchase in order to know liabilities up front. But we're still ****ed!

Shoe/cloth repairs? We have evolved into a disposable society, can that change? Often the labour cost of repairs isn't justifiable when compared to the capital cost of a replacement. In many ways we are so much better off than we were in previous centuries - just not relatively compared to the rest of the world when we could pretty much plunder at will.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1508474/26pc-of-council-tax-goes-on-public-pensions.html

Hmmm...a six year old story...
The pensions contribution varies from authority to authority - some are 5%. Some may have been 25%, if calculated by a right wing paper's right wing consultant. Some authorities' schemes are financially very healthy and require no plundering of the public purse to anywhere near the extent the Tory pedagogues would have you believe.

returning to fuller employment is critical and it can be done easily at no cost..
we have the largest public sector in the world the nhs is the 5th largest employer in the world and the worlds largest pension provider.

the salaries of many has exploded expotentially at no reflection of thier contribution or value or private sector value pensions are paid to people who are still employed.

if there was a salary cap of 150k pa for all public service roles all the monies left over could be used to employ thousands at 20k pa enhanced public services
if those in public service could not draw any pensions ( accept ill health) before state retirement age this would free up millions of pounds to be spent on more public service roles

oh non of the best staff would work for only 150k? as they are allegedly the best of the best then surely they can plough thier own furrow in the private sector for thier real worth.

would public servcies be left at the mercy of less able staff .. no not at 100k pa would patients suffer as their medical care was administered by professionals whose income was limited to 150k? where elese would they work?