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Has anyone mentioned folding cot yet? You will get asked.
Whenever our place gets damaged it’s always Air BnB guests.
Dishwasher is a must
We leave ours stocked with teabags, dishwasher tablets etc
Has anyone mentioned folding cot yet? You will get asked
Even when it's up 100 steps, and has no parking? I wouldn't fancy lugging a pushchair and baby up there..
It will be a two bed flat with a big sitting / dining / kitchen. We will be aiming for a top end sort of let – and charge accordingly. ( NOT air B&B – proper professional letting agents lined up)
sure you've got your reasons but I think they are misplaced, if you've never used them you probably don't realise just how AirBnB works from both the holiday maker and the owner's perspective. If there is genuinely a shortage of properties in an area it won't matter you have no reviews early on, and for Edinburgh I'd expect things are booked relatively short notice. How much of your anti-AirBnB bias is coming from the agent you are using who sees them as competition. There's no need for an AirBnB to have any more negativity than any other holiday let (can insist on week long, choose who you let to, etc), in which case its just about the Americans profiting and not paying tax. Your agent is probably paying advertising to google or others who is just as guilty! In my experience recently AirBnB have been pretty good at handling the Covid stuff (as a customer), certainly better than a private let we have this summer.
The intended market would be for two couples but could work for families as well – but its 100 stairs to get into the flat.
Babies/toddlers are maybe not ideal with 100 steps but teenagers would be fine. I certainly wouldn't want to limit yourself to just pairs of couples travelling.
6 place settings enough? or more?
At least as many as you claim to sleep. I'd probably buy Ikea and get some spares so the cleaner can replace breakages.
Cafetiere do or do we need some fancy machine?
Not where you are.
Obviously a big fridge but a freezer as well?
Yes for high end, especially if you want week+ lets.
TV I guess but just freeview enough?
yes, probably not essential in bedrooms as someone else suggested so long as you have wifi that reaches there. You don't need sky/virgin etc, but a smart tv or chromecast (with easy to follow instructions) so they can use their own account is a plus.
Music system is hard wired with speakers in every room. I intend to leave it in and have it on bluetooth
How precious are you about it. People are thick.
Dishwasher? We don’t have one and it would need some remodeling of the kitchen
Washing machine I guess – tumble drier?
D/W desirable; W/M will be important if you want week+ rents - and I'd have thought 2/3/4/5 week lets during the festival were not that unusual. Tumble drier not essential, if there is space to hand out one load. Iron, ironing board and hair dryer.
Internet access a must I guess
I would say pretty much, and you probably need to contract for 12 months anyway. If your router doesnt offer standard and guest networks might be worth upgrading.
One of the bedrooms is going to be huge – 5.5m x 4m – should we put a single bed in there as well for kids? King size beds or twins or ordinary doubles?
A fold out or futon would make sense.
Dining table and chairs – if so 4 or 6? ( gets a bit crowded with 6) Same with the sitting area – 3 seat sofa – plus how many armchairs or a 3 seat and a two seat?
If you are saying it sleeps N it should seat N to eat and in the evening too. A bugbear of mine is 4+2 arrangements which only seat 4. The extra 2 seats don't need to the same size as the others, e.g. 2 stools, or fold out seats that can go in a cupboard.
Yes to microwave, probably replace the battered one you have, although if its simple to use and functional nobody will care.
Parking not essential in Edinburgh - only the insane drive there anyway.
Ikea furniture is fine.
There are nice touches that I suspect someone like you could really help with - a little booklet listing good local pubs/cafes, and great walk/cylce routes etc. It doesn't need to be exhaustive but imagine you've never been to Edinburgh and compare the holiday you would have with your "friend" TJ to show the good spots, and finding it all for yourself.
Forget the prosecco etc (unless someone says they are coming on honey moon etc) its a tenner wasted because whilst people will smile they won't pay extra for it. Basic essentials however, like Tea, Coffee, Sugar, Some soft of milk, make a big difference if you turn up at 10pm and want to settle in rather than hunt for tescos. If you want to go further, biscuits, bread, little pots of jam, or maybe some of those packets of cereal so you have the first breakfast sorted too. But that would be very unusual. What does piss me off is not having salt and pepper. A few herbs and spices, some oil, etc is quite common.
Have you got somewhere you can go for x-mas and new year? those are premium weeks in Edinburgh too. If you could be away english feb 1/2 term and easter too then you could really maximise it.
Have you considered the possibility that Covid is still an issue next year, and you might need to self isolate for a cough at short notice, or some travel options may suddenly stop with little notice, or the flat may need decontaminated?
Thanks Poly. some good thoughts.
Its not just the discussions with the agent about air B&B. I have big ethical and practical objections to them thus will not use them ever. Same as I will not use a load of other companies. they actively facilitate regulation breaking and tax avoidance.
The music system should be fine - speakers are all mounted high on walls bar one pair which will be replaced with a cheaper pair. I will only leave the amp plus the bluetooth thingy.
Covid could bugger things up for us obviously. Some years we will be letting over summer, some partly over winter. It depends where we are going. Most years sept for the festival should be available. New year we will not let it probably - too much risk of folk using it for parties but that we will take advice on.
I'd rather try to behave ethically than maximise profits
A comfy sofa. I’m amazed at how many places I stay at prioritise practicality over comfort. I spend the entire time thinking ‘who the hell chose this sofa?’ and resolve never to return.
Definitely a dishwasher - wouldn't consider a rental without one but do agree that doing the washing up can be therapeutic....on a camping trip!
Having stayed at a top of an apartment block in Paris once, with small kids, where the general feeling of exposure to fire risk was very noticeable - both the wife and I decided we were done for if it happened. Rickety wooden stairs, no visible escapes, signage,instructions etc so recommend you need to provide this visibly and clearly.
not just the discussions with the agent about air B&B. I have big ethical and practical objections
You're doing holiday lets in a formerly residential area, taking advantage of demand to make some money and distorting the housing market in ways of which we're all well aware (my youngest son's being priced out of Edinburgh atm fwiw), I can't see you have any particular ethical high ground?
I can’t see you have any particular ethical high ground?
Are you new?
This is TJ.:)
john - I think you missed the bit where I explained why.
We will be going walkabout for months at a time. We cannot let it for people to live in as we will want it back after those few months for us to live in. So its not taking a home out of stock for locals.
I agree what you state is an issue but its not what we are doing. What we intend is to let our home out while we are on the other side of the world and live in it again once we return
I could make a fortune doing holiday lets on my other flat but do not. Its let at below market rent on a long term basis. Once we no longer need to live in the flat part of the year it will either be long term let or sold.
Edit - so if it is not being used for holiday lets during this time it would be empty
How much of your anti-AirBnB bias is coming from the agent you are using who sees them as competition
AirBnB are veiwed like some sort of baby robin murderers in Edinburgh, the stigma and amount of stick TJ would get on here will be a factor.
In reality they're no different to any other holiday letting company, all of them will operate systems that limit their tax liabilities, AirBnB are just easier to poke, big corporate bastards that they are.
They are different NO beer. NO need using their platform to ensure the flat is up to standards, no need to ensure it meets local regs. If you use a reputable local agent its different. For example the ones I hope to use insist all flats for holiday lets are equipped with fire alarms up to HMO standards even tho not HMOs, that all safety certificates are in place, proper insurance is in place and that local planning rules are respected.
Also as I will be out of the country I need an agent and one I trust to do things properly
You’re doing holiday lets in a formerly residential area, taking advantage of demand to make some money and distorting the housing market
We will be going walkabout for months at a time.
To 'go walkabout' is your motive, enabled by your doing a typical holiday let ethics of which aren't altered by your motives.
What about your neighbours? If you have six people rotating through on a weekly basis, limited opportunities to leave the place perhaps, and alcohol / holiday atmosphere it's likely to get noisy.
Still not getting it John
I understand your concern but while we are away the flat is either short term let or empty. Its not taking stock off the market for locals.
It will also be let fully within what are likely to be strict conditions in Edinburgh.
while we are away the flat is either short term let or empty
Applies to all the other holiday lets in the area. Is yours different?
Flaperon - thats a concern. However the layout ( offices below, neighbours not badly affected by noise) Lets me hope its not an issue and again why I will be taking steps to ensure its not a party flat. If it becomes an issue then it gets stopped. its not going to be 6 adults - its either 4 adults or one family - beds beyond the two twins / doubles will be for kids only
No john it does not. Most of the holiday lets in the area are 12 months a year. Not people doing like us.
So the difference is 6mths vs 12. This is not an ethical difference.
No. However you don't want to understand
"No" is not a persuasive counter argument.
fwiw I own a very holiday lettable house in a honeypot area which mainly does stand empty (because cba letting, not desire to get into business side of things or have folk in our house). I can say because you can't get a car to within 150m of the place it's unlikely we're depriving a local family. I can explain my motives for ownership. Meanwhile there's a coastal village with few locals left. I don't kid myself I'm on a different ethical plane.
So thats yuur second home?
What you are failing to understand ( or maybe just trolling) is by doing what I intend I am not removing a property from the local housing market ( as you appear to have done). Because it will only be empty for a few months at a time it cannot be let to folk to live in as we want it back to live in ourselves.
Thats the moral difference - we are not taking a property out of the local market. If you holiday let all year round for years on end you are.
Like you seem to have done.
Anyway - thanks for the good advice folk have given me. I'll stop answering those who just want to slag me off with no understanding but I do really appreciate the advice
Second the cleaning stuff comment. I have had several let's with work where there are no cleaning products left. I am not going to start cleaning ovens but I have ant to be able to do dishes and wipe surfaces. I don't really want to buy loads of chemicals and only use a tiny bit.
Lots of good suggestions up there and, like everything else, people have their own preferences. Not too fussed about a bottle of wine on arrival - although that is a nice touch. Some biscuits or cake or some chocolates are always a nice treat to see when you walk into a place. As others have said, it's not required and visitors won't knowingly pay extra for it, but is a simple, nice touch that provides a perception when you first walk in. We have stayed in a lot of holiday lets and had mixed experiences. As someone else posted above, for me, a decent bed (well, mattress) is absolutely critical. I hate it when we go somewhere (and holiday lets in this country are generally not that cheap) and find a horrible, soft mattress. Washing machine essential, dish washer not so. Having some basic stuff in the house is good (salt, pepper, condiments, some cleaning agents, washing up liquid, a few dishwasher tablets) and perhaps leaving the visitors some milk is welcome. I would say a decent TV is pretty critical as is some way of providing access to more than just the basic free to air channels. Not saying you need to provide Netflix or Prime or Sky or anything like that, but access to more than just BBC1,and 2, ITV, Ch5 and Ch 4. Have information on the appliances you have that can be read and understood by most people and, again, as mentioned above, some sort of personalised "things to see / be aware of / recommended places to eat".
To be fair, we're not your target audience as for a holiday let we will be heading somewhere much nicer than a city centre. Usually somewhere coastal. Maybe you know the market well but a holiday rental in a city is not something I would ever be considering. Certainly not high end. And with 100 steps with no parking - even if I was looking for a city centre place, those two things would be putting me off straight away. As would a place that allows pets. Good luck with it.
Its not just the discussions with the agent about air B&B. I have big ethical and practical objections to them thus will not use them ever. Same as I will not use a load of other companies. they actively facilitate regulation breaking and tax avoidance.
TJ - I get it. I'm not a huge fan of them as a business, and like Uber am surprised that nobody in the UK has had a credible go at competing with something "British", what they do is not magic - its just an advertising/selling platform.
I'll not waste my time debating the ethical issues with you. You've obviously got a gripe there, and I doubt I can persuade you to reconsider them, even if I point out that they are the platform and a lot of the adverse perception is things in the control of the landlord and I've used them in 6 different countries and honestly believe we had a net positive experience/benefit for all involved. I'm sure the advertising solutions your other company is using are all 100% ethical, premium tax paying, regulation enhancing companies 😉
For the practical aspects though I'm not sure why you think there is an issue there. Its precisely that which has made it a success with both landlords and holiday makers. As someone who has little experience renting holiday homes, I wonder what you perceive as the practical problems AirBnB would bring you? And, given your target market will expect you to be as easy to engage with as AirBnB whether you understand the market. So ignoring the flat for a minute, here are things you really need to be able to provide in 2021 otherwise people will revert to competitor booking sites (the only exception will be in the highest demand times/areas when the mainstream sites have priced themselves out the market).
1. I want to be able to search for properties by area on a map without knowing that The Shore is part of Leith and Leith is on the Northside of Edinburgh, etc.
2. I want to be able to see property availability in real time (and preferably filter them on the map by my dates).
3. I want to see lots of pictures of the property, inside and out
4. I want a standardised way of describing what I am getting; so I know if there is a sofabed in the living room, free parking etc.
5. I want to see real time pricing - ie. the price for the dates I am interested in not have to go any work it out in a table, or check
6. I want to be able to book quickly and easily, preferably with the click of a button
7. I want to be able to pay easily, not fanny around with cheques or bank transfers
8. I want to be able filter for properties that would be available if I can change my dates slightly (e.g. if I come Fri-Fri rather than Sat-Sat), or to seeing it would be little extra to add one or two days more on.
9. I want to be able to turn up, and leave at almost any time of day/night.
10.Confidence that if it all goes tits up there is someone big enough to fall back on for a refund.
If your current provider can't offer that they are missing market share, and once the buyer drifts on to AirBnB or similar platforms that satisfy their desires they won't be rushing back. I suggest when lockdown is over you book something on AirBnB and see how simple it is (I've got a voucher code you can have as a new user - if you are worried about helping their profit), then compare to the provider you are thinking of using.
Personally (and I think for any city break market) I think you should consider the long weekend market - you are going to employ someone to do the changeovers anyway. But if you really want to stick to 1 week + that is not that unusual on AirBnB. I think you can price yourself out the stag party market, and use the AirBnB platform to vet potential hirers just as they screen properties.
You may not be worried about the money, but you are investing to set this up and if it can bring 0.8x your pension or 0.4x your pension, it is difficult to dismiss.
As an alternative: have you considered how you will deal with friends and family type requests? (especially given your audience here of "pseudo-friends")? You could put them through AirBnB to build up a few positive feedbacks so that if the agency do a duff job you can revert to AirBnB with the advantage of some good ratings?
The folk I have in mind provide all that and more - plus the security you know the flat is all up to the correct standards and is legal and a personal meet and greet any time of day. They will meet you at the airport or at their office or at the flat and you will be taken to the flat and shown how everything works.
The agents will also clean and change bed linen twice weekly and deal with any issues.
They have very high occupancy rates in the holiday lets they have. Some fully booked a year ahead
Part of the point about air B&B is that there is no way of knowing or enforcing the standards and legality of the flat. Plus they make it very easy for the owners to avoid tax. so you get properties that do not meet the correct standards for rentals - indeed the agents I intend to use insist on a level above the mandatory
I will not be booking anyone thru air B&B.
and a personal meet and greet any time of day.
As a guest, I'd consider this a negative
Really ebygomm?
To me that was one of the big advantages that someone will be there to show you the flat when you arrive.
As a guest, I’d consider this a negative
+1 you have to stick to plans for arrival times etc. A keybox is just less faff for everyone.
Prepare a PDF that has all the info guests need and email it to them the day before they are due to arrive.
As oldtennisshoes says, having to arrange an arrival time is a faff I'd prefer to avoid. As long as there's instructions that mention where the rubbish needs to go, heating,Wi-Fi codes, any other specific instructions and contact details there's no need to have someone meet me in person.
I am surprised at that
I'd far prefer to meet a real person
Thanks for the input
tj - they are right. Its a stress - your flights delayed by 4 hours and you are trying to phone someone internationally in a second language to explain, not sure how they are going to react to you arriving at 1am. Or you are coming past the pentlands or glentress and decided it was a lovely day why not stop for a couple of hours bike ride - oh we told TJ's guy last week we would arrive at 3pm... best keep going. I suspect I haven't conveyed the subtleties of the points I was trying to make - so turn up any time, and check out anytime - literally meant anytime, with no prior agreement. If they are insisting on F2F handovers what other subtle differences in the flexibility do they miss.
I'd love to mystery shop someone who claims they will show you how everything works, and who offers this service across multiple flats with the kit provided by their owners - either they are amazing and genuinely remember all the quirks of all their flats, or they are basically reading the script normal landlords leave for the holiday maker.
Perhaps there is a market for the sort of sophisticated offering you are proposing. I've never had sheets changed twice weekly in a self catering place - that could feel a little intrusive - so the cleaner is going to appear on Tuesday, but I've no idea when, so if the weather is crap and I decided to stay in bed for some holiday "relaxation" suddenly the landlord is dictating my holiday schedule. Perhaps I am a skank but I don't change my own sheets twice a week at home so why would I on holiday.
Part of the point about air B&B is that there is no way of knowing or enforcing the standards and legality of the flat. Plus they make it very easy for the owners to avoid tax. so you get properties that do not meet the correct standards for rentals – indeed the agents I intend to use insist on a level above the mandatory
I think that should read:
Part of the point about air B&B is I've heard that there is no way of knowing or enforcing the standards and legality of the flat. I think the onus should be on the agency not the government to enforce standards Plus I want to pay more tax than I need to and they make it very easy for the owners to avoid tax which I want to imply is evasion because I'm not doing the same. so you get properties that do not meet the correct standards for rentals – indeed the agents I intend to use insist on a level above the mandatory, and I also want to spend money on stuff the Edinburgh City Council does not require me to, purely because the agency have unilaterally decided I should.*
* I'm finding it ironic that the forum's biggest protagonist for not wearing a helmet because there is no evidence to support it and its not law, is also the protagonist for holiday let owners being required to do something the law doesn't require and is presumably based on gut feel not evidence.
I think its fine to say you want to use an agency that takes all the hassle out of everything, not have to manage someone to deal with bookings, changeovers, the boiler not working when you are away etc, but be honest you are using them for the better service they claim to provide you - not because the flat is better for the occupier if they tell you to be HOMO compliant rather than you making it HOMO compliant for yourself.
The agents I have in mind only run 5 holiday lets - mine would be the 6th. They have also got a normal rental agency. Thats why they are prepared and able to provide such a high level of service. They aim to be the top of the market which is where I thought I should aim as well
I'll take on board the comments tho. Its why i asked on here.
Owners not paying tax on rental income is evasion. Letting standards are an issue. I have seen properties on air B&B that are not safe. ( A pal wanted to use one for a lads weekend) If you have a local physical agent its much harder to ignore standards if the agent is halfway decent - cos the agent would also carry some liability
That agency will charge a fortune for a personal meet and greet service and a twice weekly clean.
By the time you have paid their fees, you won't have much left.
Not sure what you mean by "legality of the flat"?
I know that the standards for holiday lets in England are not very onerous. Is it different North of the Border?
https://www.holidaycottages.co.uk/owner-advice/holiday-home-legislation
Agent would take 30% of income for providing that service. No flat fees ( plus whatever air B&B would charge if I used them
Standards for properties here IIRC are that they should have all needed safety certificates gas, elec, fire alarms etc
In the above case where a pal was organising a lads weekend and wanted to use an Air B&B I suggested he asked about safety certificate. None available.
Standards for properties here IIRC are that they should have all needed safety certificates gas, elec, fire alarms etc
Exactly the same as any rented property, long or short term.
TJ - have you applied for Planning Permission for the change of use for your property?
top end
Yeah you need a freezer - or at the very least, an ice machine/compartment in the fridge. No ice for G&T?
Big beds.
Decent coffee machine - pods, if you must. Not cafetiere though.
Dishawasher? You know the answer to that 🙂
TV in the bedroom? No. This is top-end, not bloody Premier Inn.
Internet obvs as guests will need it to drive the speakers-everywhere sounds. Ideally, no f*ing password please, or at least something easy to type like "holiday" not some stupid ultimate-security string of robot puke, no-one needs that after climbing 100 stairs with all their luggage.
Nice bisuits on the table 🙂
Edinburgh is changing its rules on holiday lets - I will be applying for the relevant permissions of course. Its likely to be significantly more onerous than the standards for normal lets. Its not for a year yet ( assuming cornona does not bugger up my plans)
with Air B&B properties there is no check that standards are met. with an agent there should be
In my case even if using air B&B I would still need an agent I trust and someone do do the changeover cleaning. the agent I have in mind will advertise on air B&B if I insisted - but then thats the air B&B fees on top of the agents fees
I am genuinely grateful for the views of folk as this is not something I am used to using. I find the meet and greet thing really interesting. One time I did book a self catering appt in France for a couple of days we arrived at 9pm and had a 2 mile walk to the flat. We had instructions on how to get in ( which worked) but I was very anxious about it. Having a meet and greet would have removed that anxiety Thats me but its interesting that to others on here that is not the case.
The meet and greet would horrify me. That's the last thing i'd want to face after travelling.
We rent the same property in Cornwall almost every year and, after a few years, the owner cut us our own set of keys to save us driving into the letting agents in the centre of town to pick them up and drop them off.
Get on booking websites / trip advisor , find properties similar to yours and read the reviews. You'll soon learn what's important to people.
Good call PP
I find the meet and greet thing really interesting.
Just make sure they have your phone number and be willing to answer calls, so you can talk them through any issues. You know your flat far better than any agent.
things like isolation switches for cookers, heating controls etc. They are sometimes the things that have been a problem for me when using self catering apartments.
top end
Are you sure? I had a look on AirBnB and there are some stunning apartments in Leith. Allocated parking and lifts included. Not cheap mind.
We will not be able to answer phones or do emails - at least not reliably. We will be trekking in the high Andes, that sort of thing. We need to be completely hands off
Errmmm - thats a lot cheaper than the ones the agent we have in mind runs and its not a very nice flat. You get one decent sized room that is a kitchen / sitting room and the rest of the rooms are tiny. I know the development
and its not a very nice flat.
It's not really about nice though.
It's about passing filters on booking websites.
That flat would have made it through the first round of my search filters whereas yours wouldn't. The parking and the stairs would have stopped it.
I'm sure your flat is lovely but you need to be utterly dispassionate about it if you want to take a grand of someone's holiday money.
thats a lot cheaper than the ones the agent we have in mind runs
....because he's skimming 30% right off the top?
No - because they run high end stuff on small scale! Its also a poor location sandwiched between an industial estate, a main road and a shopping mall - and over a mile from the shore.
We would be competing with this sort of thing more but without the overblown decor. £235 a night. This is the top end around here - this and more expensive.
https://www.homeaway.co.uk/p6776334
I’m sure your flat is lovely but you need to be utterly dispassionate about it if you want to take a grand of someone’s holiday money.
I do get this. Its a quirky flat but the intent is to have it at a very high standard and the location is fabulous - the flat I linked to is across the road from us.
Again - I really do appreciate the feedback folk. Its very helpful
Its a quirky flat but the intent is to have it at a very high standard
TJ - I have stayed in a lot of self catering places when I have been working away as I much prefer them to hotels.
One of the key things is how well equipped they are.
For £235 a night, I would expect quite a lot, even in the now Gentrified Leith. Looking at that price range, you can expect en-suites, parking, etc.
You can't debate whether you need to offer a dishwasher and a washing machine. You absolutely do. TBH, the twice weekly cleaning would be a nuisance and the twice weekly linen change unnecessary IMO. If you want to, offer them as an option, otherwise you are wasting money. What does the agent charge for a turnaround? £80?
Go all out. Check all the listings on AirBnB and make sure you offer all of the things they do in your price range if at all possible. High chair, cot, posh coffee machine, big TV, etc.
Can you fit a log burner?
Some of the things you might not like, e.g big TV. However 90% of people will want a TV and expect something large. Not many people discount a place because they have a big TV but they will if it doesn't.