Stunned at the revelations being released today
?????
Look at the news coming out of the files that have been released.
Pigface - MemberLook at the news coming out of the files that have been released
[url= http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/ ]http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/[/url]
Staggering reading.
And both Leaders appologising, "no regrets" Tony take note.
Sounds like some pretty despicable stuff in the cover up, not to detract from that but can someone explain to the hard of thinking how
The police and other agencies screwed up big time (and covered it up later) but I'm presuming SYP and the ambulance service weren't at the back of the crowds pushing forward.Liverpool fans "neither caused [b]nor contributed to the deaths[/b]"
Surely [i]some[/i] of the members of that very big crowd contributed in [i]some[/i] way to that awful situation.
Ironically this opinion poll happened to be released today :
[url= http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=50014&c=1 ]Poll suggests Sun is least trusted newspaper[/url]
Kelvin MacKenzie (Sun editor) apology:
“Today I offer my profuse apologies to the people of Liverpool for that headline. I too was totally misled. Twenty three ago I was handed a piece of copy from a reputable news agency in Sheffield in which a senior police officer and a senior local MP were making serious allegations against fans in the stadium. I had absolutely no reason to believe that these authority figures would lie and deceive over such a disaster. As the Prime Minister has made clear these allegations were wholly untrue and were part of a concerted plot by police officers to discredit the supporters thereby shifting the blame for the tragedy from themselves. It has taken more than two decades, 400,000 documents and a two-year inquiry to discover to my horror that it would have been far more accurate had I written the headline The Lies rather than The Truth. I published in good faith and I am sorry that it was so wrong.”
is anyone surprised that the police, the sun and the government happily pushed a load of lies on us?
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You really are hard of thinking arent you.
I don't think anything coming out is coming as any great shock to anyone. Its clear that plenty of people in authority have done everything in their power to stop this all coming out. And succeeded for far too long
I wonder if the Sun is holding its front page for a full grovelling apology tomorrow, penned by Kelvin McKenzie?
not really helpful, I've seen crowds get out of hand and people get hurt without any authoritarian presence let alone screw ups. I tried to put it delicately, I don't bear any grudge against liverpool fans, I've not read any in depth stuff about hilsborough, just confused as to how [b]zero[/b] blame can be appointed to them, I was asking for info.You really are hard of thinking arent you.
<edited for clarity>
“Today I offer my profuse apologies to the people of Liverpool for that headline. I too was totally misled. Twenty three ago I was handed a piece of copy from a reputable news agency in Sheffield in which a senior police officer and a senior local MP were making serious allegations against fans in the stadium. I had absolutely no reason to believe that these authority figures would lie and deceive over such a disaster. As the Prime Minister has made clear these allegations were wholly untrue and were part of a concerted plot by police officers to discredit the supporters thereby shifting the blame for the tragedy from themselves. It has taken more than two decades, 400,000 documents and a two-year inquiry to discover to my horror that it would have been far more accurate had I written the headline The Lies rather than The Truth. I published in good faith and I am sorry that it was so wrong.”
Here's a revolutionary idea Kelvin. As an editor of a national newspaper it may have briefly entered your mind before, but... how about actually checking, and verifying your facts? Before splashing them across your front page with the fairly unambiguous headline
[b]
THE TRUTH[/b]
🙄
Kelvin MacKenzie (Sun editor) apology:
Well I'm not convinced that apology is the word that I'd use for that text. "Weasely attempt to shit the blame" seems more appropriate.
Interesting to see what the BBC do after this:
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This will also give levenson even more clout when he puplishes his report
the tabloids are doomed, (hopefully)
massive cover up, lots of lies being told,and those responsible got huge pay offs and larger pensions,they should all be taken off them and be put back into the kity,to pay for all these enquiries.
DONK they contributed in the sense they were there but the mistakes were all someone else fault- they did nothing wrong and that is the point we have all know for years.
If say 10,000 people turn up to watch SSUK and they get funelled down a tunnel with no way out into an area to small for that number and the authorities treat it like a pitch invasion and then cover it up and blame the fans THEN in what sense would we blame them for being there?
Please keep out of football threads you know less about this than you do about road bikes 😉
You know those things that have been exposed today as lies and smears? You can stop believing them now.
164 police statements where altered, or where re written, now who gave the orders for that, the more you read the more corrupt and cruel the whole thing becomes
23 years for the truth to come out, 23 years to long.
I'm not surprised at the revelations - they were fairly well known anyway - but I was disappointed at one spokesman for the families talking on the radio who still seemd to want to pin the blame on Fatcha's government, which from what I've heard has been cleared of direct involvement in the coverup.
I'd like to think this helps the families of the dead and injured gain some "closure", but I fear that the lawyers will be circling for all sorts of criminal and civil cases for many years to come
Well I am surprised at the scale of the deceit. The systematic modification of 100's of Police and Ambulance statements is beyond what I thought had taken place, ie a top level an attempt at a cover up.
MoreCashThanDash - Memberbut I was disappointed at one spokesman for the families talking on the radio who still seemd to want to pin the blame on Fatcha's government, which from what I've heard has been cleared of direct involvement in the coverup.
the scale of the coverup is immense and youd think the government of the time must have had an inkling?
how about an apology from Doris
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Finally, theres just a wee bit of justice. I hope that those who did commit criminal acts on that day do now get what's coming to them.
Time for an apology from Boris "Drunken fans were to blame" Johnson and the Spectator magazine.
Edit: What Klunk said ^^^.
Here you go:
"I am sorry, too, for the hurt and dismay we have so evidently caused in our description of Liverpool.
"There may well be Liverpudlians who still answer to the characteristics in question, just as there are all over the country. We should not have generalised.
"And we should clearly not have blamed drunken fans at the back, when this cause was specifically ruled out by the inquiry report.
"Anyone, journalist or politician, should say sorry to the people of Liverpool - as I do - for misrepresenting what happened at Hillsborough.
"I repeat that the leader made a serious point about risk and sentimentality, and the culture of blame, and I stick by it. In so far as it imposed an outdated stereotype on the whole of Liverpool, and thereby caused offence, I sincerely apologise."
Boris Johnson: 19th October 2004
from the report
131. Examination of officers’ statements shows that officers were discouraged frommaking criticisms of senior officers’ responses, their management and de?cienciesin the SYP operational response: ‘key’ words and descriptions such as ‘chaotic’were counselled against and, if included, were deleted.
132. Some 116 of the 164 statements identi?ed for substantive amendment were amended to remove or alter comments unfavourable to SYP.
orders where also given to blood test all the deceased for alchol levels even the children.
Read a sunmmary of the report here and dont scream at the screen at the lies, and injustice that has been covered up for so long by so few.
http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/105704598?access_key=key-k37i6qcj7x3u2n2mfmp
Aside from the 'tragedy' , in other circumstances that would be corporate manslaughter, the cover up and its organisation should show any that were unaware the lengths that the organs of the state will go to.
After 23 years its removed by time to some extent, but friends of mine are still campaigning to expose state skullduggery from 40 years ago involving the shrewsbury pickets and MI5, the papers are said to jeopardise national security-- a catch all that a so called democracy hides behind.
borris always was a muppet
he only appologised because michael howard told him to and this was before he was the london mayor for buffonary and so beloved of the public
"First of all, on what the mayor of London or others have said, I think this report is important because, as I have said, people right across the country, whether they are in positions of power and influence or not, this now is the proper explanation of what happened and people who thought it was something else need to come to their senses and realise this is what happened."
David Cameron, Today.
164 police statements where altered, or where re written, now who gave the orders for that, the more you read the more corrupt and cruel the whole thing becomes23 years for the truth to come out, 23 years to long.
What really bothers me, in fact it really really worries me, is how ingrained misrepresentation, lying and cover ups are within the police force, and the mechanisms of authority in general. How often does this actually go on in a small way every day in every case where they actually expect to be able to deceive and fib there way out of every cock up, no matter how monumental and tragic.
Sadly nothing I have heard or read today surprises me.
It might have been 23 years ago but seeing the reports on the TV that day it clearly showed it was the police that let fans in to the football ground in an uncontrolled way, it was the police that kept the ambulance service away from the dying. Then over the next few days reported that fans were to blame, to cover their and the ground mangers ineptitude. A view supported at the time by a very compliant press. The real sad thing is nothing has really changed, the police have been shown to be inept several times over the last decades, the press are arm in arm with the establishment.
On the positive side I firmly believe the families will now pursue the individuals that failed in most basic of care for another human
It makes very disturbing reading.
Policy at the time in my view was driven to corral spectators/potential lunes rather than providing controlled access to a sporting event.
Many many lessons have been learned from that period, these being the removal of pens to enclose supporters.
Its a case in point where perceived views of people in power get it very very wrong a lot of the time, list the failures of administration, government over the years, the list is so long.
What maddens me is the cover up.
Saying we got it wrong should have been the starting point all those years ago.
For the years in between the insults to the memory of those who died and the families is unforgivable.
would be a refreshing change, standard MO for a lot of institutions seems to be close ranks, deny everything and obfuscate as much as possible til they can worm out of any responsibility.Saying we got it wrong should have been the starting point all those years ago.
So who was at the back of the crowd pushing if not the fans? What would have happened if there had been no police there?
Perhaps you should read the report before commenting .
thisisnotaspoon, obviously youve never waited for a train or bus to arrive at rush hour, where the most gentle and polite old biddy becomes a raging tiger trying to get on the bus or train.
People will push and shove to get where theyre wanting to get, its a natuaral ingrained thing.
If there where no police there they couldnt have covered up for all those years, and be responsible for a huge backlash against them that is starting now.
thisisnotaspoon - MemberWhat would have happened if there had been no police there?
Well, since it was the police that opened the exit gate and directed so many fans into the overcrowded pens...
Even 20-odd years ago, and even without the disclosure we've got now, the Taylor Report concluded that the main cause of the crush was the crowd control failings. Unbelievable that people today are[i] still[/i] trying to blame the fans.
Perhaps you should read the report before commenting .
Got as far as the end of the summary, doesn't really say anything new that wasn't known/suspected already.
The police let them in, then didn't act perfectly when some of the pens became overcrowded. I think that's a more important point that rarely seems to be mentioned? SWFC resisted repeated calls for safety at the ground to be improved, things like segregating the turnstiles to count people into the terraces and the size of the gates between the pens and the pitch, it didn't meet the contemporary standards. The police covered up their own mistakes, but that doesn't mean they were entirely to blame, they weren't batton charging the back of the crowd which was pushing to get in.
obviously youve never waited for a train or bus to arrive at rush hour, where the most gentle and polite old biddy becomes a raging tiger trying to get on the bus or train.People will push and shove to get where theyre wanting to get, its a natuaral ingrained thing.
Exactly, it's peoples fault, the police were there to try and prevent it but failed. Blaming the police for it happening is like blaming them for a bad car crash, they're supposed to try and prevent them but it's one of the drivers fault, unfortunately the innocent guy in the other car dies as well.
Blame them for the cover up, fine.
Blame them for not making perfect decisions, fine.
Blame them for other peoples actions?
It was an accident waiting to happen, with paid "professionals" supposedly in place to protect and not actively contribute to a shocking disaster.
I remember being at too many matches around that time when you were treated by scum by the plod.
Normally perched on horses looking down their nose at you while on over time.
That and tight pens being squashed like a piece of soft fruit.
If there had been an admission some years ago then perhaps and its a big ask, the families could have perhaps begun the grieving process sooner.
Deliberate faking of evidence, truly shocking
The report says that the fans were not responsible for the people getting killed inside the ground. It also says that the police opened the gate to the stand where folk were killed.
Yes there is an element of semantics to it, but if the gate hadn't been opened by the police nobody inside the ground would have been killed.
People may have been injured outside the ground if the gate hadn't been opened, but I doubt any would have been killed given the less confined nature of the space.
There had been near fatal crushes previously at that stadium in that stand.
There was probably no single error that lead to people being killed, more a chain of bad decisions.
For gawds sake, people don't have to push for pressure to build up in a crowd, particularly in a bottleneck, particularly not down a one-in-six descent into a caged pen.
yep humans - crap design, of the myriad of factors that day I don't think that's one you can pin on the SYP, question is, can you pin it on humans?For gawds sake, people don't have to push for pressure to build up in a crowd, particularly in a bottleneck, particularly not down a one-in-six descent into a caged pen.
not so sure now
